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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Here is an English translation of the arrest warrant. Note that it makes no mention of the break-in, and certainly not as "staged". Almost all the information in the explanation, which is the detailed and documented "reasonable suspicion", comes from the interrogations of Nov. 5/6, 2007.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-case-transcripts/
Decree for arrest. Nov. 06, 2007.

Power of Attorney of the Republic
in the jurisdiction of the Court of Perugia

Declaration of Arrest issued by the Prosecutor
To the judge of the preliminary investigations of the Court of Perugia

The Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini sustains

Given the following procedural documents;

Seeing as there are serious clues of the crime of conspiracy in murder aggravated by sexual assault for which he proceeds against DIYA Lumumba, born in Kindu (Zaire) on 5 May 1969, KNOX Amanda Marie and SOLLECITO Raffaele, in generalized terms, for the following reasons:

For that which concerns KNOX and DIYA, the former gave conspicuously contradictory and improbable deposition in the course of the investigation. In particular, KNOX affirmed to have spent the night between the 1st and 2nd of November in the company of SOLLECITO Raffaele, met by her only a few days before the fact, while he, after initially confirming KNOX's declarations, confessed to have lied according to KNOX's direction and clarified as having separated from KNOX at 9:30PM on the 1st of November 2007, remaining in his residence where he received a call on his land-line from his father at 11:30PM. Furthermore, by the data relative to the cell phone traffic of the number 3484673590, in use by KNOX, emerges a void of traffic from 8:35PM of the 1st of November to 12:00PM of the 2nd of November. There is an analogous void of cell phone traffic from 8:42PM of November 1st to 6:02AM of November 2nd found in the traffic for the number 3403574303 in use by SOLLECITO Raffaele. A text message was found to have been sent at 8:35PM of November 1st by KNOX's number 3484673590 to 3387195723, that of her co-defendant Patrick, in which she wrote "Ci vediamo dopo" ["See you later" or lit: "We'll see each other after"] thus confirming that in the following hours KNOX would find herself with Patrick in the apartment where the victim was.

KNOX, in the deposition of this date, finally confessed to the criminal action perpetrated against Kercher; the defendant, in fact, testified as having met with Patrick, as was communicated in the message found in the memory of her cell phone operating in Perugia, the message of 8:35PM, responding to a message from DIYA arrived at 8:18PM, identified thanks to the analysis of the cell phone traffic relative to the number in use by KNOX.

This last message was not present in the memory of the cell phone.

The same KNOX, in the deposition of this date, then confessed that, having met with Diya at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana, she went with DIYA to Meredith's residence where Diya, after having sexual relations with the victim, killed her.

The sexual intercourse must be considered of a violent nature, considering the particularly intimidating context in which it occurred, of which KNOX must be considered to have contributed.

Furthermore, it must be added that KNOX, in the spontaneous depositions given on this same day, punctually confirmed to have contacted DIYA, to have met with him the night between the 1st and 2nd of November and to gone with him to the apartment of the victim. She then said to have stayed outside the bedroom of the victim while DIYA went inside with her and she added to have heard the scream of the young woman.

KNOX testified to particularities that confirmed hers and SOLLECITO Raffaele's involvement in the event, like the fact that she awoke after the fact in the latter's bed.

Regarding the elements against SOLLECITO, there are numerous incongruities verified in his first declarations in respect to his latest and the fact that, from preliminary observations, the shoe print of the shoe worn by SOLLECITO appears compatible in form with that found at the scene of the crime. Furthermore, the fact that KNOX declares to not remember what happened between the scream of the victim and her reawakening in the morning in Sollecito's bed who, furthermore, was found to have in his possession a pocket knife that could in the abstract be compatible, in type and dimensions (full length 18cm, of which 8.5cm being the blade), with the object that produced the most severe wound in the neck of the victim.

Having regarded all of the elements described and all of them convergent as a result of an intense and articulated investigation activated upon the discovery of Kercher's cadaver and culminating in the confession and the accusation of complicity of DIYA, called "Patrick" by KNOX, the serious clues of the crime must be considered fully valid and consenting the arrest, in consideration of the limits of the law.

The risk of DIYA's escape must be considered valid, seeing as he is foreign, and considering the particular gravity and cruelty of the crime, that of sexual violence, and the possibility of the imposition of particularly brutal punishment.
Regarding KNOX, she demonstrated a particular unscrupulousness in repeatedly lying to the investigators and in involving in such a grave matter the youth SOLLECITO.

ORDERS

The arrests of DIYA Lumumba, KNOX Amanda Marie and SOLLECITO Raffaele in generalized terms and their conduction to the Casa Circondariale [prison].
One proceeds with the request for the confirmation of the arrests in a separate action.
One sends to the Secretary to the extent applicable concerning the registration of Diya Lumumba and Knox Amanda Marie, born in Washington (USA) on 9 July 1987, residing in Perugia, Via della Pergola #7, as well as Sollecito Raffaele, he also in generalized terms.
Perugia, the 6th of November 2007, 8:40AM,

PROSECUTOR Dr. Giuliano Mignini
 
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Another issue I have is the extraordinary risk he took by hanging around downstairs after committing a brutal murder, likely his first. You would think he would get the hell out of there. OTOH, (1) none of us is a brutal murderer so what do we know (2) he did hang around upstairs washing himself and sitting down to go through her stuff and (3) if the evidence shows someone entered downstairs then that's what happened.

But perhaps the cat did jump.

After it had been chewing on Giacomo Silenzi's plants.
 
Another issue I have is the extraordinary risk he took by hanging around downstairs after committing a brutal murder, likely his first. You would think he would get the hell out of there. OTOH, (1) none of us is a brutal murderer so what do we know (2) he did hang around upstairs washing himself and sitting down to go through her stuff and (3) if the evidence shows someone entered downstairs then that's what happened.

We've seen enough true crime shows to know there is no exact predictions how Rudy would act upon his possible first murder/rape. It wasnt his first burglary obviously. The fact of him pulling a knife on the Bartender does show Rudys weapon of choice.

Why would Rudy add the details of listening to songs on the toilet?

One article I read suggested when the details and truth dont effect the outcome, the perp will often give more details.

Extraordinary risk? maybe more of a way to get money without working, the murder a sloppy ignorant action of a loser named Rudy Guede. Maybe more his stupidity than extraordinary...
 
We've seen enough true crime shows to know there is no exact predictions how Rudy would act upon his possible first murder/rape. It wasnt his first burglary obviously. The fact of him pulling a knife on the Bartender does show Rudys weapon of choice.

Why would Rudy add the details of listening to songs on the toilet?

One article I read suggested when the details and truth dont effect the outcome, the perp will often give more details.

Extraordinary risk? maybe more of a way to get money without working, the murder a sloppy ignorant action of a loser named Rudy Guede. Maybe more his stupidity than extraordinary...
Informal poll requested among(st) those present as to the truth value.
Grinder? ;)
 
Some of the blood could have been from Meredith. It may have been diluted with water. Blood on the knife would probably be a mix of Guede's and Meredith's. How quickly would it clot? Guede's wounded fingers could keep bleeding for some time, while in comparison Meredith's blood, isolated from her body, would tend to clot more quickly with no fresh blood supply.


Clotting is a function of blood platelets interacting with damaged blood vessel walls. The process needs both the body and a fresh blood supply.
 
What is the relevance of these images? Whose camera are they from, and when taken?


That is just an example since i don't know exactly what camera model Amanda had. Click on each of the images and it says who, when and where. And near the bottom there is a link to "show EXIF data" that will show all of the metadata that the camera tags the photo with including in some cases the camera's unique serial number. If Amanda has records or old photos that identify the serial number of her camera, she could use a similar search to look for new photos taken by her camera which might lead to the recovery of her camera.

One of the photos in the example was the square November IV durring the Chocolate Festival in October 2007.
 
Another issue I have is the extraordinary risk he took by hanging around downstairs after committing a brutal murder, likely his first. You would think he would get the hell out of there. OTOH, (1) none of us is a brutal murderer so what do we know (2) he did hang around upstairs washing himself and sitting down to go through her stuff and (3) if the evidence shows someone entered downstairs then that's what happened.


You are jumping to several conclusions here with no supporting evidence. (1) you don't know all of us. (2) the washing upstairs was necessary and quick and sitting on the bed would have left a transfer stain where the wet pants touched the bed. (3) the evidence doesn't show an entry.
 
Clotting is highly complicated...

Clotting is a function of blood platelets interacting with damaged blood vessel walls. The process needs both the body and a fresh blood supply.

Clotting is highly complicated and there are two pathways (extrinsic and intrinsic) in mammals. Clotting occurs in blood which has been removed from the body and it does not require a supply of fresh blood. It occurs normally with high efficiency in blood which is in contact with damaged endothelium.

Platelets (aka thrombocytes) are present in blood at a concentration of 150,000 to 400,000 per microL; mean values and ranges may differ among population groups and by gender. They are tiny non-nucleated cells and remain in blood which has exited the body. The protein fibrin is important as well; it forms a mesh when activated.

Blood does clot when removed from the body, and the clotting time is a medically significant measurement. Blood clotting is enhanced by contact of the blood with surfaces; not all surfaces are equal in terms of the activation. Damaged endothelium is highly activating, but other surfaces including metals, glass, plastics (polymers), and fabrics activate clotting of blood taken from the body.

Medical blood draws rely on chemical additives (such as EDTA) and sometimes treated surfaces to prevent or delay clotting. The EDTA binds calcium ions, reducing their availability for the clotting process, where they are critical cofactors at a number of steps.

1. Coagulation (also known as clotting) is the process by which blood changes from a liquid to a gel. It potentially results in hemostasis, the cessation of blood loss from a damaged vessel, followed by repair. The mechanism of coagulation involves activation, adhesion, and aggregation of platelets along with deposition and maturation of fibrin.

2. Clotting time: the time required for blood to form a clot, tested by collecting 4 mL of blood in a glass tube and examining it for clot formation. The first appearance of a clot is noted and timed. The normal coagulation time in glass tubes is 5 to 15 minutes. This simple test has been used to diagnose hemophilia, but it does not detect mild coagulation disorders. Its chief application is in monitoring anticoagulant therapy. It is rarely used in clinical practice. Also called coagulation time. Compare bleeding time.

Sources:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coagulation
2. http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/clotting+time
 
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Another issue I have is the extraordinary risk he took by hanging around downstairs after committing a brutal murder, likely his first. You would think he would get the hell out of there. OTOH, (1) none of us is a brutal murderer so what do we know (2) he did hang around upstairs washing himself and sitting down to go through her stuff and (3) if the evidence shows someone entered downstairs then that's what happened.

You are jumping to several conclusions here with no supporting evidence. (1) you don't know all of us. (2) the washing upstairs was necessary and quick and sitting on the bed would have left a transfer stain where the wet pants touched the bed. (3) the evidence doesn't show an entry.

Regarding (3), the evidence strongly suggests the presence of someone who was bleeding and/or had another person's blood (perhaps diluted or not fully dry or clotted) on some objects such as perhaps clothing or a knife handle. This suggested presence implies, under the circumstances of the murder, that this person may have been the murderer, who entered the downstairs flat. Their is no direct evidence, AFAIK, of an entry, which may imply use of a key.

IMO, the quantity of blood detected in the downstairs flat, the shape of some of the blood stains (for example, one was a roughly rectangular shape similar to part of a knife handle), the apparent presence of human DNA in the blood based on successful PCR for some stains, and the places within the flat where the stains were detected (such as the light switch), all suggest a human presence connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher.
 
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Regarding (3), the evidence strongly suggests the presence of someone who was bleeding and/or had another person's blood (perhaps diluted or not fully dry or clotted) on some objects such as perhaps clothing or a knife handle. This suggested presence implies, under the circumstances of the murder, that this person may have been the murderer, who entered the downstairs flat. Their is no direct evidence, AFAIK, of an entry, which may imply use of a key.

IMO, the quantity of blood detected in the downstairs flat, the shape of some of the blood stains (for example, one was a roughly rectangular shape similar to part of a knife handle), the apparent presence of human DNA in the blood based on successful PCR for some stains, and the places within the flat where the stains were detected (such as the light switch), all suggest a human presence connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher.

