Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

Status
Not open for further replies.
Slowvehicle said:
Mr. Savage:

You have demonstrated that you do not understand, even at an informal level, the concept of "probably".

MRC_Hans used the term, "may", and, absent other evidence, it would be polite to accept the term at face value.

Given that the discolorations at issue cannot possibly have been actual human blood flowing from actual injuries inflicted on an actual human body (vice the issues of physics, adsorption/absorption, 1st Century CE funerary practices, et al.); and,

Given that the tests performed by H & A discovered, not blood, but porphyrins (a class of organic pigments); and,

Given that any red pigment available in the mid-13th Century CE would have contained poryphin-bearing organic pigments (which were the only widely available reds and browns --even umber and ochre pigments will have some porhyrins in them); then

At best, the "detection" of porphyrins in some of the discolorations on the CIQ can, at best, be said to indicate that the discolorations "MAY" indicate the presence of blood.

May. Might. Could. Maybe.
Click to expand...
I just thought it would pay to repeat this to be certain Jabba sees it.
 
John Jones said:
Let's see some. And don't trot-out that ray rogers vanillin degradation deceased equine again.
Click to expand...

If this is not brought up yet again by Jabba, I might convert from an atheist to a religious belief, because clearly that would show the work of the hand of God.
 
Jabba said:
Craig,
- But, by following my format, it should be much easier to show how foolish I'm being. I already have two strikes against me, and I've just begun to bat!
Click to expand...
Sweet galloping bishop in a wheeled bucket.

You tried "your format" already and immediately abandoned it. It was demonstrated to be about as effective as a chocolate motorcycle helmet...BY YOU.
 
Jabba said:
Craig,
- But, by following my format, it should be much easier to show how foolish I'm being. I already have two strikes against me, and I've just begun to bat!
Click to expand...

We did try following your format, but it didn't work for you, let alone us. But yes, organize the views plus and minus, write it down (okay if you make it a file accessible to the forum too), include the citations that document each statement, read the citations yourself to confirm that they actually say what you think or remember that they say. Do this on your own so that you aren't caught presented poorly developed or wrong views here before you had the time to strengthen your argument.

Separate issue: if you have just begun to bat, what were you doing the past multiple years in this thread? If you mean that you just began to bat this inning (boy I wish we never began this metaphor), how many total innings do you think make up this game?
 
Last edited:
Giordano said:
We did try following your format, but it didn't work for you, let alone us. But yes, organize the views plus and minus, write it down (okay if you make it a file accessible to the forum too), include the citations that document each statement, read the citations yourself to confirm that they actually say what you think or remember that they say. Do this on your own so that you aren't caught presented poorly developed or wrong views here before you had the time to strengthen your argument.

Separate issue: if you have just begun to bat, what were you doing the past multiple years in this thread? If you mean that you just began to bat this inning (boy I wish we never began this metaphor), how many total innings do you think make up this game?
Click to expand...

(Thus my comment about "Town Ball")
 
Jabba said:
- I have 2, maybe 3, hours a day that I can justify spending on this stuff. I wish it was my job, and I could justify 8 hours a day! Really.
Click to expand...

Jabba said:
Giordano,
- You're right. I was just quoting someone else about such documents. I'll see if I can locate what he was referring to.
Click to expand...


Jabba said:
- Now, I gotta go back and figure out why Heller and Adler were so sure that the porphyrin indicated blood.
Click to expand...

Slowvehicle said:
2. Did you even read the article about porphyrins (not just "porphyrin")?
Click to expand...

Giordano said:
Did you read their actual paper? Not quotes of it, or paraphrasing, but the actual paper?
Click to expand...

Slowvehicle said:
Did you read the actual article?
Click to expand...

carlitos said:
And, as others have asked, did you read the actual paper? Is that part of "everything that you have read?"
Click to expand...

Giordano said:
Just curious- for the third time, did you read the actual manuscript, not just second hand interpretations of it?
Click to expand...

Dear Mr. Jabba,

If you can't answer a "yes or no" question in three hours a day, you really, really probably shouldn't be trying to fix the human condition via debate rules.

