Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Chris_Halkides]

two sizes fit all

Dr.Gill prostituted himself for the Raf defense. Wasn't cross examined, never saw the evidence first hand. There's no accounting for negligent stupidity.

Vixen,

According to pro-guilt commenters the pro-innocence experts who did not testify are to be ignored because they were not cross-examined, and the defense experts who did testify are just prostituting themselves for the money. One of many reasons why this fails is that the arguments could just as easily be applied to pro-guilt experts. Another is that one of Dr. Gill's peers* said that no one has done more for DNA profiling over the last thirty years than he has. Dr. Gill's book will be read for many years. Why would he say things that he thinks are wrong? It would only sully his reputation.
*John Butler, author of the most widely used set of textbook on DNA profiling.

 

[RoseMontague]

Did they share a balcony? It could have been locked from the inside with the perp climbing out on to the balcony to the adjacent room.

No

 

[Chris_Halkides]

We have a winner

If it looked like nothing was stolen and Amanda indicated to Filomena she didn't notice anything was stolen, why would he not say nothing was stolen?

Bingo! It is easy to second guess his words with the benefit of hindsight (Raf himself did this in his book). But what he said made some sense at the time.

 

[Grinder]

Amanda stated she worked at Le Chic in the VSIs of Nov. 2 and of Nov. 3. If Patrick Lumumba is not mentioned, perhaps either she wasn't asked who was or boss, or it wasn't incorporated into the documents. The police could easily find out who the proprietor of Le Chic was. If one thinks more broadly, should the police have asked who Amanda's teachers were at the University for Foreigners in Perugia? They could have had as much connection with the case as Lumumba was imagined to have, on Nov. 5 at least, by the police.

I think the professors would be another level or two down. The police asked about the boys and other men that might have known Mez. I think they would have asked Amanda if Mez had frequented Le Chic. They would have asked about other men from the club that knew her.

 

[Grinder]

Bingo! It is easy to second guess his words with the benefit of hindsight (Raf himself did this in his book). But what he said made some sense at the time.

Yes Chris, so even Raf admits it was suspicious to say.

 

[Numbers]

A good clue the burglary is staged, is finding a body behind lock and key and nothing taken, except personal effects of the victim.

Please explain why your statement is a good clue that a burglary is staged rather than the simpler case: the break-in was the means of entry of a burglar who was interrupted by Meredith entering her flat, and the burglar then attacked, sexually assaulted, and murdered Meredith.

 

[Numbers]

I saw Amanda lying about drugs in her 3rd November statement. I find that amazing. There had been a brutal murder in her apartment and she and the others seriously thought the police are going to give a **** about some pot? Or that it might not be relevant to them to know about it? That lie did her no good at all.

Certainly an error on Amanda's part. In WTBH, she states that Laura asked her not to admit to the mj use among the flatmates (to protect the careers of the future lawyers?), and that she complied (until the beginning of the Nov. 5 interrogation).

 

[Kauffer]

I would have not taken the phones or credit cards. I would have quickly checked the other girl's rooms for cash.

I know it's not popular here, but the scene in Filomena's was odd. He went in there and threw around some clothes but wasn't organizing stuff in a pile or in the ubiquitous pillow case to haul it away. He just tossed stuff around and then went to the bathroom. Now of course it makes sense that he wouldn't want to haul off anything of size after the murder.

Perhaps he stole Romanelli's stash? She would hardly have reported it. But he probably thought he had oodles of time, that everyone was away for the long weekend and made himself at home for a bit. After the murder, that sense of available time has evaporated. He's covered in blood, so much that he has to rinse and there on the bed is a purse. I don't find it odd at all but I understand your reasons.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Rudi's DNA; forensic bias

If it really is a scientific truth that mixed DNA means diddly squat, then why did Amanda claim the blood must have come from her earrings? Presumably somebody wanted to know.

Why would you make claims that the DNA evidence against Rudy is sound, but rubbish for Amanda and Raf unless you compromised your standards.

