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To love your neighbour like yourself, meaning

Well, I am running for high priest -- or at least regular priest, if I don't find a new dealer -- of Athe, so obviously I can't be wrong ;)

But now seriously, while Manicheanism is indeed a good illustration of such dualism, there were a TON of dualist gnostic sects in Christianity too, which probably reflect his position a lot better. The Marcionism that Tassman mentioned is probably closer to the mark, although Gaetan seems to be a bit more extreme than Marcion was ever supposed to be. I mean, Marcion was after all a disciple of Paul, and Paul never went to such extremes as to flat out consider Judaism a work of Satan.

But yeah, you can find all sorts of extremes of dualism in gnostic Xianity. E.g., going all the way to, for example, the Cainites, which would read like a joke sect by some modern Vampire The Masquerade players reciting from the Book Of Nod, if it weren't actually an ancient sect and described by Irenaeus.

Are you offering absolution for all sins public and private?
 
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....
And also, to expect to be as loving and forgiving as Jesus would be arrogant, to say the least. It's an aspriation, a goal, an expectation, but also an area as in so many others where Christians fall short. That failing doesn't make the goal invalid (from a Christian point of view).


Have you even looked at this post or this one or this one?

With loving like Jesus' who needs a devil!
 
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Well, I never said that Paul was a swell guy. You may have noticed in some of my other threads that I do not particularly hold a high opinion of him, to say the least. But here I'm saying just that, on the narrower subject of the OT God vs Jesus, while a case could be made that Paul's position was quite plausibly non-trinitarian and maybe gnostic, he doesn't go as far as to make the OT God be outright the evil guy.

Gotcha. Sorry I was caught up on the extremism portion of the post. Forgive me though, I have not read many of your posts on Paul.
 
I wonder if you realize that he simply could not have, at least as described in the "book" of Acts...

http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/maccoby2.htm

That was a nice read Slowvehicle, Thank you. I have been recently reading about the Essenes, Saducees, and Pharisees so this helped to "get to know them better" if only slightly.

I fear though, once again lol, we have derailed this thread. But I suppose your point is that even though Paul has been portrayed as a murderer (or at least sending people to their deaths) he was tolerant and accepting. Which would mean he loved his neighbors even if they weren't Jewish. So we are still slightly on topic ;)
 
That was a nice read Slowvehicle, Thank you. I have been recently reading about the Essenes, Saducees, and Pharisees so this helped to "get to know them better" if only slightly.

I fear though, once again lol, we have derailed this thread. But I suppose your point is that even though Paul has been portrayed as a murderer (or at least sending people to their deaths) he was tolerant and accepting. Which would mean he loved his neighbors even if they weren't Jewish. So we are still slightly on topic ;)

Don't be silly.

My "point" is that the legends of Tarsi, and of the things Jesus is said to have been said to have said and done, are not factual accounts of anything.
 
Don't be silly.

My "point" is that the legends of Tarsi, and of the things Jesus is said to have been said to have said and done, are not factual accounts of anything.

True. I have tried, but with little success, to find where in the Bible he specifically claims to actually even be Jesus Christ. I did find once where he asks the disciples "Who do they say I am?" (or something kinda close to that) to which he is given several remarks and Peter states that he (Peter) has been telling people that he is "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" which he (JC) then sorta scolds him and says not to do that. Then I only seem to find that when questioned by the Sanhedrin he states "I am that I am" which is also meant to be "I am what you say I am" which is sorta like what Eminem sings about, "I am whatever you say I am". He also just claims to be "Both" when asked if he is a man or God. Just...odd
 
...
I find it, again, curious that you read litterally when time and again misinterpretation and symbolism/allegory/parables is what writers believers have used for a very long time to preserve their work faith. Satire has been equally used, or to agree with something but to the point that it is obvious you are taking a PISS.


There .... a slight correction to your post just to make it more accurate.

There is a difference between reading something the way it is written and recognizing the metaphor that the WRITER PUT THERE and reading something and INSERTING one's own metaphor in there.

Any messy or embarrassingly stupid or vile or heinous bits in their scriptures become open to interpretation as metaphors to god knows what, and allegories to no one knows what, except of course the shyster who is claiming allegories and metaphors since he, as a theist who spoke to god in one of his sessions with god obviously knows how to interpret those metaphors and allegories and mistranslated bits that ought to be taken in the paleo-sociological and paleo-geographical and paleo-anthropological and paleo-theological context which he of course knows how to do better than any mere atheist could ever do.

