Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[lonepinealex]

Vixen is definitely not Mach, he or she is British for one thing.

 

[Vixen]

Don't think so.

Roger Guede settled in Perugia, the regional capital of Umbria, and found work as a building site labourer.
After a decade he decided to return to West Africa, leaving the teenage Rudy in the care of a wealthy Italian family, who informally adopted him

By Nick Squires, Perugia5:05PM BST 02 Oct 2011

From:

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

[Excerpt]
Through his work on the basketball team Rudy became friends with the son of wealthy entrepreneur, Paolo Caporali, owner of the Liomatic Vending Company, a company that made and maintained vending machines primarily for coffee. Caporali was the wealthiest person in Perugia and Liomatic owned the basketball team, and the gym in which they played and practiced. Rudy became friends with the children, who, after becoming familiar with Rudy’s circumstances, petitioned their father to adopt Rudy until he turned 18. Rudy was 16 at this time.

[excerpt ends] Jack Butler

It appears he was adopted = full Italian citizen (with dual Ivory Coast nationality, unless given up [unlikely]).

 

[RoseMontague]

The only pro-guilt person I have ever seen argue Rudy was receiving Housing Benefits was the former member here named Fulcanelli. I asked for cites several years ago and never got them from him either.

 

[Grinder]

I think I saw this in Luca Chelli's analysis, that you and I have discussed before, so I believe you have seen it too, though may have forgotten it.

(I thought I remember something like page 92 from Nencini? Is that possible? And I believe it came up in discussing the staged break-in, with Nencini trying to figure out who staged the break-in, since he already knows the break-in was staged because cassation told him so. SO its the presumption of judicial truth that leads Nencini down that path, which Nencini cheerfully admits. But Nencini's argument seems to be that since someone staged the break-in, it couldn't be GUede, because he would never stage a break-in in his usual style, because the police would recognize his style. WHy Guede would continue to use a break-in style that police associated with him on other jobs isn't really addressed. I never believed Nencini believed what he was writing, I think he was just playing a game, giving the verdict he felt was ordered, but loaded with so many errors that cassation could accept or reject it in entirety. I never thought Nencini was serious. Best I can do G on short notice).

Here is the Nencini section:

The second defense hypothesis, advanced this time by the defense of Raffaele Sollecito, relates to the fact that Rudy Hermann Guede could have entered the apartment not only because he was helped by someone having keys to the apartment but also because Meredith Kercher herself, who also knew him, could have opened the front door from the inside. The defense’s notion, thought-provoking and not without a theoretical plausibility, has no logical foundation in the evidence of this case.
Setting aside the fact that the young woman, when she left her English girlfriends after having spent an afternoon and evening with them, clearly stated that she was going home because she was tired, without mentioning any appointment with Rudy Hermann Guede, it was ascertained as fact that simulations and behaviors were carried out after the murder that were intended to convince the investigators that the perpetrator of the crime broke in from the outside through the window of Filomena Romanelli’s room, and this fact would not make sense in the scenario where Rudy Hermann Guede entered the house through the front door opened to him by the victim.
What need could he possibly have had, Rudy Hermann Guede, a notable nobody, to simulate a burglary? It is easy to see how that would have only attracted suspicion onto him, because it would have certainly required only a little time for the police to ascertain that robbing homes was an activity that Rudy Hermann Guede did not at all disdain doing.
Ultimately, a preliminary, objective, rational evaluation of the circumstantial evidence collected up to now, read in necessary logical correlation, leads one to hold that Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are the only two people who have, in themselves, all of the qualifications needed to perform the role of Rudy Hermann Guede’s accomplices in the murder of Meredith Kercher.


I think this has been misinterpreted. I Nencini is saying IF one assumes the defense argument is correct then the police would have been able to determine his MO and matched it.

It seems clear to me that Nencini IS NOT saying that the police should have recognized his MO.

This undoes the police informant being protected meme unless there is real evidence of such behavior.

 

[Vixen]

Well, here are the conditions for Italian citizenship based on naturalisation that could apply to Guede:

10 years' residence, no criminal record and sufficient financial resources

7 years' residence for children adopted by Italian citizens

[source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union#Acquisition]

So if he wasn't formally adopted, the second doesn't apply. The first may or may not apply, depending on his financial resources and criminal record to that point.

That answers the point about citizenship as far as any of us are likely to know with current information about Guede's background.

His entitlement to benefits therefore looks unlikely, especially if he mostly worked cash in hand.

In any case, as I said above, even if he was claiming benefits, it may not have been enough to cover his socialising and drug use.

Most EU countries provide "income support" for qualifying persons who do not have the necessary National Insurance contributions, which is means tested. This is a safety net that obviates anyone actually starving or being forced into burglary.

 

[Grinder]

The only pro-guilt person I have ever seen argue Rudy was receiving Housing Benefits was the former member here named Fulcanelli. I asked for cites several years ago and never got them from him either.

I thought it came out some time ago that his Italian mother was still in contact and helping him out. He lost his restaurant job in Milan because it went out of business. Then he worked for some company his dad owned or had influence in.