Plus, Mignini in his latest clip from Nov 2014 (?), said that a baby could understand the blood downstairs was from a cat. Since Mignini is reliably a terribly bad liar, we may further conclude that Rudy broke in downstairs, using a key (were Silenzi's keys ever found that he had given to Meredith?), and Rudy stole the art ticket stub to impress people with the fact that he liked art.

Also btw, many of those red circles (blood drops on the ground supposedly) we had looked at way up thread, were I believe police red markers circling the blood drops downstairs and outside, not the actual blood drops themselves.

Does Raf/Gumbel have a court date tomorrow?
 
Does Raf/Gumbel have a court date tomorrow?

This is where having Machiavelli swallow his pride and keep posting here would be useful.

In most N.A. jurisdictions, scheduled court appearances are on-line. Here we have the Internet, there we mostly rely on Machiavelli.

I'd make a prediction on the probability of an appearance on court by Mignini, but CJ72 would be all over me like a cheap suit.
 
Regarding (3), the evidence strongly suggests the presence of someone who was bleeding and/or had another person's blood (perhaps diluted or not fully dry or clotted) on some objects such as perhaps clothing or a knife handle. This suggested presence implies, under the circumstances of the murder, that this person may have been the murderer, who entered the downstairs flat. Their is no direct evidence, AFAIK, of an entry, which may imply use of a key.

IMO, the quantity of blood detected in the downstairs flat, the shape of some of the blood stains (for example, one was a roughly rectangular shape similar to part of a knife handle), the apparent presence of human DNA in the blood based on successful PCR for some stains, and the places within the flat where the stains were detected (such as the light switch), all suggest a human presence connected to the murder of Meredith Kercher.


Suggesting that there was human presence in a residence occupied by humans :eek: Suggesting that Rudy dropped his still bloody knife on the downstairs bed instead of dropping it in the sink in the bathroom where he would go first if his intent was to clean up. Suggesting that it is Meredith's blood on the light switch instead of a more reasoned supposition that it is the cat's blood transferred there by Meredith who is known to have been in the flat that day and who was tasked with tending to the cat's injured ear. And further suggesting that Rudy lied about his appearance when he left the cottage when that statement was justifying why witnesses might have spotted Rudy with the sweatshirt tied around his waist. And if Rudy had cleaned up in the boys apartment and borrowed a pair of real jeans to walk home, why did he have to wear his pajama paints out dancing that night? Why do you try so hard to force a conspiracy of Rudy going down stairs and everybody else covering it up?

The trail of the blood drops from the outside going in through the bathroom window leaves no doubt that the drips of blood are from the cat. The blood on the duvet and bed downstairs could also be from the cat. The duvet was moved after it had been bloodied and this could have been done by Meredith or by the police who were clearly moving things such as the curtain before the cameras came in.
 
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Here is an English translation of the arrest warrant. Note that it makes no mention of the break-in, and certainly not as "staged". Almost all the information in the explanation, which is the detailed and documented "reasonable suspicion", comes from the interrogations of Nov. 5/6, 2007.

Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/amanda-knox-case-transcripts/
Decree for arrest. Nov. 06, 2007.

Forget a timeline of the crime.

I bet one could put together a convincing rationale of how this investigation prosecution went wrong, by putting the following on to a timeline.....

What did Mignini know, and when did he know it?

For instance - when did "the staging" as a meme actually enter the legal part of this?
 
Another issue I have is the extraordinary risk he took by hanging around downstairs after committing a brutal murder, likely his first. You would think he would get the hell out of there. OTOH, (1) none of us is a brutal murderer so what do we know (2) he did hang around upstairs washing himself and sitting down to go through her stuff and (3) if the evidence shows someone entered downstairs then that's what happened.

This isn't as strange as you might think. In fact this is almost typical of serial killers. It is a sort of perverse adrenaline fix for that kind of killer. I've mentioned this before, according to some of the literature, the single most common previous crimes for serial killers is not rape, but burglary. That this kind of crime is more about invasion and possessing someone else's lives than it is about sex. Hanging around, soaking it in, experiencing their power.
 