Example: Metatron is the ancient Judean angel meaning "youth" or "servant" which I feel the latter has turned into "slave". Oral tradition predates written tradition, therefore we can assume that a nasty game of telephone has occurred long before anything was really written down.

I am not advocating slaves, mind you, just expressing my feelings on misinterpretation


If you are sure the Bible is a load of hogwash then all this claptrap about how to interpret it is as immaterial or material as interpreting the 1001 Arabian nights... no?

But the bible is believed by over 5 billion people to be the word of god.

That is precisely why the Bible has caused DISCORD and HAVOC for millennia... because every twit can interpret it his way and justify execrating and extirpating other morons who are interpreting it differently but equally as arbitrarily.

Which goes to prove that either the book has been written by the devil or that it is just another book no different than the Iliad say, but that the people who believe it is the word of god are just stupid.

If god had anything to do with the bible - whether authoring it directly or inspiring it to the writers who just jotted down what he was inspiring them with or even general inspirational outlines after which he left the writers to fill in the blanks - s/he/it should have at the very least ensured its correctness and comprehensibility if not also its continued validity along the ages.

If there is any divine spark in the Bible then either this divinity is the most incompetent fool or the most heinous devil.

And all this talk about metaphor and mistranslation and interpolation or missing bits or scribal slips should not pass muster with anyone who is not trying to alleviate a most severe cognitive dissonance.

If an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent being is involved in giving humanity a book that is supposed to convey his wishes and commandments and moral edicts as the path to ETERNAL SALVATION then the book should be utterly and totally comprehensible to anyone who reads it even if the pages were in fact BLANK PAGES let alone in the right language or correctly transcribed.

Even if the pages were EMPTY this divine book should convey the correct message to its onlookers.

And the message conveyed should be RELEVANT to the reader's culture and epoch as well as current knowledge of reality.

And any metaphors or allegories should be interpretable in the correct way regardless of what they say or how they are read or who is reading them.

Even if some scribe slipped or mistranslated or deliberately forged it, the MIRACULOUS words should be self-correcting.... in fact there should not be a need for words in the first place.... the DIVINE book should miraculously show the words in the correct language and so forth to its reader.

Of course that is assuming that the Divinity is in fact omnipotent and omniscient but above all omnibenevolent.

If a divinity wanted to cause strife and mayhem and schisms and atrocities between humans throughout the ages I doubt he could have done any better than the Bible/Quran.

Now have a look at this post.
 
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True. I have tried, but with little success, to find where in the Bible he specifically claims to actually even be Jesus Christ. I did find once where he asks the disciples "Who do they say I am?" (or something kinda close to that) to which he is given several remarks and Peter states that he (Peter) has been telling people that he is "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" which he (JC) then sorta scolds him and says not to do that. Then I only seem to find that when questioned by the Sanhedrin he states "I am that I am" which is also meant to be "I am what you say I am" which is sorta like what Eminem sings about, "I am whatever you say I am". He also just claims to be "Both" when asked if he is a man or God. Just...odd
He explicitly makes the claim in Luke 23.
1 Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be Messiah, a king.” 3 So Pilate asked Jesus, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “You have said so,” Jesus replied.
Jesus' reply is generally, and certainly correctly, taken to be an affirmative. For the original Greek, see http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/23-2.htm. It has to be stressed that "Christ" here is a non-supernatural term, of political rather than metaphysical significance, as the passage shows.

John, as is his normal practice, adds a supernatural dimension in his version of the event.
18:36 Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” 37 “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”
 
There .... a slight correction to your post just to make it more accurate.

There is a difference between reading something the way it is written and recognizing the metaphor that the WRITER PUT THERE and reading something and INSERTING one's own metaphor in there.

Any messy or embarrassingly stupid or vile or heinous bits in their scriptures become open to interpretation metaphors to god knows what, and allegories to no one knows what, except of course the one who is claiming allegories and metaphors since he, as a theist who spoke to god in one of his sessions with god obviously knows how to interpret those metaphors and allegories and mistranslated bits that ought to be taken in the paleo-sociological and paleo-geographical and paleo-anthropological and paleo-theological context which he of course knows how to do better than any mere atheist could ever do.




If you are sure the Bible is a load of hogwash then all this claptrap about how to interpret it is as immaterial or material as interpreting the 1001 Arabian nights... no?

But the bible is believed by over 5 billion people to be the word of god.

