Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Slowvehicle said:
Mr. Savage:

I, personally, would like to see you respond to these problems here, on this thread.

What in the name of the Dancing Kewpie Dolls of Lulungomeela supports your idea that "most" here "believe" there is "probably" blood on the CIQ?
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Wishful thinking and obstinacy
 
Blood/Mapping

- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!

- Going back over the responses about blood, I can see that my conclusion about your opinions is not really supported...
- At this point, it still seems that Hugh suspects blood, Hans figures it's a reasonable possibility, and many of you said things that allowed me to see what I wanted to see...
- On my blog, I'll change my version of your opinion.

- Whatever, I still get about 90%.
- I'll go back to digging up support for blood.
 
Jabba said:
- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!

- Going back over the responses about blood, I can see that my conclusion about your opinions is not really supported...
- At this point, it still seems that Hugh suspects blood, Hans figures it's a reasonable possibility, and many of you said things that allowed me to see what I wanted to see...
- On my blog, I'll change my version of your opinion.

- Whatever, I still get about 90%.
- I'll go back to digging up support for blood.
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Mr. Savage:

This is, in fact, a perfect example of assuming your consequent.

Not to mention, you have gone back to ignoring the substance of my posts, when you find them inconvenient.
 
Jabba,

The question is whether you will remember that you struck out. I have no opinion on whether it's actually blood or not, but as has been pointed out, it wouldn't matter much for a number of reasons. Here's a list, because I know you like them:

A. No proof that it's blood.

B. No proof that it's human (or divine) blood. Blood has been used in European cooking for centuries and blood puddings are still a common dish. Animal blood would have been available in any kitchen in medieval Europe. It might as well be grape juice.

C. Blood (or any liquid) does not transfer to cloth in neat little rivulets unless it's deliberately painted onto a prepared surface.

D. None of it matters unless there's a reasonable answer to the carbon dating date.

Ward
 
Jabba said:
- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!

- Going back over the responses about blood, I can see that my conclusion about your opinions is not really supported...
- At this point, it still seems that Hugh suspects blood, Hans figures it's a reasonable possibility, and many of you said things that allowed me to see what I wanted to see...
- On my blog, I'll change my version of your opinion.
- Whatever, I still get about 90%.- I'll go back to digging up support for blood.
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You pulled that number out of your back side.
 
Jabba said:
- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!
Click to expand...

Thank god that you are done with the baseball analogy!

If you weren't, it's strike three yerrrrr oouutt!

But here you still are. Consistency is not very important in your posts, is it?
 
Jabba said:
- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!

- Going back over the responses about blood, I can see that my conclusion about your opinions is not really supported...
- At this point, it still seems that Hugh suspects blood, Hans figures it's a reasonable possibility, and many of you said things that allowed me to see what I wanted to see...
- On my blog, I'll change my version of your opinion.

- Whatever, I still get about 90%.- I'll go back to digging up support for blood.
Click to expand...

How do you get the 90% (which I presume is your estimate of it being blood, rather than your estimate of the percent of the posters here who believe so)? Was it because you want it to be true, just as you wanted most posters here to agreed with you that it was blood, which resulted in you seeing "what you wanted to see" in their posts, instead of their actual written opinions?
 
Jabba said:
- OK. Strike three!
- But, I'm not through yet!

- Going back over the responses about blood, I can see that my conclusion about your opinions is not really supported...
- At this point, it still seems that Hugh suspects blood, Hans figures it's a reasonable possibility, and many of you said things that allowed me to see what I wanted to see...
- On my blog, I'll change my version of your opinion.

- Whatever, I still get about 90%.
- I'll go back to digging up support for blood.
Click to expand...

Given that you had the time to post this and yet failed to post a simple yes or no to my question, I will assume that you never read the actual H and A paper yourself. Given that you presented quotes alleged to be from this paper as evidence, doesn't it worry you that you appear to not have looked at their actual evidence or the actual statements in their publication?
 
Jabba said:
- From http://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm. 1997

Upon examining the chest, the pathologist notes a large blood stain over the right pectoral area Close examination shows a variance in intensity of the stain consistent with the presence of two types of fluid, one comprised of blood, and the other resembling water.
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Dear Mr. Savage:

Please notice, and internalize, the fact that "consistent with" "blood" and something "resembling water" is not, in fact,evidence of the actual presence of human blood, human serosanguinous fluids, or human plasma.

Even if it were, the merepresence of blood and serosanguinous fluids, even human blood &ct., provides not a scintilla of evidence regarding the source of those substances.

Not to mention, the "right pectoral area" is protected by ribs...a spear thrust to the heart, from a professional soldier standing below the target, would result in a penetrating puncture to the left abdominal area.

Jabba said:
There is distinct evidence of a gravitational effect on this stain with the blood flowing downward and without spatter of other evidence of the projectile activity which would be expected from blood issuing from a functional arterial source. This wound has all the characteristics of a postmortem type flow of blood from a body cavity or from an organ such as the heart. At the upper plane of the wound is an ovoid skin defect which is characteristic of a penetrating track produced by a sharp puncturing instrument.
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Follow: if the "blood" flowed downward from the penetrating puncture located in the wrong place, the "blood" would have had to be an artifact of the body's suspension; further, the body would have had to be inserted between two flat planes of the CIQ without being washed, making it 1) ritually unclean, and , 2) a flat contradiction of the canonic description in "John's" 'god'spiel.