Yes or no - Did you read the Heller and Adler paper? Yes or No?
 
carlitos said:
Dear Mr. Jabba,

If you can't answer a "yes or no" question in three hours a day, you really, really probably shouldn't be trying to fix the human condition via debate rules.

Yes or no - Did you read the Heller and Adler paper? Yes or No?
Click to expand...

Oddly, I was just about to re-ask this question myself. Perhaps it is mind reading and we should take this aspect of the discussion over to the paranormal category of the Forum.
 
Slowvehicle said:
Mr Savage:

Please address the issue of the "blood" that does not flow in a direction, or in a manner, that gravity and/or hydrodynamics would cause blood to do. Feel free to knock it out of the park.
Click to expand...
- From http://www.shroud.com/bucklin.htm. 1997

Upon examining the chest, the pathologist notes a large blood stain over the right pectoral area Close examination shows a variance in intensity of the stain consistent with the presence of two types of fluid, one comprised of blood, and the other resembling water. There is distinct evidence of a gravitational effect on this stain with the blood flowing downward and without spatter of other evidence of the projectile activity which would be expected from blood issuing from a functional arterial source. This wound has all the characteristics of a postmortem type flow of blood from a body cavity or from an organ such as the heart. At the upper plane of the wound is an ovoid skin defect which is characteristic of a penetrating track produced by a sharp puncturing instrument.

There seems to be an increase in the anteroposterior diameter of the chest due to bilateral expansion.

The abdomen is flat, and the right and left arms are crossed over the mid and lower abdomen. The genitalia cannot be identified.

By examination of the arms, forearms, wrists, and hands, the pathologist notes that the left hand overlies the right wrist On the left wrist area is a distinct puncture-type injury which has two projecting rivulets derived from a central source and separated by about a 10 degree angle. As it appears in the image, the rivulets extend in a horizontal direction. The pathologist realizes that this blood flow could not have happened with the arms in the position as he sees them during his examination, and he must reconstruct the position of the arms in such a way as to place them where they would have to be to account for gravity in the direction of the blood flow. His calculations to that effect would indicate that the arms would have to be outstretched upward at about a 65 degree angle with the horizontal. The pathologist observes that there are blood flows which extend in a direction from wrists toward elbows on the right and left forearms. These flows can be readily accounted for my the position of the arms which he has just determined.

Slowvehicle,
- There has been a lot written about the flow, shape and general nature of the different ‘blood stains.’ I know you don’t trust my judgment, but in my judgment, the characteristics that at first seem inappropriate/unexpected have all been adequately explained. And, being at first so unexpected, this stuff only adds to the evidence for authenticity.
- And then, the alleged artist has been so careful and accurate otherwise, why would he falter here?
- If you still think that these unexpected characteristics are ‘show stoppers,’ let me know and I’ll see what other examples and explanations I can find.
 
I am so impressed that this can go on forever!

Will it be a true proof of the resurrection, once the last skeptic dies of boredom or old age?
 
Lol. A pathologist examined the chest and found a blood stain over the right pectoral. Sounds so officious. Not at all like "some guy looked at a painting." Whose chest? Whose pectoral area?
 
Jabba said:
(much snippage)
- If you still think that these unexpected characteristics are ‘show stoppers,’ let me know and I’ll see what other examples and explanations I can find.
Click to expand...
Jabba, what part of the phrase medieval artefact do you not understand?

The cloth has been proven (as far as proof is possible) to have been manufactured some time in the 11th or 12th century. A thousand words or ten thousand words on the properties of the "blood" can't change that.
 
Blood/Mapping

- So, at this point, I'm going to start summarizing our understanding of the evidence.
- I'll do this over on my blog. I'll provide my understanding of 'where we are' regarding each sub-issue -- and, If any of you wish to add your summaries, I'll provide them as well. I would suggest that you add them yourself, but so far, I think that (or my suggestion that you do that) would actually be against the rules...

- Keep in mind that this is all experimental, and will surely require remodeling. Non-sarcastic suggestions for improvement are seriously encouraged.

- My first understanding of where we are with a particular sub-issue is in regard to the question of there being blood on the shroud. It appears to me that most of us think that there probably is blood on the shroud -- the real question is how it got there.

- Anyone else?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom