Continuation Part 15: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Samson]

In my world people get arrested for misdemeanours of this type all the time.

There is a subset of ISF members, and one of them will soon send all this to Abandon All Hope. It seems this cartwheel thread is on lifetime parole.

 

[Grinder]

Numbers'

Really? You know when one is close to another nicknames are just fine and I call Numbers Number at times.

 

[Dan O.]

I have always been puzzled about the storage of the clasp. On the one hand, it is difficult not to conclude that it was deliberately stored in a way that would virtually ensure its decay. On the other hand, I don't see how one might have been able to determine incompetence or malfeasance by reexamination of a hypothetically properly stored clasp. Suppose that one had swabbed it for DNA and come up empty. The previous workers could claim that they they had already extracted all of the DNA that there was. Finding even additional profiles could be handwaved away, just as the extra profiles that are already known are handwaved away in pro-guilt arguments. In other words, if it were tampered with at the time of storage, it probably was not done by someone with much knowledge of forensics.

From Stefanoni's testimony, the hooks were not swabbed but were placed in the small tube with extraction buffer and probably agitated. You can guess the subsequent process would be to suck out the extraction buffer and extract the DNA. If there is any DNA left it would be on the hooks and inside the tube. It is appropriate to save both and the tube is as good a place as any to keep the hooks. But this must be thoroughly dried before storage to prevent decomposition of the hooks and the remaining DNA. This last step Stefanoni completely botched before sealing the tube with its cap and sealing that in an evidence bag.

 

[anglolawyer]

Amanda thinks there "might have been an intruder" but doesn't even mention it to Raf until over an hour later, after breakfast?

'Raps' thanks (your card has been marked ).

You are incredulous about things that are perfectly credible. That's assuming what you say happened is actually claimed by Amanda and/or Raf. If it is so what? What had really happened was far from being the most likely thing. Even the posties didn't freak out and they knew about the tossed phones, which Amanda and Raf did not at the time we are speaking about. This is a non-point. Move on.

 

[Numbers]

I thought after you read my expert comment, with quote that rigor would have fully set in by then, you see that temp 8 hours or more after death in uncertain temperature conditions would have precluded the test making a significant difference in TOD estimate accuracy.

But whether or not rigor set in depends on several factors, including the room ambient temperature and the covering over the body, and the ambient temp depends on the whether or not there was heating. So it is indeed possible that rigor had set in.

 

[Samson]

Really? You know when one is close to another nicknames are just fine and I call Numbers Number at times.

I must admit I am now totally confused by that Casablanca line, the meaning is obscure, and I don't expect to deconstruct it tonight.

 

[Grinder]

I can come up with a bunch of evidence absent theories too. You are telling a story, a fiction, which omits an appreciation of known facts. Not even Richard Owens' reports allow for your fantasy.

No evidence of drug use, no evidence of connection to Rudi beyond 2 or three times total, no explanation for the knife being there, no need for money as she had ATM access, problem with Curatolo seeing them at the murder time and Nara hearing the scream and running later but other than that it fits perfectly with the evidence.

 

[Kauffer]

You also have to take into account the misapplication of the luminol - seems like they used too much of it, which would've further diluted the samples available for TMB testing.

There's certainly an argument that if a TMB test is negative, then the default assumption should be that no blood is present. So from a legal point of view, and in terms of the usability of the evidence, it doesn't seem unreasonable that the footprints be discounted.

But in terms of what is actually likely to have made them, Amanda stepping on the bloody bathmat that morning does seem like the most obvious explanation, doesn't it? I mean, if you knew nothing except that those prints had been found, it's the one explanation that fits with what we know. I could never figure out how Massei was able to suggest that the prints were made in diluted blood residue after someone had cleaned their feet of blood, without it being really obvious to him that stepping on the bathmat as Amanda says she did would've produced exactly the same result - almost as if he was inviting the defence to make that argument.

I don't see how we can conceive, in the apartment at least, of the manufacturing of a dilution so dilute as to escape TMB notice. Aren't we talking, even in terms favourable to a pro blood hypothesis, of half a thimble of blood per bathful of water?

As far as evidence in the case is concerned, we are asked to consider that the failure to complete the investigation into the possible presence of dilute blood in the hallway together with the suggestion of the botching of the luminol application, has created doubt, which the prosecution must be allowed to benefit from! No! It is manifestly unfair.

