Mojo
Mostly harmless
Yes, you are missing something: the "shroud" was manufactured over 1,200 years too late for it to be authentic. You can't have first century bloodstains on a 13th century cloth.
Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming
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Yes, you are missing something: the "shroud" was manufactured over 1,200 years too late for it to be authentic. You can't have first century bloodstains on a 13th century cloth.
Do you laugh to yourself when you accuse us of jumping around too much for you to follow and reply?
Okay, what does this have to do with the evidence for blood, the evidence for an Xx, or what an Xx is at all? Let alone the shape of the "blood" stains, the shape of the image of the body, and the carbon dating?
Perhaps you are attempting to provide evidence that Christ was a male, so an Xx must produce a male. Well, I am a biologist, and I assure you that an Xy produces a female (Turner Syndrome) and an XX produces a normal female. But I've never heard of an Xx, so perhaps you need to tell me more about that before I can understand the relevance to this fanciful reconstruction of an angelic young Christ boy. You might also check into the reconstruction method to understand how it doesn't confirm the accuracy of the Shroud (it would do the same for any other painting) and if the "boy" part of the reconstruction was an assumption on the part of the reconstruction team that led to a male interpretation. Look at the image of the boy and tell me that it could not be a girl. But that is just adding more nonsense to something that began as nonsense.
Monza
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A. C. and D. You've said these multiple times. Now would be a good time to present the evidence, or at least stop promising it until you dig it up. It may well be different from what you think it was.
B, The Xx idea is, at least, truly novel for me and I applaud you for providing something new in your postings. But I've never heard of such an idea before, I don't have any idea of what you are describing, and given its relevance to a demonstration that the blood truly came from Jesus, I am surprised that I never encountered it before. So a citation would be both highly required and very appreciated. Thanks.
Jabba
Philosopher
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Blood/Sudarium
- Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo, and
- https://shroudofturin.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/alfonso-en.pdf
- Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudarium_of_Oviedo, and
- https://shroudofturin.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/alfonso-en.pdf
Belz...
Fiend God
How many cloths did they use on him ? Was his divineness seeping out and they were trying to avoid staining the carpet with a permanent image of him ?
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
Nothing there about chromosomes? Why did you post it then?
Did you read either of these papers yourself? From the nature of your quotes I don't think so. I also don't think that you really understand what even what your secondary quotes really mean or how wrong they are. Normal blood has silicon? Only if Jesus had ruptured silicon breast implants would silicon be in his blood (more evidence of an Xx producing a female perhaps?). Detectable aluminum in blood even today, when aluminum is much more commonly used in our environment? Very rare, and usually a sign of aluminum toxicity. Conversely, if a paint pigment, should it have detectable manganese? No: most forms of ochre do not have manganese, although some ores have relatively small amounts of it.
Again, given your interest in this matter, I strongly suggest reading the original publications so you know exactly what they do and do not say and can look at the quality and strength of the conclusions. I also suggest that if you don't already know, that you should research the links between the results and the conclusions. At least some conclusions you cite, as I indicated above, are simply wrong and are not accurate interpretations of the actual experimental findings. You are being led astray by lies and distorted information created by pro-Shroud believers.
Rincewind
Philosopher
Never, surely the treasure is but one shovelful down.
Underneath the giant "W"...
That would be the same Sudarium of Oviedo which was carbon dated to around 700 CE, and which first appeared in historical records around 631 CE?
Sorry, Jabba, I really can't work out what it is you are trying to show evidence for.
You claimed that there is human blood on the shroud and that it's been typed to come from the Middle East, and that the chromosomes in the blood show that the person was born as a result of parthenogenesis (or I suppose, if one accepts the notion of a god fertilising the egg without actual physical contact, a form of xenogenesis).
We asked you to show evidence for these claims, and you've shown:
1. Some Italian police scientists doing computerised age regression of a picture
2. A claim (my Italian is not fluent enough to chase down the references on the paper) that the blood on the Sudarium is type AB. But the Sudarium dates from 700 CE or thereabouts, so what relevance this has is a mystery.
3. A paper by Heller and Adler that you don't appear to have read, and which is not particularly persuasive due to some obvious errors.
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Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
What difference does the finding of blood make? The image on the cloth has a terminus post quem (date after which) of the 13th century. The image can't predate the cloth.
Jumping yet again?
You do realize that the more bloody clothes that are claimed to be involved in the burial of Jesus the less convincing it becomes? The discovery of one True Cross might be evidence, but the discovery of seventeen generates a problem.
Okay, just as an experiment, re-read your second citation and highlight with a pencil all the times they first assume that this MUST be a cloth used on the head of the dead Christ, and then draw what are meant to sound like scientific conclusions from that assumption to make that very assumption. To paraphrase just one: "There are blood stains on both this cloth and on the Shroud. For this to happen, the cloth must have somehow kept the blood from clotting so it could later also stain the Shroud (nothing like any cloth or blood that I have ever seen by the way- in my entire experience a cloth helps blood clot). Because they are both stained, both the cloth and the Shroud must be true burial clothes of Christ." Circular logic and special pleading anyone?
If you intended to cite this as evidence of your Xx chromosome statement, it really represents a quotation of a report of finding an AB blood type. The latter I have heard about before, and it has been cited to suggest that AB is not uncommon in the Middle East (which I think you were also suggesting in your Xx statement). Were you confusing AB with Xx? They are quite different and mean very different things. An Xx karyotype (depending on what x is- God's chromosome?) might indeed be good evidence of a divine origin of the blood, whereas an AB blood type can be found anywhere (my dad was AB, and although he was a wonderful father, I don't think that he was actually divine).
