Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

Unless she she knew full well they were stolen.

She didn't say they were her keys which it would seem to me would be the only way she could know they were stolen. But perhaps you have another read on it.

She recalled that there were other objects in the backpack: a bunch of keys, a small gold woman's watch, and a tiny hammer of the type found in buses to smash windows.

She specifically mentions in the video that the knife found stolen from the nursery kitchen.

 

[Numbers]

More to our case, Rudi was charged and convicted for possession. He was charged AFAIK for burglary of the lawyers' office or for breaking into the nursery.

Prosecutors can charge people for lots of things that won't hold up. With no other evidence besides possession I doubt many charge burglary but I'm sure you'll get the stats.

One of reasons burglars use fences is makes that much harder to connect to the more serious crime.

I like the Rudi defense as well; buying from a stranger in a public setting like a train station.
What is clear is that mere possession is not evidence BARD of burglary.

Missing from the equation here is that Rudi Guede had one or more burglar tools (a small hammer) on his person or in his back pack when the police were called to the nursery. Possession of stolen goods and one or more burglar tools would tend to suggest a burglar in the US.

Claiming to have bought the stolen goods from a stranger sounds like an uncertain defense for the US compared to having a receipt from, for example, a pawn shop. It all may depend on the value of the goods, as well. Would one buy a Picasso or $5000 worth of jewelery from a stranger in a train station? What about a used laptop computer worth, say, 100 or 200 Euros? What if the laptop were worth 1000 Euros?

And wouldn't it be odd to spend one's cash on the used laptop (costing 100 Euros?) and then have no money for a real if cheap hotel or pension, and so wind up staying, without the owner's permission, in a children's nursery. That one entered - in what way?

 

[Grinder]

Missing from the equation here is that Rudi Guede had one or more burglar tools (a small hammer) on his person or in his back pack when the police were called to the nursery. Claiming to have bought the stolen goods from a stranger sounds like an uncertain defense for the US compared to having a receipt from, for example, a pawn shop. It all may depend on the value of the goods, as well. Would one buy a Picasso or $5000 worth of jewelery from a stranger in a train station? What about a used laptop computer worth, say, 100 or 200 Euros? What if the laptop were worth 1000 Euros?

And wouldn't it be odd to spend one's cash on the used laptop (costing 100 Euros?) and then have no money for a real if cheap hotel or pension, and so wind up staying, without the owner's permission, in a children's nursery. That one entered - in what way?

So you are saying possession of a stolen Picasso would be enough evidence to prove or even charge the person with theft?

Obviously if one had a receipt from a pawn shop that would be a better defense, actually the best.

I don't find a person buying a laptop with his last dollar that strange. He entered by being let in maybe by the guy that sold him the laptop

Now if he had a big rock in his pack. I forget, was he charged with burglary of the lawyers' office?

 

[RoseMontague]

Lots of evidence. Italian tv produced a cctv video of Rudy following Amanda (or possibly Mez) into the cottage. The image is grainy, but the jacket the sinister figure is wearing, matches the quilted jacket Rudy was wearing when caught in Germany.

His travelling freely in the EU indicates EU citizenship, ipso facto, Italian residency at least.

Residents are not entitled to those benefits. Only citizens.

 

[RoseMontague]

The kindergarten is on the inside or of the building with an entrance through a courtyard. The windows are barred.

In the picture the windows have roll down security.

Maybe Vixen and you can work out Italian customs by Cali and English customs

I prefer the theory he used laser to cut them and then welded them back and flushed the laser and welder down the toilet. Do you think the bars on the bars are fixed?

The question was if every window was barred. That would appear to be a no.

 

[RoseMontague]

1. As Rudy seems to have had unrestricted travel to Germany, it suggests he had as a minimum Italian residence rights and rights as an EU Citizen. The claims therefore he would get no state support is imaginary.

No, the statutes have been posted. The benefits require citizenship.

 

[Annella]

Missing from the equation here is that Rudi Guede had one or more burglar tools (a small hammer) on his person or in his back pack when the police were called to the nursery. Possession of stolen goods and one or more burglar tools would tend to suggest a burglar in the US.

Claiming to have bought the stolen goods from a stranger sounds like an uncertain defense for the US compared to having a receipt from, for example, a pawn shop. It all may depend on the value of the goods, as well. Would one buy a Picasso or $5000 worth of jewelery from a stranger in a train station? What about a used laptop computer worth, say, 100 or 200 Euros? What if the laptop were worth 1000 Euros?