 

[acbytesla]

I really find it cheeky of you to ask after avoiding backing so many of your claims but I'll give you some fodder.


I'm 100% sure he was there when she was killed. It remains possible to me that others (not the kids) could have been involved. Koko being there and his story has always seemed a possible connection to Rudi. I can understand why Rudi wouldn't name anyone from the "gang".


Probably not but for those of us reading from the beginning, it is interesting that was what the police were telling the media. Why did they suspect a date?



Most likely but could have been with an accomplice.



The rent money.


Since you consider the nursery a B&E, then no. I don't buy CT and the lawyers' office really needed two to get the printer out unless they went out the door. Rudi had worked for some time and AFAIK had no arrests other than Milan. There is a great desire to have Rudi on some big crime wave but evidence of it are very skimpy.

You continue to repeat the Diaz caper but there is no support for the one account by a true crime writer.



Oh I thought we were trying to figure out as best possible what happened. I also thought we were discussing his "crime wave" and the contentions being made.

When challenged on whether he "broke in" and the victim is on record of saying at a later date there were no signs you claim maybe a window was open or forced and Prato never noticed. When it is pointed out that the nursery has barred windows you demur when asked.



When RW added the Spanish kids' account of many computers at Rudi's, that made me think more likely a fence. He was sleepy there on a weekend night into a day the nursery was closed. You jump from his being in an office without permission with some of the merch stolen elsewhere and you know he burgled the law offices and then you throw in two incidents of little credibility.



Beautiful. So what? Because many burglars aren't caught that means Rudi was on a "crime wave" Pffft.



It would seem more likely that a relative rookie would be unprepared for someone entering and over reacting.

If someone is caught in a house what charge could be brought? Since nothing was taken it wasn't burglary. He could have been charged with criminal trespass and destruction of property (window) but not theft. A veteran would have realized that.

Thank you for addressing my questions.

We'll never know just how active Rudy was as a burglar. You know it, so do I. There are in fact only "trails" to other burglaries. So we are all speculating. And while it wouldn't surprise me that Koko was involved, I don't believe he was there inside the cottage. Maybe he was transportation or a lookout...although this seems a stretch to me since he didn't do a good job.

Rudy seems to fit the profile of what the FBI calls a "sexual burglar". The burglary is as much a thrill as it is done for profit. Serial killers for example are more likely to have committed burglaries than any other criminal offense. The FBI considers them to be the most dangerous type of burglar. The descriptions of the crime scene at the law office, the nursery, the cottage and Diaz all fit that profile.

Most burglars work to minimize the amount of time in a victim's place. Get in and Get out. But all of these crimes, the burglar took their time, making food taking a dump, etc. which fits the "sexual burglar" profile. Also "sexual burglars" are almost always
loners.

It wouldn't surprise me that Koko had been someone Rudy committed burglaries with, but probably not these burglaries. Who wants a partner that takes these kind of chances?

I also don't buy the fence idea. Rudy doesn't have a phone, a vehicle or even Internet sccess. Who is going to buy stuff from a guy you can't even contact?

 

[RoseMontague]

From:

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

[Excerpt]
Through his work on the basketball team Rudy became friends with the son of wealthy entrepreneur, Paolo Caporali, owner of the Liomatic Vending Company, a company that made and maintained vending machines primarily for coffee. Caporali was the wealthiest person in Perugia and Liomatic owned the basketball team, and the gym in which they played and practiced. Rudy became friends with the children, who, after becoming familiar with Rudy’s circumstances, petitioned their father to adopt Rudy until he turned 18. Rudy was 16 at this time.

[excerpt ends] Jack Butler

It appears he was adopted = full Italian citizen (with dual Ivory Coast nationality, unless given up [unlikely]).

No evidence this actually happened is provided. My understanding is that it never did.

 

[Vixen]

Rudy was not formally adopted by the Caporali family. It was an informal arrangement in which they took him under their wing and guided him and provided for him. Formal adoption would have entailed inheritance rights and so forth.

Citation, please. Or would we be correct in assuming once again, this is pure conjecture on your part?

The Caporali's DID petition for adoption.

 

[Grinder]

From:

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

[Excerpt]
Through his work on the basketball team Rudy became friends with the son of wealthy entrepreneur, Paolo Caporali, owner of the Liomatic Vending Company, a company that made and maintained vending machines primarily for coffee. Caporali was the wealthiest person in Perugia and Liomatic owned the basketball team, and the gym in which they played and practiced. Rudy became friends with the children, who, after becoming familiar with Rudy’s circumstances, petitioned their father to adopt Rudy until he turned 18. Rudy was 16 at this time.

[excerpt ends] Jack Butler

It appears he was adopted = full Italian citizen (with dual Ivory Coast nationality, unless given up [unlikely]).

Ah yes the two year adoption program. So by your info he was no longer adopted. Okay. Back to square one.

Too bad the courts missed Jack Butler

 

[Vixen]

Sigh ... Vixen, irretrievably lost or abandoned goods belong to nobody and you can keep them if you find them. According to you, you are donating other people's money to charity without their consent! Arrest yourself at once and head for the nearest magistrate to learn your sentence.

