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New Disclosures on Benghazi

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The accountability review board report has been completely discredited.
Argument by assertion is a fallacy.

They also did not have access to Hillary's emails nor the Rhodes memo.

I am not sure why you have not addressed my several points on the withheld evidence. Did you read my links.

Your Bush comment is a pure tu quoque fallacy, and a complete derail. But lets run with that, are you saying that there should have been investigations on the attacks during the Bush administration? What about the several other attacks during the Obama administration? You do know that there were several other attacks under Obama right?

To be a tu quoque fallacy the arguer must attempt to justify behavior. I've no need to justify behavior. If Obama or anyone in his cabinet failed in their duties then I want them prosecuted. I'm pointing out that after all of these investigations you have absolutely nothing except your bias.
 
Yes. Of course. There are multiple reports that make this abundantly clear.

That's factcheck.org

Obama? What? Have you read any of the reports? What does Obama have to do with anything?


It's interesting that you should ask that of the President of the United States when a diplomatic facility is overrun and a US ambassador is missing and possibly dead or gravely injured. Even if it's possible that he was available to make any necessary strategic decisions, don't you think it would be unseemly for him not to attend to such a tragic situation personally. What if he had headed out to the golf course shortly after meeting with Panetta? Would you think that was appropriate?

<snip>

Is this important to you? Why?


I'd like to know how aloof and uncaring my President is. Actually, I already know. I'd like other people to find out.

Prior to Benghazi there were 13 attacks that left 60 people dead Where was Bush after the briefing for each attack? How many hearings have been held? Do you care? Does it matter to anyone? Or is your motivation political?


Once again you've demonstrated your unwillingness to read to the end of your sources. Here, let me quote the important bits:

Still, these experts also said there are valid reasons to treat Benghazi differently from the earlier attacks.

...

One reason, he said, is that an American ambassador died in the attack, which hadn’t happened since the 1970s. Another relevant question, Gartenstein-Ross said, "is whether what happened was put to the American people in an honest manner, not just with respect to the administration, but also with respect to the intelligence community."

...

"As always, what causes the problem is not so much what happens, but the response to it," said Theodore R. Bromund, a senior research fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation. "‘If the administration had come out shortly after the attack and said, ‘Our consulate was attacked by organized Islamist forces, and we will pursue these terrorists and bring them to justice, one way or the other,’ I very much doubt there would be much juice in these hearings, if indeed they were being held at all."

Lance Janda, a military historian at Cameron University, agreed that Benghazi brings up important issues.

"We probably should have had more United States forces on site or at least nearby," he said. And the administration had a "muddled response in terms of releasing information," he added.
 
Ah, yes, the GOP's McGuffin again. Surely there must be something incriminating in those e-mails...

Rhodes memo? You read it right?

I also do not believe that you are using the reference to McGuffin correctly.

We know that Hillary intentionally destroyed 30,000 plus emails. That is a fact, not a plot device (unless your intent is to use the McGuffin claim to distract attention from the destruction of evidence)

I understand that her supporters don't care and wish the Benghazi investigation would go away. That is not going to happen.
 
It's interesting that you should ask that of the President of the United States when a diplomatic facility is overrun and a US ambassador is missing and possibly dead or gravely injured. Even if it's possible that he was available to make any necessary strategic decisions, don't you think it would be unseemly for him not to attend to such a tragic situation personally.
As "unseemly" as not wearing a flag on his lapel. I don't care about empty symbolism. It's that kind of silliness that I cannot stand.

What if he had headed out to the golf course shortly after meeting with Panetta? Would you think that was appropriate?
Should a president act in a dignified and caring fashion? Yes. Is it withing their realm to make fux paus? Ah, yeah. I don't know of a president in my lifetime that hasn't done something inappropriate. Wrong is wrong. Outrage? Oh, yeah, sure, I'm, peeved, frustrated, I don't know, time to join a militia I guess and call for Obama's impeachment.

