Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Once again, the thread has grown lengthy, so this is a continuation from the previous thread Part 15. As usual, the split point is arbitrary and participants are free to quote from the previous thread(s) into this one.
For further reference, see:
Part 14,Part 13, Part 12, Part 11, Part 10, Part 9, Part 8, Part 7, Part 6, Part 5, Part 4, Part 3, Part 2, Part 1, and Part 0.

The thread will remain on moderated status for the present.

Edited by Loss Leader: 

Edited to add missing link

Posted By: Agatha

Never believed he bought it anywhere. It was fronted to him by the burglar.

It has now been well established he had phone access so that wasn't an impediment to selling various goods. He wouldn't have needed a phone for in person bar contacts to move these low priced items, but he had phone access as shown by many diverse sources.

What ever..... I still don't buy he was a fence. That is someone who makes his living buy in and selling stolen goods

 

[Vixen]

For Vixen -Rudi interview:

Pros. Mignini: Understood, however has anybody ever called you by this nickname?
Guede: Yes I’ve heard…
Pros. Mignini: So nationality IvorianGuede: Yes

-----------------------------------------------------

And so you worked there until…
Guede: I started and if I’m not mistaken from 3rd March until the last time which was the end of August
Pros. Mignini: After August what happened?
Guede: Well, in August I left this job and so I looked for another, it’s not as if I’m…
Pros. Mignini: Yes
Guede: Together with this friend who is called Giacomo Benedetti and I looked for work but in the meantime I had jobs like in catering, in a restaurant, in fact I was, I worked two days at the, if I’m not mistaken, the name should be Villa Umbra, I did some work there and then I did others through people I knew in Milan and Ancona

--------------------------------------------------------

He reports that his meeting of Amanda was at Le Chic.

He discusses many jobs.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/rudy-guede-deposition-march-2008/

Rudy obviously has Italian residency, then. I was chatting to a German friend of mine who told me her German relative was married to a lady from the Middle East. She had to jump many hoops to attain German residency, before she could go gallivanting all over Europe.

Not really sure job record is relevant. More relevant IMV was being abandoned by his mother, neglected by his father and passed through 80(?) foster homes. Little wonder Rudy has sociopathic tendencies.

 

[davefoc]

Once I figured out what people were talking about (most of my early googling about Diaz returned hits to Cameron Diaz) many of the preceding posts were very interesting as they dealt with aspects of the case that I was mostly unaware of. Unfortunately they raised questions that seem like they will remain unanswered in public forever.

This is a link to a story that everybody that is participating in this thread is more than familiar with but it helped clear up a few things for me.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/09/30/unmasked-kercher-murder-witnesses-flop-in-court/

So in the end there is the weird involvement of Kokomani without any explanation. It seems like the most likely explanation was that it was a continuation of the Mignini led conspiracy against AK/RS but I certainly don't know enough to form much of an opinion about it.

There is the fire story in Diaz's home that seems likely to be related to Guede, but that also seems unknowable.

And on the subject of how the conspiracy against Knox and Sollecito was carried out: The possibilities range from an every man for himself kind of thing where lots of people are spontaneously making up stuff without any central control to the idea that the whole thing was carefully orchestrated by Mignini. I think it was probably mostly the latter. For the various leaks to remain plausible for as long as possible they needed to be consistent with each other and that points to a single individual in control. In addition, if Mignini had not approved the leaks I think he would have used his power to find and stop the leakers.

And lastly I'm embarrassed to admit after all this time that I didn't understand the reference to Erasmus. I finally came to understand that it was the educational program that Kercher came to Italy under. I think I knew that but had forgotten it.

 

[Planigale]

Rudy obviously has Italian residency, then. I was chatting to a German friend of mine who told me her German relative was married to a lady from the Middle East. She had to jump many hoops to attain German residency, before she could go gallivanting all over Europe.

Not really sure job record is relevant. More relevant IMV was being abandoned by his mother, neglected by his father and passed through 80(?) foster homes. Little wonder Rudy has sociopathic tendencies.

The two highlighted are a non sequitur.

Once you are in the Shengen area you have free travel within the area, because there are no borders. This is true whether you are a tourist, illegal immigrant, asylum seeker, or Italian citizen.