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Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Good morning, Mr. Savage.
Among the things you are missing is that "peer-reviewed" does not mean "correct", but "adhering to minimal standards such that it is at least worth publishing".
At any rate, let's look at the clams, above.
1. X-ray fluorescence can,in fact, detect the presence of iron. However, iron is not blood, nor is blood the only substance that contains iron. In fact, cloths stained with blood, clay, and rust all show positive x-ray fluorescence for the presence of iron.
In other words, test for iron detects iron.
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ectrometry/links/0912f5084243d04b3e000000.pdf
Strike one.
2. The "indicative spectra" obtained by microspectrophotometry are wavelengths of particular colours indicative of particular elements and compunds. Do you happen to knw which "indicative spectra" were detected using microspectrophotometry? At best, microspectrophotometry could indicate that there were chemicals not inconsistent with blood; the test does not detect blood itself. (See iron, above.)
Strike two.
3. Porphyirin fluorescence indicates teh presence of porphyrin. As was pointed out to you very recently, porphyrin =/= blood. In fact, as was poiinted out to you recently, most organic pigments contain porphyrins. Did you read Bright Earth yet? Until the advent of anyline dyes (~1830 CE), nearly all red and red-brown pigments consisted of porphyrins (cinnabar, and Iron(III) oxide being noteable exceptions).
Strike three.
4. Hydrazine sulfate (not hydrazine) can be used to detect the presence of heme compounds, but as above, heme is not blood. There is a hemochromogen test that is definitive for blood (the Takayama test), but it is a destructive test, and cannot be preformed without a fairly substantial sample.
http://guidedocstab.com/2011/04/what-is-hemochromogen-test-takayama-test-in-forensic-science/
Strike four.
5. Cyanmethhemoglobin is a compound formed of methemoglobin (proteinaceous oxidated heme). Cyanmethemoglobin is often used to measure the amount of hemoglobin in a blood sample; however, there the substance tested is known to be blood. Cyanmethhemoglobin will form out of any proteinaceous heme compound.
Strike five.
6. Bilirubin is present in blood, urine, feces...and organic pigments. This has been pointed out to you before.
Strike six.
7. As often as the CIQ has been handled since its production in the mid-12th Century CE (as indicated by 14C dating), it would be astonishing if "protein" were NOT detected; however, protein is not blood.
Strike seven.
8. One wonders what H & A thought to achieve, exposing proteins to proteolytic enzymes. Protease does, in fact, break down proteins ("Enxyme-activated" detergent, anyone? Meat tenderizer?), but this is not limited to the proteins in blood.
Strike eight.
9. Another bilirubin test.
Strike nine.
10. Albumins are, in fact, found in human blood plasma. They are also found in egg white. Guess to what artistic use egg white is put.
Strike ten.
11. I have pointed out to you the problem with claiming that the "blood" stains on the CIQ show "serum rings" before. As a refresher, any dense pigment in a water-based vehicle will show retraction rings, if it is dropped (as opposded to brushed, or daubed) on an absorptive surface.
Strike eleven.
12. Do you happen to know what "test" was used to "determine" that the "blood" was of "primate origin"? The usual antibody tests to determine whether blood is human, or animal, require samples significantly less degraded that the stains on the CIQ (should those stains turn out to be actual blood).
Ball one.
13. "Forensic judgement" just means that H & A decided that the "wound" representations looked "real enough" for their tastes. It sounds all science-y, but it has no substance.
Strike twelve.
It is, in fact, possible that there is detectable human blood on the CIQ. Even were the presence of such demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would be blood on a 780-year-old artifact.
Have you provided the sources by which you claim the "blood" on the CIQ was serotyped, and genotyped? I would still be interested to read those.
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Jessica Christ! (It might, however, put the temper swings--cursing an out-of-season fig tree for not having figs--in a new light.)
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
Lucian
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As others have pointed out, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with the claims you are supposed to be supporting (blood proves Middle Eastern virgin birth). In addition, the Italian police created the blond boy Jesus in 2004. The ridiculous image just got recycled this year as part of the publicity for the exhibition.
I've just noticed that the claim of the blood being AB is marked [citation needed] on the Wiki entry for the Sudarium of Ovieto. On the Alfonso paper, the reference is given as "VILLALAÍN BLANCO, JD Estudio Hematológico Forense realizado sobre el Santo Sudario de Oviedo. Sudario del Señor. Actas del I Congreso Internacional sobre el Sudario de Oviedo. Oviedo. 1994. Página 153." which presumably is in Spanish, but I can't find it on the web at the moment; all the hits go back to Alfonso's paper. Maybe somebody else's google-fu will be better.
Funnily enough, Giordano, my dad was also AB! He was AB-ve, and he was, like yours, quite mortal and not divine. Nor was my dad middle eastern, but born in Hampshire in the south of England, and of Devon ancestry.
Funnily enough, Giordano, my dad was also AB! He was AB-ve, and he was, like yours, quite mortal and not divine. Nor was my dad middle eastern, but born in Hampshire in the south of England, and of Devon ancestry.
Yeah, but it puts a whole new perspective on the concept of "the love of Christ." I even find the concept vaguely hot. But possibly disappointing, I suspect, to the male Gay members of the Forum.
I would suspect that we were secret siblings, but my dad was born in Brooklyn NYC. He was Eastern European in background. But I have liked my trips to England very much, so maybe he made up the whole Brooklyn story.
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive , Co-Ordinator,, Russell's Antin
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