I'd like to know how aloof and uncaring my President is. Actually, I already know. I'd like other people to find out.
You mean you found something to justify your bias.

Once again you've demonstrated your unwillingness to read to the end of your sources. Here, let me quote the important bits:
What exactly there do you think I disagree with? Different doesn't mean that the Americans who died in the other attacks had no value. It doesn't mean that America wasn't the subject of terrorism.
 
It's interesting that you should ask that of the President of the United States when a diplomatic facility is overrun and a US ambassador is missing and possibly dead or gravely injured. Even if it's possible that he was available to make any necessary strategic decisions, don't you think it would be unseemly for him not to attend to such a tragic situation personally. What if he had headed out to the golf course shortly after meeting with Panetta? Would you think that was appropriate?




I'd like to know how aloof and uncaring my President is. Actually, I already know. I'd like other people to find out.




Once again you've demonstrated your unwillingness to read to the end of your sources. Here, let me quote the important bits:

Wait, let me get this straight - your big concern is not about what happened but what was said about it later?

And that is worth how many investigations?

awwwww
 
Argument by assertion is a fallacy.


To be a tu quoque fallacy the arguer must attempt to justify behavior. I've no need to justify behavior. If Obama or anyone in his cabinet failed in their duties then I want them prosecuted. I'm pointing out that after all of these investigations you have absolutely nothing except your bias.

Avid readers of the thread are aware of the numerous reasons why the ARB was flawed (didn't interview Clinton or review her docs, Kerry rescinded the penaltis as unfounded) and you still have not mentioned the missing documents that impeded the previous investigations.

The highlighted parts should be self explanatory.:)
 
As "unseemly" as not wearing a flag on his lapel. I don't care about empty symbolism. It's that kind of silliness that I cannot stand.

What makes it "empty symbolism" is when he pretends to care, but doesn't really care. If he's not even willing to do the work required to pretend to care, but instead simply lies about caring and goes to great lengths to hide the fact that he doesn't care and lashes out at his critics for calling him on it, then that's far worse than "empty symbolism." Being a successful politician is all about "empty symbolism" anyway. It just so happens that Obama's symbolism is emptier than most, comprising lots of talk, but very few deeds.

Should a president act in a dignified and caring fashion? Yes. Is it withing their realm to make fux paus? Ah, yeah. I don't know of a president in my lifetime that hasn't done something inappropriate. Wrong is wrong. Outrage? Oh, yeah, sure, I'm, peeved, frustrated, I don't know, time to join a militia I guess and call for Obama's impeachment.

Or, you know, support a Congressional investigation and not piss and moan about it. I mean the reason we're on our 8th investigation (I'm trusting jhunter's count here) is that none of the other investigations had the power to break through the stonewall erected by this administration. I doubt the current one will either. Without either media support or bipartisan support, a Congressional committee is virtually powerless to force the administration to comply with subpoenas and the like.

I have raised the issue before of what Watergate would have looked like if the media had been uninterested in pursuing it, and the Republicans in Congress had decided on a policy of obstruction. It would have looked like a partisan witch hunt. The Nixon administration would have gotten away with whatever it is they did (which was mostly the cover up by the way), and Nixon would have served two terms and been considered a generally good President.

You mean you found something to justify your bias.

Perhaps you should consider your own biases. You don't even finish reading past the parts of articles you agree with. If Polifact marks something as True that you like, that's good enough it seems, regardless of what the article actually means.

What exactly there do you think I disagree with? Different doesn't mean that the Americans who died in the other attacks had no value. It doesn't mean that America wasn't the subject of terrorism.

The vast, vast majority of the people who died in the other attacks were not Americans. In fact, there were actually no American diplomats killed on diplomatic property during Bush's administration. There was one who was killed in an adjacent parking lot in a car bomb attack. For the most part, the attacks during the Bush administration, as well as attacks during the Obama administration, with the exception of Benghazi, were unavoidable and required very little investigation. It's virtually impossible to stop terrorists from taking potshots at guards outside your embassy or throwing a Molotov cocktail at it. However, keeping a US ambassador safe? That seems to be more doable. Also, telling the truth about what happened and not obfuscating it or trying to put the blame on a Youtube video should be expected I think. Basically, none of the other diplomatic facility attacks are in any way relevant. They're complete red herrings. To bring them up in defense of Obama is simply dishonest misdirection.
 