And wouldn't it be odd to spend one's cash on the used laptop (costing 100 Euros?) and then have no money for a real if cheap hotel or pension, and so wind up staying, without the owner's permission, in a children's nursery. That one entered - in what way?

I seem to recall Del Prato mentioning somewhere that a set of keys to her nursery was stolen during the break in/burglary of Oct 2nd/3rd 2007 and that is why a locksmith was there....to replace lock. 2000 euro's were stolen during that burglary and the thief cooked himself a meal of pasta and spinach. There is no mention of Guede being in possession of the stolen set of nursery keys when arrested ( IIRC) so how did he get in indeed! I suppose there is a chance he just dropped the keys someplace in the nursery and Ms Del Prato could have found them after Guede had been arrested and removed. Would she have bothered contacting Police? Or, could that set of keys found on his person also have had the nursery key on it? It would not have looked like the bunch of keys Del Prato would remember.
I am musing here......

ETA: Have been back to read Del Prato's testimony. She stated that the main door into nursery could be opened with a 'pugno' ( punch)!

 

[Numbers]

So you are saying possession of a stolen Picasso would be enough evidence to prove or even charge the person with theft?
Obviously if one had a receipt from a pawn shop that would be a better defense, actually the best.

I don't find a person buying a laptop with his last dollar that strange. He entered by being let in maybe by the guy that sold him the laptop

Now if he had a big rock in his pack. I forget, was he charged with burglary of the lawyers' office?

Yes. Based on my many of years of experience as (not) a prosecutor.

Of course, when the police will come to ask me about all the original Picassos I have, I shall explain to them that I bought them at considerable discount from someone (I don't really know his name) at the train station. You, Grinder, will be my defense attorney at the trial.


ETA: A famous painting will generally have its provenance detailed on its back. The last owner will no doubt verify the transfer to me for each painting. So your job as defense attorney should be straight-forward. Assuming all those previous owners tell the truth, right?

 

[Strozzi]

I know you don't want to irritate Anglo but I think you should make it clear these are only your thoughts. I could be that having not stolen the items he wanted to make that clear. He may have rationalized that fencing better than stealing.

Good point. Rudi may have been trying to bolster his story of having innocently purchased the laptop from a seller at the Milan train station. If so, Rudi is the astute one and this causes me to wonder why Mignini missed it, since Mig is so astute as to falsely describe Knox as astutely manipulating her police interrogators during the midnight interrogation.

 

[Grinder]

The question was if every window was barred. That would appear to be a no.

No, I believe all the windows into the nursery are barred. But perhaps some vulnerable windows are left unbarred.

The windows in the pic are not to the nursery.

 

[acbytesla]

I notice you didn't answer my questions Grinder. Maybe you missed them. So I'll try again.

Do you believe that Rudy killed Meredith?
Do you believe that he had a date with Meredith?
Do you believe that Rudy broke into the cottage?
If so, what was his motive for breaking into the cottage? Rape and murder?
Do you think that this was his first time breaking and entering?
Or committing burglary?

You see, I admit that there is not enough evidence to convict Rudy of any of the burglaries. That said, that isn't the threshold I was aiming at.

I am confident that there is more than enough evidence to convict Rudy of murder. It's the how and why that we are addressing.

Is it because Meredith out on a date with Rudy said no and this was a date rape and murder? Or is Rudy a small time burglar and in the act of burglarizing the cottage attacked Meredith when he was surprised in the act?

I do think that the evidence suggests that Rudy burglarized the law office and was caught in the act at the nursery. But there wasn't anything there for him to steal. Did he do Ms Diaz and Tremantano's? Maybe. But I seriously doubt that Rudy had only done just the cottage and the law office.

The clearance rate for reported burglaries in the US is 14 percent. But it is estimated that only about 50 percent of burglaries are even reported. So that means only 7 percent of all burglaries are solved.
So, about 1 in 14 are solved. My guess is that some burglars are better than others so some might get away with hundreds and some only get away with a few.

We'll never know how many jobs he pulled. But it is not likely that he murdered a resident on his first job. What do you think Grinder?

 

[MichaelB]

Here's some interesting photos of the luminol.

Is it possible it's reacting to something that was applied to the floor the day they were taken?

Why is the top of the CSI guys booties, the ruler and the little pebble reacting?

Here's the original: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/luminol2.jpg

 

[anglolawyer]

1. As Rudy seems to have had unrestricted travel to Germany, it suggests he had as a minimum Italian residence rights and rights as an EU Citizen. The claims therefore he would get no state support is imaginary.