That is precisely why the Bible has caused DISCORD and HAVOC for millennia... because every moron can interpret it his way and justify execrating and extirpating other morons who are interpreting it differently but equally as arbitrarily.

Which goes to prove that either the book has been written by the devil or that it is just another book no different than the Iliad say, but that the people who believe it is the word of god are just stupid.

If god had anything to do with the bible - whether authoring it directly or inspiring it to the writers who just jotted down what he was inspiring them with or even general inspirational outlines after which he left the writers to fill in the blanks - s/he/it should have at the very least ensured its correctness and comprehensibility if not also its continued validity along the ages.

If there is any divine spark in the Bible then either this divinity is the most incompetent fool or the most heinous devil.

And all this talk about metaphor and mistranslation and interpolation or missing bits or scribal slips should not pass muster with anyone who is not trying to alleviate a most severe cognitive dissonance.

If an omnipotent omniscient omnibenevolent being is involved in giving humanity a book that is supposed to convey his wishes and commandments and moral edicts as the path to ETERNAL SALVATION then the book should be utterly and totally comprehensible to anyone who reads it even if the pages were in fact BLANK PAGES let alone in the right language or correctly transcribed.

Even if the pages were EMPTY this divine book should convey the correct message to its onlookers.

And the message conveyed should be RELEVANT to the reader's culture and epoch as well as current knowledge of reality.

And any metaphors or allegories should be interpretable in the correct way regardless of what they say or how they are read or who is reading them.

Even if some scribe slipped or mistranslated or deliberately forged it, the MIRACULOUS words should be self-correcting.... in fact there should not be a need for words in the first place.... the DIVINE book should miraculously show the words in the correct language and so forth to its reader.

Of course that is assuming that the Divinity is in fact omnipotent and omniscient but above all omnibenevolent.

If a divinity wanted to cause strife and mayhem and schisms and atrocities between humans throughout the ages I doubt he could have done any better than the Bible/Quran.

Now have a look at this post.

hmm, I see you lean again to the faith issue while I do not. Naturally your points are valid under the presumption that "God" wrote the Bible (I take this book because it is what I know the most about, mind you, but that is not say I know a lot) while most sources I have read or listen to states it is "inspired" by God. So yeah it was wrote by man/men/woman/women (once they were allowed to read and write that is). Also it is silly to believe that (and I shift now to include ancient Roman Gods and/or Norse mythology and/or Egyptian mythology and/or Ancient Sumerian mythology) Gods and the like (to also include angels) were not "inspired" by actual living people. Every story that has ever been told/written/read/seen has at least SOME basis in reality, that is my point. The hype and the supernatural is the telephone game which blows it so far out of proportion you end up with these "believers" who refuse to say "I don't know, but let's find out" and chose instead to say "Goddidit" or "Thordidit".

Also I do not believe in apologetics but my point with bringing up "Metatron" is passages like "If thou buy an Hebrew servant" a "youth" makes slightly more sense especially when compared to how (even in modern culture I think) marriages were arranged and paid for by various methods it makes just a little more sense. I do not personally believe this to be a "correct" way of life for me but I understand it and it does work for some people and I have given this point a great deal of thought due to apologetics and a show I watch (Atheist Experience) and I stumbled upon this and gave it some thought.

If something like that can be determined (and scholars have pointed out misinterpretation and mistranslation for years) it does change somethings but still doesn't quite change some of the immoral things that ARE in the Bible (and other texts), it just means that we aren't done yet.
 
He explicitly makes the claim in Luke 23. Jesus' reply is generally, and certainly correctly, taken to be an affirmative. For the original Greek, see http://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/23-2.htm. It has to be stressed that "Christ" here is a non-supernatural term, of political rather than metaphysical significance, as the passage shows.

John, as is his normal practice, adds a supernatural dimension in his version of the event.

I am confused, are you agreeing with me, supporting me with quotes, or saying I am wrong? I understand these folks wrote it different but the sources you site do not support JC explicitly saying he is anything outside of what he is accused of with the simple "You say I am, so sure dude" and also playing mind games with some people.
 
I am confused, are you agreeing with me, supporting me with quotes, or saying I am wrong? I understand these folks wrote it different but the sources you site do not support JC explicitly saying he is anything outside of what he is accused of with the simple "You say I am, so sure dude" and also playing mind games with some people.
I'm saying that when Jesus was accused of being a political messiah in Luke he says in effect yes. In John he diverts the accusation into a supernatural realm and says yes to that. I think we can say he is made to admit to being a "christ" but the significance of the term evolves from earlier to later gospel accounts. Whether you agree with that, I'm not sure. It's not at all straightforward.
 