Benghazi Committee Releases Letter on State Department Compliance Failure, Clinton

Select Committee on Benghazi Chairman Trey Gowdy today sent a letter to Secretary of State John Kerry on the Department’s failure to produce responsive emails and records for top State officials more than a half-year after they were first requested.

“Secretary Clinton is insistent she will appear once and only once before the Select Committee,” said Gowdy, R-S.C. “The Committee must be equally insistent that her appearance is thorough and fully productive. This requires the record to be complete so the Members can effectively base their questions on documents and the Secretary can base her answers on those same documents.


Avid readers are no doubt aware of the Clinton email fiasco, which is being covered in another thread.

Experts have noted that Huma Abedin had a clintonemails.com email address. No emails from Abedin have been turned over.

In her press conference at the UN, Clinton claimed that her emails were logged because she emailed her aides on their official accounts. So the question of the hour is: where are they and why haven't they been turned over?
 
I also do not believe that you are using the reference to McGuffin correctly.

We know that Hillary intentionally destroyed 30,000 plus emails. That is a fact, not a plot device (unless your intent is to use the McGuffin claim to distract attention from the destruction of evidence).

The reference is exactly correct; the Republicans are attempting to use the deleted e-mails as a device to justify investigating Clinton indefinitely. "There could be anything in there!" they cry. "We HAVE to see the e-mails!"

The fact of the matter is that the e-mail brouhaha is rapidly receding from public consciousness, as new Republican missteps bubble to the fore, and the Benghazi nonsense will follow suit after Clinton appears in front of the committee again. Soon, the only discussion of Benghazi will be among hyperpartisan Republicans on discussion boards.
 
Why should any e-mails from Abedin be produced? What official responsibility did she bear for Benghazi? She was Clinton's chief of staff. That did not confer on her any official diplomatic responsibilities whatsoever.

I am at a loss to understand your question. Huma Abedin was at all times Hillary Clinton's Deputy Chief of Staff in the State Department. the WaPo wrote “Abedin…is one of Clinton’s most-trusted advisers on the Middle East….When Clinton hosts meetings on the region, Abedin’s advice is always sought.”

The Select Committee has requested those emails and for Abedin to testify.

those are the facts.
 
I don't care about advice. Clinton could ask anyone she wanted for advice. She could ask Abedin. She could ask her husband; after all, he was President of the United States. Hell, she could ask you for all I care. This investigation clearly isn't about "finding out what happened". We've had eight investigations. We know what happened. This is simply yet another GOP attempt to somehow connect Clinton to something that could possibly be construed as somewhat scandalous. Somehow.
 
I don't care about advice. Clinton could ask anyone she wanted for advice. She could ask Abedin. She could ask her husband; after all, he was President of the United States. Hell, she could ask you for all I care. This investigation clearly isn't about "finding out what happened". We've had eight investigations. We know what happened. This is simply yet another GOP attempt to somehow connect Clinton to something that could possibly be construed as somewhat scandalous. Somehow.

You don't care about advice. Ok....

You have mentioned the eight investigations repeatedly.

I have explained, with links, that the previous investigations were incomplete and compromised due to the failure of the Administration to cooperate.

I have pointed to specific documents and categories of documents that were withheld. Further, I have linked to reports from the Select Committee regarding evidence that had previously never been given to any Committee.

In light of that comments such as "We know what happened" are simply without merit and have no place on a site that is dedicated to skeptical thinking.

I am baffled why people are complaining about the investigation, because it is pointless. The investigation is going to go ahead despite the fulminations of Hillary's supporters.

I don't really care about Hillary's fans complaints at this point, you "know" what happened, so why bother?
 