Science should be objective, not based on, "It depends on whose DNA we are talking about".

Vixen,

There was a spot of blood on the faucet, and Amanda's DNA alone showed up (meaning not mixed with anyone else's). it is a reasonable inference that Amanda's ear was the source. IIRC I saw a pillowcase of hers with a blood spot, which is consistent with her having an infected ear.

With respect to Rudi's DNA, let's recap our arguments, given many times previously (even within the last three weeks and for your benefit). One, you could toss all of Rudi's DNA and still convict him at least twice over, maybe three times. Two (apart from any other consideration), Rudi's DNA is slightly more incriminating than Raffaele's and way more incriminating than Amanda's, because she lived there and Raf visited there. Three, if Rudi's DNA were in the low template range and collected/processed exactly as the knife profile, I would toss it in a New York minute. Four, if Rudi's DNA were mixed with other men's the way the bra clasp sample was mixed, I would say it doesn't have much value. Five, if all of the evidence were collected as late and as badly as the bra clasp, then it would not have much, if any, value.

Yes, science should be objective. When Brad Bannon was preparing to defend David Evans (one of the Duke lacrosse three), he read John Butler's textbook on DNA profiling. His cross examination of Dr. Brian Meehan was one of the pivotal moments of the case. For the newest edition of his textbook Dr. Butler asked Mr. Bannon some questions, including his common tactics in challenging DNA evidence. Mr. Bannon replied in part, "Did the lab follow acceptable standards of DNA analysis? Did it follow its own protocols? Is the lab applying those standards and protocols consistently or selectively? For example, why do you call a peak below 150 RFU as a true allele for one purpose, or in one case, but not for another? If there are such internal inconsistencies, do they usually inure to the benefit of one side's theory of the case? If so, is that evidence of bias?"

Mr. Bannon's ideas on threshold are consistent with what Rudin and Inman said. The textbook An Introduction to Forensic DNA analysis, 2nd ed. (Rudin, N. and Inman, K., CRC Press 2002, p. 121) states, “It is important to have some predetermined limit to distinguish what is signal and what is noise.”

 

[Vixen]

They eventually arrest Rudy and he tries to blame it on a left handed Italian stranger who came in and stabbed Meredith while he was on the toilet.

As a matter of interest, isn't Raf supposedly ambidextrous? You can write with your right hand, but do all sorts of things with your left.

 

[Numbers]

I am having a problem with them for length. I'm also eagerly waiting for the 4th November "verbale", both because it will give us all the interview material and because we already have some very interesting knowledge of what took place in that one to compare with the official record. There was a total of more than 53 hours of questioning up to the arrest. But, do we know for sure that the 2nd, 3rd and 4th interviews were or were not recorded? If they were, did the tapes get passed to the defence?

Were there 53 hours of questioning before the arrest, or 53 hours of presence with the police?

Some of Amanda's time in police presence at the police station or at the flat was waiting time.

Good question about whether or not the Nov. 2, 3, and 4 interviews were recorded, and if so, if the recordings were provided to the defense. Is anyone aware of any mention of such recordings?

 

[Kauffer]

Certainly an error on Amanda's part. In WTBH, she states that Laura asked her not to admit to the mj use among the flatmates (to protect the careers of the future lawyers?), and that she complied (until the beginning of the Nov. 5 interrogation).

Thinking about this again after all this time, Mezzetti and Romanelli were probably rightly terrified that their careers were about to ruined.

 

[Numbers]

I would have not taken the phones or credit cards. I would have quickly checked the other girl's rooms for cash.

I know it's not popular here, but the scene in Filomena's was odd. He went in there and threw around some clothes but wasn't organizing stuff in a pile or in the ubiquitous pillow case to haul it away. He just tossed stuff around and then went to the bathroom. Now of course it makes sense that he wouldn't want to haul off anything of size after the murder.