 

[Numbers]

I don't see how we can conceive of the manufacturing of a dilution so dilute as to escape TMB notice. Aren't we talking, even in terms favourable to a pro blood hypothesis, of half a thimble of blood per bathful of water?

As far as evidence in the case is concerned, we are asked to consider that the failure to complete the investigation into the possible presence of dilute blood in the hallway together with the suggestion of the botching of the luminol application, has created doubt, which the prosecution must be allowed to benefit from! No! It is manifestly unfair.

The prosecution never introduced any confirmatory* blood test evidence. The only possible legally relevant conclusion is that the foot prints in question were not blood.

*A confirmatory test being, for example, an antigen-antibody test, which is the kind known to definitively identify human blood. Such commercially available tests have been discussed on the thread and are well-known to forensic specialists.

 

[Grinder]

But whether or not rigor set in depends on several factors, including the room ambient temperature and the covering over the body, and the ambient temp depends on the whether or not there was heating. So it is indeed possible that rigor had set in.

He entered the room in which the dead girl was lying on the floor, almost entirely covered by a duvet, leaving visible only "a part of the head stained with blood and the left foot, which was sticking out from the lower edge of the duvet" (page 2 of the report). He did not do any tests, as he had been asked to preserve the crime scene as perfectly as possible in order to allow the scientific police to carry out their work.
110
[103] However, he did note (at around 14:40 or 15:00 pm) that the girl's foot presented "cadaveric rigidity...of the ankle and the toes" (page 6, hearing of April 3, 2009).​

rig·or mor·'tisstiffening of the body, 1-7 hours after death, from hardening of the muscular tissues as a consequence of the coagulation of the myosinogen and paramyosinogen; it disappears after 1-6 days or when decomposition begins.
Synonym(s): cadaveric rigidity, postmortem rigidity

At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two to six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass
​

ETA - rigor had set in and he did feel the body temp and could tell she had been dead for some time. The ICSI came from Rome and didn't arrive until 7 pm. Is it standard policy to send the Rome team out or did Mignini decide that would be the way to delay and therefore give him more latitude to frame the kids?

 

[Vixen]

'Raps' thanks (your card has been marked ).

You are incredulous about things that are perfectly credible. That's assuming what you say happened is actually claimed by Amanda and/or Raf. If it is so what? What had really happened was far from being the most likely thing. Even the posties didn't freak out and they knew about the tossed phones, which Amanda and Raf did not at the time we are speaking about. This is a non-point. Move on.

Why would the posties "freak out"? They are hardly the sharpest cards in the pack.

 

[Kauffer]

Why would the posties "freak out"? They are hardly the sharpest cards in the pack.

I see, so these professional police officers are not required to have shown a requisite level of suspicion after having been introduced to all of the evidence at the apartment outside Kercher's room, but 20 year old Amanda not having been immediately suspicious of murderous foul play within minutes of returning to the cottage and on considerably less evidence - she did not know about the break in - is itself suspicious? Why?

The evidence is of Amanda's growing sense of alarm - what she feels, her calls to her mother, Romanelli, Meredith and her conversation with Raffaelle. The postale police's attitude is a benchmark against which to judge the reasonableness of Amanda's behaviour and her proportionate response to each unfolding piece of information. She showed maturity.

Previously, you were celebrating the cleverness, qualifications and training of the police, though without evidence. Now, you're telling us that they were irreducibly stupid and thick.

 

[Dan O.]

My view is yes. Assuming Knox is innocent this would be normal behaviour to go back to your own flat for a shower after spending the night with your boyfriend. I think the faint luminal positive marks in the hall way may be from Knox stepping on the blood stained bathmat with damp feet, then walking down the hall. There are are other possible explanations for these marks. E.g. bleach based shower cleaner.

If you look at the chemistry involved, it is the oxygen released from the peroxide catalyzed by the iron in blood that causes TBM to change color and Luminol to glow. Most false positives either cause a similar catalytic reaction with the peroxide such as metals and certain plant materials or they supply their own oxidant such as bleach^*.

If the Luminol positive stains in the hall were caused by recent tracts of blood or cleanser, this agent would have been picked up and indicated the same positive reaction with TMB. That it was not picked up by the swab for TMB testing is a strong indication that the stains were not created recently and are instead imbedded in the tile such as an imbedded rust stain that won't scrub out.


(*) The two step TMB process will distinguish between oxidants that react immediately and catalysts that show a reaction only after applying the peroxide.