You don't care about advice. Ok....

You have mentioned the eight investigations repeatedly.

I have explained, with links, that the previous investigations were incomplete and compromised due to the failure of the Administration to cooperate.

I have pointed to specific documents and categories of documents that were withheld. Further, I have linked to reports from the Select Committee regarding evidence that had previously never been given to any Committee.

In light of that comments such as "We know what happened" are simply without merit and have no place on a site that is dedicated to skeptical thinking.

I am baffled why people are complaining about the investigation, because it is pointless. The investigation is going to go ahead despite the fulminations of Hillary's supporters.

I don't really care about Hillary's fans complaints at this point, you "know" what happened, so why bother?

That they 'got more documents' is not evidence in any way shape or form that the further investigations are justified. Have those additional documents shown any wrongdoing, or furthered the official justifications for the investigations? Well, you say yes, most everyone else says no.

There are always more documents to get. Once you get the last batch, you just claim you need a another new batch. That other people don't want them publicized isn't good evidence that it's nefarious. A very plausible alternate explanation for the 'non-cooperation' is that they don't have trust in the integrity of the investigation/investigators.

If the bar is 'we have more documents and interviews' is being used, that's a very low bar and could be used to justify any investigation of anything.
 
Avid readers of the thread are aware of the numerous reasons why the ARB was flawed (didn't interview Clinton or review her docs, Kerry rescinded the penaltis as unfounded) and you still have not mentioned the missing documents that impeded the previous investigations.

The highlighted parts should be self explanatory.
You are throwing out 25,000 pages of documents from 7 different investigation on the unwarranted assumptions that perhaps this time there will be something there.

Hint: There won't.
 
What makes it "empty symbolism" is when he pretends to care, but doesn't really care. If he's not even willing to do the work required to pretend to care, but instead simply lies about caring and goes to great lengths to hide the fact that he doesn't care and lashes out at his critics for calling him on it, then that's far worse than "empty symbolism." Being a successful politician is all about "empty symbolism" anyway. It just so happens that Obama's symbolism is emptier than most, comprising lots of talk, but very few deeds.

Or, you know, support a Congressional investigation and not piss and moan about it. I mean the reason we're on our 8th investigation (I'm trusting jhunter's count here) is that none of the other investigations had the power to break through the stonewall erected by this administration. I doubt the current one will either. Without either media support or bipartisan support, a Congressional committee is virtually powerless to force the administration to comply with subpoenas and the like.

I have raised the issue before of what Watergate would have looked like if the media had been uninterested in pursuing it, and the Republicans in Congress had decided on a policy of obstruction. It would have looked like a partisan witch hunt. The Nixon administration would have gotten away with whatever it is they did (which was mostly the cover up by the way), and Nixon would have served two terms and been considered a generally good President.

Perhaps you should consider your own biases. You don't even finish reading past the parts of articles you agree with. If Polifact marks something as True that you like, that's good enough it seems, regardless of what the article actually means.

The vast, vast majority of the people who died in the other attacks were not Americans. In fact, there were actually no American diplomats killed on diplomatic property during Bush's administration. There was one who was killed in an adjacent parking lot in a car bomb attack. For the most part, the attacks during the Bush administration, as well as attacks during the Obama administration, with the exception of Benghazi, were unavoidable and required very little investigation. It's virtually impossible to stop terrorists from taking potshots at guards outside your embassy or throwing a Molotov cocktail at it. However, keeping a US ambassador safe? That seems to be more doable. Also, telling the truth about what happened and not obfuscating it or trying to put the blame on a Youtube video should be expected I think. Basically, none of the other diplomatic facility attacks are in any way relevant. They're complete red herrings. To bring them up in defense of Obama is simply dishonest misdirection.
Your post is almost entirely vacuous and empty rhetoric. I'm not at all interested in any of that. I'd like to have a discussion where people provide substantive arguments and evidence to back up their claims.

This is all trivial ad hoc rationalizing, cherry picking, special pleading.