I believe Guede was a Italian resident, but not an Italian citizen. But this is not necessary to allow travel to Germany, because there are no border checks.

 

[Vixen]

The two highlighted are a non sequitur.

Once you are in the Shengen area you have free travel within the area, because there are no borders. This is true whether you are a tourist, illegal immigrant, asylum seeker, or Italian citizen.


I believe Guede was a Italian resident, but not an Italian citizen. But this is not necessary to allow travel to Germany, because there are no border checks.

You do not have any legal right of free movement in the Schengen area if you have no residency rights. If Italians and Germans are obliged by law over 15/18-years old, to hold either a passport or an ID card, are you seriously claiming illegal immigrants turning up on a beach have the Schengen rights?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

 

[Vixen]

Once I figured out what people were talking about (most of my early googling about Diaz returned hits to Cameron Diaz) many of the preceding posts were very interesting as they dealt with aspects of the case that I was mostly unaware of. Unfortunately they raised questions that seem like they will remain unanswered in public forever.

This is a link to a story that everybody that is participating in this thread is more than familiar with but it helped clear up a few things for me.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2008/09/30/unmasked-kercher-murder-witnesses-flop-in-court/

So in the end there is the weird involvement of Kokomani without any explanation. It seems like the most likely explanation was that it was a continuation of the Mignini led conspiracy against AK/RS but I certainly don't know enough to form much of an opinion about it.

There is the fire story in Diaz's home that seems likely to be related to Guede, but that also seems unknowable.

And on the subject of how the conspiracy against Knox and Sollecito was carried out: The possibilities range from an every man for himself kind of thing where lots of people are spontaneously making up stuff without any central control to the idea that the whole thing was carefully orchestrated by Mignini. I think it was probably mostly the latter. For the various leaks to remain plausible for as long as possible they needed to be consistent with each other and that points to a single individual in control. In addition, if Mignini had not approved the leaks I think he would have used his power to find and stop the leakers.

And lastly I'm embarrassed to admit after all this time that I didn't understand the reference to Erasmus. I finally came to understand that it was the educational program that Kercher came to Italy under. I think I knew that but had forgotten it.

ERASMUS is a prestigious European university students official exchange scheme. Mez was there studying for an accredited module towards her degree.

Amanda was merely enrolled into a two-hours a day language course, without accreditation and not part of any module, which any Tom, Dick or Harry could stroll into. All credit to Amanda having the initiative, but she was not on a par with Mez academically.

 

[Grinder]

ERASMUS is a prestigious European university students official exchange scheme. Mez was there studying for an accredited module towards her degree.

Amanda was merely enrolled into a two-hours a day language course, without accreditation and not part of any module, which any Tom, Dick or Harry could stroll into. All credit to Amanda having the initiative, but she was not on a par with Mez academically.

Why is this important to you? Amanda attended one the top universities in the world while Mez attended a much lower ranked school. Amanda worked while going to school and earned the money to go while maintaining a strong GPA. She also participated in sporting activities and played musical instruments.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

 

[Grinder]

You do not have any legal right of free movement in the Schengen area if you have no residency rights. If Italians and Germans are obliged by law over 15/18-years old, to hold either a passport or an ID card, are you seriously claiming illegal immigrants turning up on a beach have the Schengen rights?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

From your link.

At present, five EEA member states (Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Norway and United Kingdom) do not issue national identity cards to their citizens. Therefore, EEA member states' citizens from these five countries can only use a passport as a travel document when travelling to other countries in the EEA or Switzerland, unless travelling within the Schengen Area, Nordic Passport Union or the Common Travel Area, where any valid identity document is usually sufficient, if anything at all. Ireland and Norway have decided to start issuing such cards, Ireland in July 2015 and Norway in 2017.

Traveling within the Schengen area requires only valid ID, if anything. That's like a driver's license, at most.

 

[Bill Williams]

ERASMUS is a prestigious European university students official exchange scheme. Mez was there studying for an accredited module towards her degree.

Amanda was merely enrolled into a two-hours a day language course, without accreditation and not part of any module, which any Tom, Dick or Harry could stroll into. All credit to Amanda having the initiative, but she was not on a par with Mez academically.