 

[Grinder]

Why would the posties "freak out"? They are hardly the sharpest cards in the pack.

Interesting metaphor.

They had the phone information added to an already odd situation including the locked door. A couple of blood drops. the broken window, the locked door and now the phones yet the PP weren't "on the case" immediately but the PGP roundly flames Amanda about not freaking out without having the phones.

These cops started the burglary was staged meme.

 

[Dan O.]

You could, from the initial contact. Try it, dab your fingers in powder or something that will show up, and then dab them on a wall, or paper extended in front of you. You'll see it matches your finger profile.

The victim would reach out a hand directly in front, presumably to stabilise themselves. A show off perp finger painting in the victim's blood, which looks like the case here, would probably extend their arm above shoulder height.
I can't tell the height from the photo, but it was clearly done by someone fully standing up, and looks left-handed to me.

Who?

I tried to write on the wall because she wanted to say something, but there wasn’t time to look for a pen and a sheet of paper.​

 

[Numbers]

He entered the room in which the dead girl was lying on the floor, almost entirely covered by a duvet, leaving visible only "a part of the head stained with blood and the left foot, which was sticking out from the lower edge of the duvet" (page 2 of the report). He did not do any tests, as he had been asked to preserve the crime scene as perfectly as possible in order to allow the scientific police to carry out their work.
110
[103] However, he did note (at around 14:40 or 15:00 pm) that the girl's foot presented "cadaveric rigidity...of the ankle and the toes" (page 6, hearing of April 3, 2009).​

rig·or mor·'tisstiffening of the body, 1-7 hours after death, from hardening of the muscular tissues as a consequence of the coagulation of the myosinogen and paramyosinogen; it disappears after 1-6 days or when decomposition begins.
Synonym(s): cadaveric rigidity, postmortem rigidity

At the time of death, a condition called "primary flaccidity" occurs. Following this, the muscles stiffen in rigor mortis. All muscles in the body are affected. Starting between two to six hours following death, rigor mortis begins with the eyelids, neck, and jaw. The sequence may be due to different lactic acid levels among different muscles, which is directly related to the difference in glycogen levels and different types of muscle fibers. Rigor mortis then spreads to the other muscles within the next four to six hours, including the internal organs. The onset of rigor mortis is affected by the individual's age, sex, physical condition, and muscular build. Rigor mortis may not be perceivable in many infant and child corpses due to their smaller muscle mass
​

ETA - rigor had set in and he did feel the body temp and could tell she had been dead for some time. The ICSI came from Rome and didn't arrive until 7 pm. Is it standard policy to send the Rome team out or did Mignini decide that would be the way to delay and therefore give him more latitude to frame the kids?

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Grinder,
Thanks for these details.

It is possible Mignini didn't start framing the kids (or whoever else he would want to frame) until Nov. 3 or 4.

When do you believe the Nov. 5/6 interrogations were planned? Do you believe, as some have suggested, that they were not planned a day or two in advance, but were set up Nov. 5 and motivated as a retaliation against Raffaele for his phone comment to his dad that the police were stupid?

 

[Bill Williams]

Interesting metaphor.

They had the phone information added to an already odd situation including the locked door. A couple of blood drops. the broken window, the locked door and now the phones yet the PP weren't "on the case" immediately but the PGP roundly flames Amanda about not freaking out without having the phones.

These cops started the burglary was staged meme.

That's not exactly right. Battistelli took a look at Filomena's room and said, "This is no burglary," which it wasn't. At that time before opening Meredith's door, Battistelli could have meant many things....

 

[Bill Williams]

I must admit I am now totally confused by that Casablanca line, the meaning is obscure, and I don't expect to deconstruct it tonight.

Rick: "Louie, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship."

 

[Grinder]

That's not exactly right. Battistelli took a look at Filomena's room and said, "This is no burglary," which it wasn't. At that time before opening Meredith's door, Battistelli could have meant many things....

I think he was saying that it was staged not that it wasn't a burglary because ultimately nothing was taken but perhaps Follain or Massei has more detail.

 

[Kauffer]

That's not exactly right. Battistelli took a look at Filomena's room and said, "This is no burglary," which it wasn't. At that time before opening Meredith's door, Battistelli could have meant many things....

It would be interesting to know what Battistelli and his pal told Profazio and Mignini about their impressions. I don't think there's much translated of the PP testimony, is there? But we do know that he told the court that he had told Raffaele he didn't think it was a real burglary attempt.