"It is better to give than to receive." ~ Jesus

 

[RoseMontague]

I thought it came out some time ago that his Italian mother was still in contact and helping him out. He lost his restaurant job in Milan because it went out of business. Then he worked for some company his dad owned or had influence in.

He gives his education (Middle School) and work history in his March 2008 deposition.

 

[Grinder]

From:

http://www.raffaelesollecito.org/?p=636&lang=en

[Excerpt]
Through his work on the basketball team Rudy became friends with the son of wealthy entrepreneur, Paolo Caporali, owner of the Liomatic Vending Company, a company that made and maintained vending machines primarily for coffee. Caporali was the wealthiest person in Perugia and Liomatic owned the basketball team, and the gym in which they played and practiced. Rudy became friends with the children, who, after becoming familiar with Rudy’s circumstances, petitioned their father to adopt Rudy until he turned 18. Rudy was 16 at this time.

[excerpt ends] Jack Butler

It appears he was adopted = full Italian citizen (with dual Ivory Coast nationality, unless given up [unlikely]).

You're quoting Nina? HAHAHAHA

 

[js202]

The only pro-guilt person I have ever seen argue Rudy was receiving Housing Benefits was the former member here named Fulcanelli. I asked for cites several years ago and never got them from him either.

The Terminator-like insistence in the face of being demonstrably wrong is undeniably similar. Plus, I've always suspected that Michael may be a woman. And on the dole.

 

[RoseMontague]

Citation, please. Or would we be correct in assuming once again, this is pure conjecture on your part?

The Caporali's DID petition for adoption.

This is from Rudy's appeal trial. I doubt he would be under protection by social services if he was adopted...

Rudi Hermann Guede was born in Agou, Ivory Coast, 26 December 1986. At the age of 6 he came to Italy with his father (it seems his mother disappeared immediately after his birth: witness Gabriele Mancini), with whom he settled for a while in Perugia; once his father, with whom it emerges he had a difficult relationship, had to return to the Ivory Coast and having only an aunt living in Lecco as his only point of reference, the social services, who had already been called to take care of him, entrusted his care with various families in Umbria, the last one being the Caporali family, owners of the “Liomatic” company, that sponsored a basketball team in which he sometimes played; once he reached the age of eighteen and was no longer under the protection of social services, he started his drifting and disorganized lifestyle, showing an aversion to every type of commitment and responsibility: He would disappear and then reappear in Perugia, leaving comfortable positions of work, found for him by people willing to help him (though always showing to these people the better side of his character) or he would get himself dismissed, he would abandon his friends, only to reappear in moments of need.

 

[LondonJohn]

Citation, please. Or would we be correct in assuming once again, this is pure conjecture on your part?

The Caporali's DID petition for adoption.

No. You've either accidentally or deliberately misrepresented what was actually written in the passage you quoted.

What was actually written was that Paolo Caporali's children petitioned him (i.e. their father, Paolo Caporali) to adopt Guede.

So is it ignorance or mendacity that's led you to misrepresent things in this case - as so often in other instances? It would be interesting to know. Thanks

 

[Dan O.]

...
So Rudy Hermann Guede, certainly an expert at breaking and entering in order to commit burglary, according to specific previous instances, and wanting to break into the cottage on Via della Pergola, which he knew well, having found the metal security gate for the front door open, would never have entertained the idea of gaining access through the front door of the residence.
A front door that, apart from having a defective locking mechanism, as noted by Filomena Romanelli (though it may be objected that this detail might not have been known to Rudy Hermann Guede), appears in any case immediately upon seeing it, to be of slight solidity. Basically the front door has an interior lock that can easily be opened by knowledgeable people, a lock that certainly would not have resisted even a rather modest attempt to force it. Even if one were ready to accept that a person who decides to go and burglarize a residence that he knows perfectly well does not equip himself with at least a screwdriver of sizeable dimensions to force a very weak lock like the one shown in the photo of the Scientific Police.

Nencini appears to be talking about a recent disclosure that the standard euro locks can be broken and removed with simple tools. I have seen this widely reported in the last year but never came across it when I first started looking into this case. That Rudy was caught and searched only two weeks prior and not found in possession of a substantial screwdriver should be an indication that Rudy was not a break the lock type of burgler. The technique may not have been that widely known in 2007.

 

[Vixen]

I thought it came out some time ago that his Italian mother was still in contact and helping him out. He lost his restaurant job in Milan because it went out of business. Then he worked for some company his dad owned or had influence in.

His dad, Roger, was some kind of IT developer, which might explain the IT equipment Rudy accumulated, according to the Spanish woman.

 

[LondonJohn]

This is from Rudy's appeal trial. I doubt he would be under protection by social services if he was adopted...

But that official passage refers to Guede - with plenty of decent supporting evidence - as living a "drifting and disorganised lifestyle". Surely there must be some mistake! The pro-guilt commentators, after all, are always insisting that the term "drifter" could never be reasonably applied to Guede, and that it was nothing more than a pejorative attempt to denigrate him.......

 

[Vixen]

You're quoting Nina? HAHAHAHA

Hello? The attribution is, "Jack Butler".