Why is this important to you? Amanda attended one the top universities in the world while Mez attended a much lower ranked school. Amanda worked while going to school and earned the money to go while maintaining a strong GPA. She also participated in sporting activities and played musical instruments.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

All of this is completely immaterial. No one interested in justice for Meredith cares about their respective academic paths, backgrounds or potential futures.

 

[Grinder]

What ever..... I still don't buy he was a fence. That is someone who makes his living buy in and selling stolen goods

I believe you are stuck in the dogma of the PIP scenario.

It would be nice if you admitted one of your central arguments has been shown by many sources to be false. He had phone access.

You seem unable to free your mind from one image of a fence or fencing. If you read the RW post and the interview of Rudi by Mignini you would know that Rudi worked a number of jobs in 2007. If he sold stolen merch for others, it only augmented other income.

As you have pointed out, used laptops in general and stolen ones in general aren't worth a lot and aren't easy to sell. This is the kind of product a thief wants to get rid of fast in order to provide a degree of separation and may well front the goods to guy like Rudi. You have indicated that he stole because he needed money, which means you believe he had the ability to sell. You haven't made any case why he could sell his "own" product but not others.

Another piece of information from the interview is that Rudi had only recently moved back to Perugia. The collection of computers in his tiny living space were likely accumulated in a short period of time. It seems unlikely that he kept stealing computers he couldn't sell. More likely that someone fronted them to him just before the Spanish kids saw them.

 

[Matthew Best]

Traveling within the Schengen area requires only valid ID, if anything. That's like a driver's license, at most.

Often it doesn't even require that. It's laughably easy to cross some borders in Europe by car without even slowing down, let alone stopping and showing some piece of identification.

 

[Grinder]

So in the end there is the weird involvement of Kokomani without any explanation. It seems like the most likely explanation was that it was a continuation of the Mignini led conspiracy against AK/RS but I certainly don't know enough to form much of an opinion about it.

Why would Mignini possibly choose Kokomani to his witness? Koko by all accounts I know of left for Albania just after the murder and on return had a lawyer set up the initial meeting with Mignini. There is nothing I know of indicating he did this at any PLE direction.

There is the fire story in Diaz's home that seems likely to be related to Guede, but that also seems unknowable.

Exactly why does it seem related to Guede? First of all no one has provided even proof that Diaz exists, that there was a break in and fire, much less that Rudi had anything to do with it. Remember the wild party at Amanda's house that the PGP use as proof of how crazy and wild she was because she led a group of people throwing rocks at neighbors and cars? In that case there was a police report that proved a party was cited and there were rocks observed by the police and Amanda did accept the ticket but it was BS to conclude she had anything to do with the rocks or even that rocks had been thrown at cars.

In the Diaz case we have only one true crime writers account. How can anyone use it for anything?

And on the subject of how the conspiracy against Knox and Sollecito was carried out: The possibilities range from an every man for himself kind of thing where lots of people are spontaneously making up stuff without any central control to the idea that the whole thing was carefully orchestrated by Mignini. I think it was probably mostly the latter. For the various leaks to remain plausible for as long as possible they needed to be consistent with each other and that points to a single individual in control. In addition, if Mignini had not approved the leaks I think he would have used his power to find and stop the leakers.

He did fire a leaker. When do you think Mignini organized his grand scheme?

 

[kmortis]

This thread is now off of moderated status. The moderation team reminds you all to follow the Membership Agreement when you are posting to this and any communication on the IS Forums. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis

 

[Bill Williams]

I believe you are stuck in the dogma of the PIP scenario.

For clarity's sake, it might be helpful to lay out what this "dogma" is. I've been part of what might be known as the "PIP" side for 3 1/2 years, and know of no dogma - nor of any central authority which enforces it.

Even if it is a bare bones sort of thing.... what is this "dogma" of which you speak? My experience is that PIP argue like cats and dogs, just like you and acbytesla are doing.

 

[Kauffer]

Often it doesn't even require that. It's laughably easy to cross some borders in Europe by car without even slowing down, let alone stopping and showing some piece of identification.

There are no border posts within the Schengen zone. There's nobody to check documents. There is no automatic check.