Take for example, all of those attacks and, "nothing to see here". We will stick our heads in the sand when we are being attacked because "no American deaths". Really?

I'm sorry, but you've got the wrong person. Thank you though.
 
That they 'got more documents' is not evidence in any way shape or form that the further investigations are justified. Have those additional documents shown any wrongdoing, or furthered the official justifications for the investigations? Well, you say yes, most everyone else says no.

There are always more documents to get. Once you get the last batch, you just claim you need a another new batch. That other people don't want them publicized isn't good evidence that it's nefarious. A very plausible alternate explanation for the 'non-cooperation' is that they don't have trust in the integrity of the investigation/investigators.

If the bar is 'we have more documents and interviews' is being used, that's a very low bar and could be used to justify any investigation of anything.

Most everyone? Come on....

I didn't say that the bar was "we have more documents" I said that "the bar" was clear proof that State and the Administration wrongfully withheld evidence despite their representations that they cooperated. That was why the Select Committee was created. Of course they showed wrongdoing, they showed that the Administration lied about cooperating and turning over evidence (plus it showed that the obviously false talking points came from Ben Rhodes and not the intelligence services)

You think that the target of an investigations claim that they don't trust the "integrity" of the investigation is a plausible basis to justify non-cooperation?????

That is ridiculous and fortunately no one has actually used that as an excuse.
 
I'd like to add, "They haven't received the answer(s) they want yet."

Yes. The answer they want is that Hillary is guilty of something when it comes to Benghazi. The fact that she isn't guilty makes it very hard for them to get the answer that they want.
 
You are throwing out 25,000 pages of documents from 7 different investigation on the unwarranted assumptions that perhaps this time there will be something there.

Hint: There won't.

"throwing out"? Whatever gave you that idea?

There are numerous smoking guns in there already (the Ansar al Sharia email from 9/12, the "not/NOT escalation" documents from 9/14, to cite two)

The Rhodes memo was a bombshell, particularly in light of the fact that it showed the admin lied.

By the way, does JREF still do the $1 million prize? All these folks confidently predicting that the Investigation that has not even been completed will show nothing sure should be eligible.

International "Skeptics" Forum, indeed......
 
Most everyone? Come on....

Yes, most everyone. Do you really believe there is widespread support for these continued investigations? Of course there isn't.

I didn't say that the bar was "we have more documents" I said that "the bar" was clear proof that State and the Administration wrongfully withheld evidence despite their representations that they cooperated.

You have no such clear proof. 'We got more documents, therefore they didn't cooperate' simply isn't true, and it leaves us right back at the bar you claim you didn't set, 'we got more documents'.

That was why the Select Committee was created.

That's the pretense.

Of course they showed wrongdoing, they showed that the Administration lied about cooperating and turning over evidence (plus it showed that the obviously false talking points came from Ben Rhodes and not the intelligence services)

That's not a interpretation of the evidence that's been well supported. Besides that, it's the same tactic that failed against President Clinton. You have no evidence of actual wrongdoing, so go after them for a cover up or 'not cooperating'.

If the only evidence of 'wrongdoing' is where the talking points came from, that's weaksauce. It is a non-issue and isn't the kind of 'wrongdoing' investigations like this are supposed to be looking into. The only possible use of uncovering such isn't national security or accountability, but political attacks. 'The person that was originally wrong about this easily mistaken point turns out to be a different person than was thought was originally wrong.' That's it? That's the big find?

You think that the target of an investigations claim that they don't trust the "integrity" of the investigation is a plausible basis to justify non-cooperation?????

That is ridiculous and fortunately no one has actually used that as an excuse.

I don't believe partisan witch hunts like this one should be cooperated with, and wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to waste time and resources on it. I didn't say 'an investigation'. I mean this investigation. The prospects for this investigation to turn up any actual wrongdoing are still slim to none, and it is irresponsible to continue them. It isn't ridiculous to believe that. Ridiculous is that the budget for this.
 
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