2. Police found a knife and bloodstained tissues in the bushes, so perhaps they were staged, too, together with the outsize rock.

Schengen. Twice Ninja'd

Technically speaking, in England, if you see a coin on the ground, pick it up and keep it, it is theft.

Police will ask a suspected burglar for receipts. IIRC They have the power.

Technically speaking, it's not. The missing ingredient is dishonesty, without which there is no theft. If you found a briefcase containing a million dollars you had better turn that in.

I don't think you understand how difficult it is to convict people for crimes. If the person were found with stolen merchandise but there was nothing else to tie him to burglary it would be a tough conviction. If they had an ID on the car or the people that's different. If they could get prints from the heist that would be different.

Being close to the prosecution here I know it is a struggle.

Grinder is right.

I know you don't want to irritate Anglo but I think you should make it clear these are only your thoughts. I could be that having not stolen the items he wanted to make that clear. He may have rationalized that fencing better than stealing.

The visit to the law firm is a mystery. If Rudy was an informer it could be that his handler told him to straighten things out with the lawyers to persuade them not to press charges as his hands would be tied otherwise. Then came the murder and all bets were off - except the one where his status would be kept secret in return for a cushy prison term without being rubbed out. I speculate.

 

[Planigale]

The link is drugs.

Any evidence Guede was involved in the drugs trade?
Any evidence that knox bought drugs from anyone in Italy?

 

[Planigale]

Kokomani saw them all together outside the cottage, as he originally told police. Rudy was terrified of the drug dealers on the cathedral steps. It indicates he was in some kind of drug debt.

He was waiting outside the cottage for Amanda, as she owed him for drugs. Mez understandably was fed up, with yet another strange man at the flat. Her anger was the pretext for the premeditated slaying. Koko saw Amanda outside waving a knife, spoiling for a fight, completely off her head, together with Raf and Rudy.

Police are not looking for any other suspects.

One of the many persisting errors in criminal investigation is the inadequate management of eye witnesses. There is really no attempt by any to see if the witnesses can identify Knox or Sollecito from a line up or from a selection of photographs. Kokomani did not know Knox or Sollecito, So how did he know who they were? Why did Guede never mention meeting him? Why was this not seen on CCTV? Why were Knox Sollecito and Guede not seen? Why did the people in the broken down car not see this scene?

 

[anglolawyer]

Even Massei dismissed Koko's story of the Battle of The Olives in which the bin liner came off worse.

 

[Planigale]

1. As Rudy seems to have had unrestricted travel to Germany, it suggests he had as a minimum Italian residence rights and rights as an EU Citizen. The claims therefore he would get no state support is imaginary.

2. Police found a knife and bloodstained tissues in the bushes, so perhaps they were staged, too, together with the outsize rock.

1) Shengen area, no internal borders. Guide had Italian residence, not citizen ship, he is not an Italian citizen, nor an EU citizen. Ivorian citizen with Italian residence. In the UK you do not have to be a British nor a UK citizen to get benefits. Residence is sufficient.

 

[MichaelB]

I still can't believe this gem from the recent document dump.

Lumumba to the Daily Mail:

He next saw Meredith at a party he threw in the club for his employees a couple of days later. “She made everyone two rounds of her special mojitos,” he says. “She was sparkly and cheery and lifted everyone’s spirits. I bumped into her again in town soon after. I asked her if she wanted to have a spell behind the bar when I next had a female DJ playing, as a kind of ladies’ night.
“She jumped at the chance, although she’d stopped coming into Le Chic, and I heard she wasn’t hanging around with Amanda much either. I wasn’t surprised. The two couldn’t have been more different.” Amanda, meanwhile, was becoming increasingly erratic. “Her moods started swinging from docile and lazy to hyperactive and flighty. “I knew she smoked cannabis and it was impossible to predict which one she’d be. “I told her I’d asked Meredith to come and work for me and her face dropped and there was a big silence. Then she said, ‘Fine,’ and stropped off. I knew then she was extremely jealous of Meredith. She obviously thought she was invading her territory.”

Lumumba to the police November 6, 2007:

I have never been to Amanda’s house. I don’t know where Amanda’s house is. I’ve never met Meredith in my life.

 

[MichaelB]

Photo of Nike Outbreak 2's from Rinaldi's 2008 report.

 

[Kauffer]

I still can't believe this gem from the recent document dump.

Lumumba to the Daily Mail:



Lumumba to the police November 6, 2007:

Did the Mail make all this up or did Lumumba?