Ron Hendry has suggested, based on photo evidence, that the rock thrown through the window hit the wardrobe cabinet in Filomena's room and the resulting vibration knocked clothes off the top shelf onto the floor. If this hypothesis is true, Guede was not necessarily tossing or rummaging around in the clothes found on the floor.

 

[Vixen]

That is your answer for all the LEGITIMATE experts that have spoken out against the poor forensic work performed. But what you absolutely fail to come to grips with is Gill's peers have not challenged his findings, but instead agree with him.

Now again, what are the moron Peter Quennell's advanced degrees in forensics? I'm waiting for his qualifications.

No, these are just the ones who have put themselves forward as campaigners. They see themselves as championing a worthy cause. The "baaad cops vs two sweet kids", etc.

In the UK we had Prime Minister Tony Bliar getting professors to write papers in support of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[Kauffer]

No, these are just the ones who have put themselves forward as campaigners. They see themselves as championing a worthy cause. The "baaad cops vs two sweet kids", etc.

In the UK we had Prime Minister Tony Bliar getting professors to write papers in support of Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraw.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Which professors? Careful now! There was a PHD thesis he had pulled off the internet, but professors? I'd like to see that evidence.

Where were the forensic scientist campaigners for the "worthy cause" of putting Amanda and Raffaele in jail?

 

[Numbers]

I think the professors would be another level or two down. The police asked about the boys and other men that might have known Mez. I think they would have asked Amanda if Mez had frequented Le Chic. They would have asked about other men from the club that knew her.

These are good points, but the question is how complete would (or should) the police be. Did they investigate who Meredith knew in her classes? One could hypothesize a rejected and abnormal male admirer from one of her classes deciding to break into the flat and laying in wait for her. This is just meant as an example of one path an open-minded police investigation might consider.

Instead, the police focused on the people associated with the cottage because of convenience, and adopted the view that the break-in was staged. It would be interesting if there was some legitimate contemporary (from Nov. 2-5, pre-interrogation) documentation found showing that the police had adopted this view.

 

[Grinder]

Ron Hendry has suggested, based on photo evidence, that the rock thrown through the window hit the wardrobe cabinet in Filomena's room and the resulting vibration knocked clothes off the top shelf onto the floor. If this hypothesis is true, Guede was not necessarily tossing or rummaging around in the clothes found on the floor.

Sure. Most of my clothes would fall down if a rock landed in my bedroom. Is there any evidence of the rock hitting the wardrobe?

 

[Vixen]

So what, then, is the point of bringing up the washing machine? If Amanda/Raffaele or anyone else for that matter didn't use it in the wee-hours of Nov 2nd, then why is it even being brought up?

Even though I distrust your claim - given with no citation - you've just offered "evidence" against the argument you'd originally intended.

Unlike you, Bill, I don't have any particular agenda. Police are trained to simply report objectively what they saw, what was said, the time, the appearance, etc, without ascribing any motive, value judgement or a second guess. Judges wish that all witnesses could be similarly straightforward and let, um, the Judges be the Judge.

 

[Grinder]

These are good points, but the question is how complete would (or should) the police be. Did they investigate who Meredith knew in her classes? One could hypothesize a rejected and abnormal male admirer from one of her classes deciding to break into the flat and laying in wait for her. This is just meant as an example of one path an open-minded police investigation might consider.

Instead, the police focused on the people associated with the cottage because of convenience, and adopted the view that the break-in was staged. It would be interesting if there was some legitimate contemporary (from Nov. 2-5, pre-interrogation) documentation found showing that the police had adopted this view.

They initially speculated it was someone she had met at the party. They interviewed every man connected to Mez they could find AFAIK. Maybe they did go to her school.

 

[Kauffer]

Unlike you, Bill, I don't have any particular agenda. Police ate trained to simply report objectively what they saw, what was said, the time, the appearance, etc, without ascribing any motive, value judgement or a second guess. Judges wiah that all witnesses could be similarly straightforward and let, um, the Judges be the Judge.

You don't have an agenda? Really? If just half the falsehoods you put up here were true then all of us here would believe Amanda guilty.