True. I have tried, but with little success, to find where in the Bible he specifically claims to actually even be Jesus Christ. I did find once where he asks the disciples "Who do they say I am?" (or something kinda close to that) to which he is given several remarks and Peter states that he (Peter) has been telling people that he is "Jesus Christ" or "The Christ" which he (JC) then sorta scolds him and says not to do that. Then I only seem to find that when questioned by the Sanhedrin he states "I am that I am" which is also meant to be "I am what you say I am" which is sorta like what Eminem sings about, "I am whatever you say I am". He also just claims to be "Both" when asked if he is a man or God. Just...odd


I suggest you read the verses CAREFULLY and you will see that he rewards Peter for saying that he is Jesus the Christ... not scold him.... and he agrees with him and tells him that it is God his father who must have revealed this information to Peter. In other words Jesus fully CLAIMS to be the Son of God and the Christ.

Here are the verses with commentary from me

Matthew 16:13-20
  • 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    He asks the disciples to report to him who people think he is.
  • 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    The disciples report what people say he is.​
  • 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    He then asks them to say who THEY think he is.​
  • 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Peter says very clearly that he is the CHRIST the SON OF GOD.​
  • 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    Jesus is so pleased with this response that he BLESSES Peter and tells him this information he possesses is a DIVINELY INSPIRED REVELATION which Peter has received.​
  • 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    He then rewards him with becoming the foundation stone for his church.​
  • 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    And Peter now becomes the FIRST POPE through whom people will go to heaven because he has the keys to it... i.e. Peter is the gate keeper to heaven.​
  • 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
    He now tells his disciples to not reveal the fact that he is JESUS THE CHRIST. He is not scolding them for saying so... he just BLESSED Peter for saying the DIVINELY REVEALED fact but he just does not want people to know it just yet... i.e. he tells the disciples to keep it a secret.... not that he denies it.​
 
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I suggest you read the verses CAREFULLY and you will see that he rewards Peter for saying that he is Jesus the Christ... not scold him.... and he agrees with him and tells him that it is God his father who must have revealed this information to Peter. In other words Jesus fully CLAIMS to be the Son of God and the Christ.

Here are the verses with commentary from me

Matthew 16:13-20
  • 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
    He asks the disciples to report to him who people think he is.
  • 16:14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
    The disciples report what people say he is.​
  • 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    He then asks them to say who THEY think he is.​
  • 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Peter says very clearly that he is the CHRIST the SON OF GOD.​
  • 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    Jesus is so pleased with this response that he BLESSES Peter and tells him this information he possesses is a DIVINELY INSPIRED REVELATION which Peter has received.​
  • 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
    He then rewards him with becoming the foundation stone for his church.​
  • 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    And Peter now becomes the FIRST POPE through whom people will go to heaven because he has the keys to it... i.e. Peter is the gate keeper to heaven.​
  • 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
    He now tells his disciples to not reveal the fact that he is JESUS THE CHRIST. He is not scolding them for saying so... he just BLESSED Peter for saying the DIVINELY REVEALED fact but he just does not want people to know it just yet... i.e. he tells the disciples to keep it a secret.... not that he denies it.​

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/9.html

Verses 19-21 makes no mention of exalting Peter and he immediately commands to never say such things.
 
True. I have tried, but with little success, to find where in the Bible he specifically claims to actually even be Jesus Christ. ...


Have a look at these verses

John 4:25-26
4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.​
 
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/lk/9.html

Verses 19-21 makes no mention of exalting Peter and he immediately commands to never say such things.


May I remind you of what you said

.... I have tried, but with little success, to find where in the Bible he specifically claims to actually even be Jesus Christ....


I have just given you EXACTLY what you have tried and failed to find right there in Matthew 16:13-20.

Now what other places say or do not say is IMMATERIAL.

You said you want to find a place where Jesus claimed to be the Christ.

I gave you one place in Matthew and then another in John 4:25-26 (see this post) where Jesus claims to be the Messiah called the Christ.
 
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Have a look at these verses

John 4:25-26
4:25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
4:26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.​

I concede this was a good little trick he pulled on her (read the whole chapter) calling her bluff that she "had no husband" but he (JC) knew of five that she had. She then says there are messias (plural?) And JC says he is "he" singular. One wonders what kind of a woman would have "five husbands" though, at least I do. Besides he just wanted a cup of water in that scene really.
 

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