Informal poll requested among(st) those present as to the truth value.
Grinder? ;)

CT own story was that he fought with the guy who pulled a jackknife in making his escape. He claimed he spotted him at a club where he knew the bouncer and had him banned. IIRC the club was one Rudi went to on Halloween. CT also didn't file the report because the line was too long.

So he identifies a guy that threatened him after breaking into his place and stealing credit cards and 5 Euro but the doesn't bother to report that but when he sees Rudi in the media he comes forward and says he thinks it may be the same guy.

Rudi didn't bring a knife to the nursery the only B&E known for sure, besides the cottage.
 
were Silenzi's keys ever found that he had given to Meredith?


Yes, those two keys on a ring were found by the police on November 6 behind the door of the key rack in the entry hall of the upstairs apartment. The finding was reported in the press on or about November 14. Now to continue the belief that Rudy went downstairs we have to believe that this was a further coverup and conspiracy by the police or that Rudy locked the downstairs door and went back to the upstairs apartment to place the keys in that rack and then he still failed to lock the upstairs door and didn't notice that there was a phone on the wall right there next to the key rack.
 
Suggesting that there was human presence in a residence occupied by humans :eek: Suggesting that Rudy dropped his still bloody knife on the downstairs bed instead of dropping it in the sink in the bathroom where he would go first if his intent was to clean up. Suggesting that it is Meredith's blood on the light switch instead of a more reasoned supposition that it is the cat's blood transferred there by Meredith who is known to have been in the flat that day and who was tasked with tending to the cat's injured ear. And further suggesting that Rudy lied about his appearance when he left the cottage when that statement was justifying why witnesses might have spotted Rudy with the sweatshirt tied around his waist. And if Rudy had cleaned up in the boys apartment and borrowed a pair of real jeans to walk home, why did he have to wear his pajama paints out dancing that night? Why do you try so hard to force a conspiracy of Rudy going down stairs and everybody else covering it up?

The trail of the blood drops from the outside going in through the bathroom window leaves no doubt that the drips of blood are from the cat. The blood on the duvet and bed downstairs could also be from the cat. The duvet was moved after it had been bloodied and this could have been done by Meredith or by the police who were clearly moving things such as the curtain before the cameras came in.

Non-primate DNA will not replicate under PCR as commercially available reagent (enzyme) for forensic analysis is primate-specific. The blood stains either had human DNA, or the samples collected by the Italian scientific police included human DNA from the underlying surface. Lack of details, such as the identity of the DNA profiles detected by the police (Stefanoni), limits what can be stated with confidence.

Since the downstairs information was largely suppressed by the police, and the "cat blood" claims not really documented (no species specific antibody test reported) a "conspiracy" by the police should indeed be suspected, as with all the other suppressed, destroyed, or lied about information from the police and prosecution.
 
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Yes, those two keys on a ring were found by the police on November 6 behind the door of the key rack in the entry hall of the upstairs apartment. The finding was reported in the press on or about November 14. Now to continue the belief that Rudy went downstairs we have to believe that this was a further coverup and conspiracy by the police or that Rudy locked the downstairs door and went back to the upstairs apartment to place the keys in that rack and then he still failed to lock the upstairs door and didn't notice that there was a phone on the wall right there next to the key rack.

How many keys to the downstairs flat were there? Can we be certain the keys on the hook or key rack were those that Meredith had? Why were they initially claimed to have been found in Amanda's room, IIUC?
 
Suggesting that there was human presence in a residence occupied by humans.....

Human presence in a residence occupied by humans where there were a number of blood stains, some of suggestive shape (knife handle, possibly knife blade) and location (light switch, target of a jumping cat according to VAQ Giobbi of the Italian SCO police), said blood stains apparently with DNA reacting to primate-specific Polymerase Chain Reaction (unless it was DNA from underlying surface). Information conveniently suppressed by Italian police and prosecutor to simplify case and make sure that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, rather than Rudy Guede, appear to play significant roles in the murder and rape of Meredith Kercher.

Putative semen stain (PSS) on pillow found under Meredith not (yet) attributed to cat. The PSS also a suppressed bit of evidence.

Let us not indulge in thoughts that police may commit misconduct or conspire to do same. (Sarcasm)
 
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