Obviously, if there is a form of reasonable suspicion about an individual's right to be at large, then national police forces, according to individual countries' own laws could require production of some form of ID, but merely being a citizen of the Ivory Coast is not, in and of itself grounds for suspicion of an individual's immigration status.

 

[Kauffer]

You do not have any legal right of free movement in the Schengen area if you have no residency rights. If Italians and Germans are obliged by law over 15/18-years old, to hold either a passport or an ID card, are you seriously claiming illegal immigrants turning up on a beach have the Schengen rights?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

Yes you do! If you are legally inside the Schengen zone then you have a legal right of free movement within it. You do not need to be resident of a Schengen country. You might be in possession of a Schengen visa.

If, on the other hand, you are an illegal immigrant, not only do you not have a right of free movement within the zone, but you have no right to be in the zone in the first place. But someone has to catch you. These days, such catches are not made at border posts, because there are no border posts. Typically, they are made by intelligence led raids on employers' premises where it is suspected that immigrants are working illegally.

 

[Vixen]

Why is this important to you? Amanda attended one the top universities in the world while Mez attended a much lower ranked school. Amanda worked while going to school and earned the money to go while maintaining a strong GPA. She also participated in sporting activities and played musical instruments.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2014-15/world-ranking

What??? Mez was at Leeds University, one of the UK's highest ranked "red bricks".


ETA In any case, Amanda was not with Uni of Washington whilst in Italy. There is no evidence she was on the Dean's list, or an honours graduate. Or even that she graduated.

 

[Bill Williams]

It is my view that Giuliano Mignini got caught up in his own version of what was otherwise a global prosecutorial obsession years ago.

http://http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/05/26/the-ongoing-legacy-of-the-great-satanic-sex-abuse-panic/

 

[Grinder]

For clarity's sake, it might be helpful to lay out what this "dogma" is. I've been part of what might be known as the "PIP" side for 3 1/2 years, and know of no dogma - nor of any central authority which enforces it.

Even if it is a bare bones sort of thing.... what is this "dogma" of which you speak? My experience is that PIP argue like cats and dogs, just like you and acbytesla are doing.

I believe that for the PIP Rudi being a lone wolf and a serial burglar is dogma. The authority is not an individual but rather the PIP movement which in the beginning (before your time) was laid down by FOA. Bremner et al. were putting out the "railroad job from hell" as well as the "lone wolf" talking points.

The phone access of Rudi might provide an example of dogmatic behavior. I have been able to assemble a significant number of unrelated sources showing that he clearly had access. I'm quite sure that several posters here could have provided this information long ago but didn't as it doesn't fit the PIP scenario.

Kokomani is hand waved away as another Mignini creation or at least when that is proposed no one contradicts that but me (clearly I may forgotten someone) even though his pattern doesn't fit any of the other witnesses.

Why is it that the PIP here are not more interested in what he was doing there that night? Why would a drug dealer (gang member ?)expose himself to this case voluntarily?

The descriptions of Rudi with the exceptions of the womanizing remarks made after his arrest (similar to the british girls dissing Amanda after the arrest) what I've read his sister(s) (foster) said he was gentle and no one described him as anything bad except lazy and lying about going to his tutor.

When I've asked if CT's testimony would be accepted if it was against the kids I get no reply much less an explanation. He can't even say he is sure it was Rudi, but here it is a set in stone example of his behavior. The guy claims he spotted him a club later, but only had a friend throw him out of another club and never told the police who this guy that broke into his place and threatened him with a knife was.

A true crime writer spins a story of burglary and fire with no backing or second independent source and no one here questions it when used as "another burglary". No one notes that this same account has Rudi being attentive and kind to Diaz's dog.

 

[Bill Williams]

What??? Mez was at Leeds University, one of the UK's highest ranked "red bricks".


ETA In any case, Amanda was not with Uni of Washington whilst in Italy. There is no evidence she was on the Dean's list, or an honours graduate. Or even that she graduated.

I am confused. Why is this important?

There was one of the "motives" once floated that the murder was one of jealousy, along these lines. Yet the ISC in March 2015 has said that Amanda Knox was not involved in Meredith's murder. That is the final word from Italy on the subject.

In that light, why is this important?