Jabba said:
There seems to be an increase in the anteroposterior diameter of the chest due to bilateral expansion.

The abdomen is flat, and the right and left arms are crossed over the mid and lower abdomen. The genitalia cannot be identified.
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Can you identify both sets of special pleading in these three sentences?

Jabba said:
By examination of the arms, forearms, wrists, and hands, the pathologist notes that the left hand overlies the right wrist On the left wrist area is a distinct puncture-type injury which has two projecting rivulets derived from a central source and separated by about a 10 degree angle. As it appears in the image, the rivulets extend in a horizontal direction. The pathologist realizes that this blood flow could not have happened with the arms in the position as he sees them during his examination, and he must reconstruct the position of the arms in such a way as to place them where they would have to be to account for gravity in the direction of the blood flow. His calculations to that effect would indicate that the arms would have to be outstretched upward at about a 65 degree angle with the horizontal. The pathologist observes that there are blood flows which extend in a direction from wrists toward elbows on the right and left forearms. These flows can be readily accounted for my the position of the arms which he has just determined.
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Same objection: either the "blood" is a suspension artifact, in which case the 'god'spiel of "John" must be rejected as inaccurate.

What doth it profit a sidonist if he gain anomalous "blood" stains and lose the canonic account?

<snip>

...on a 780-year-old-pice of linen...
 
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wardenclyffe said:
Jabba,

The question is whether you will remember that you struck out. I have no opinion on whether it's actually blood or not, but as has been pointed out, it wouldn't matter much for a number of reasons. Here's a list, because I know you like them:

A. No proof that it's blood.

B. No proof that it's human (or divine) blood. Blood has been used in European cooking for centuries and blood puddings are still a common dish. Animal blood would have been available in any kitchen in medieval Europe. It might as well be grape juice.

C. Blood (or any liquid) does not transfer to cloth in neat little rivulets unless it's deliberately painted onto a prepared surface.

D. None of it matters unless there's a reasonable answer to the carbon dating date.

Ward
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Be careful about mentioning blood pudding.

You might get a visit from a South African...

:eek:
 
Jabba said:
- I'll add this: my personal opinion is that the probability of the alleged blood stains are real blood is aout 90%.
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Can you explain where the blood was during the 1,200 years it needed to hang around waiting for the "shroud" to be manufactured?
 
wardenclyffe said:
Jabba,

The question is whether you will remember that you struck out. I have no opinion on whether it's actually blood or not, but as has been pointed out, it wouldn't matter much for a number of reasons. Here's a list, because I know you like them:

A. No proof that it's blood.

B. No proof that it's human (or divine) blood. Blood has been used in European cooking for centuries and blood puddings are still a common dish. Animal blood would have been available in any kitchen in medieval Europe. It might as well be grape juice.

C. Blood (or any liquid) does not transfer to cloth in neat little rivulets unless it's deliberately painted onto a prepared surface.

D. None of it matters unless there's a reasonable answer to the carbon dating date.

Ward
Click to expand...
Ward,

A. There is lots of evidence. I'll go back to digging it up.
B. There is evidence that it's human blood, that it's the right blood type for the mid-east and apparently, even that it's the right type for a 'virgin birth.' (Apparently, there is such a thing -- having to do with Xx chromosomes).
C. Again, the shapes of the stains have been given reasonable explanations.
D. And again, to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt re the carbon dating.

- I have lots of digging to do...
 
Jabba said:
Ward,

A. There is lots of evidence. I'll go back to digging it up.
B. There is evidence that it's human blood, that it's the right blood type for the mid-east and apparently, even that it's the right type for a 'virgin birth.' (Apparently, there is such a thing -- having to do with Xx chromosomes).
C. Again, the shapes of the stains have been given reasonable explanations.
D. And again, to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt re the carbon dating.

- I have lots of digging to do...
Click to expand...

Don't forget the evidence that the shroud is 2000 years old. You merely doubting the 14C date is worth nothing.
 
Jabba said:
Ward,

A. There is lots of evidence. I'll go back to digging it up.
B. There is evidence that it's human blood, that it's the right blood type for the mid-east and apparently, even that it's the right type for a 'virgin birth.' (Apparently, there is such a thing -- having to do with Xx chromosomes).
C. Again, the shapes of the stains have been given reasonable explanations.
D. And again, to me, there is plenty of reasonable doubt re the carbon dating.

- I have lots of digging to do...
Click to expand...

Indeed you do. We've seen the evidence that it's within the realm of possibility that the blood on the shroud is blood. It's possible, but far from proven.

I'm very interested in what you produce for B, and I don't recall ever seeing an explanation for C. As to D, you, yourself, with your own primary research with fabric experts have shown that an invisible patch is not possible. What were your other reasonable doubts?

I'm well aware that I should not hold my breath.

Ward
 
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