Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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- Going back a few pages, I've tried to develop a list of arguments against authenticity. What have I missed?
- My next post will show the quotes I’m referring to.


1. Carbon Dating

2. Historical

3. Physiological
a. Posture
b. Distortions
c. Blood Flow
d. Hair
e. Front & Back
f. Arms too long
g. Top of head

4. Textile
5. Testimony

6. Artistic
a. Byzantine
b. Fading

7. Reproducibility
8. Analytic

9. Cultural
a. Customs
b. Scripture

10. Serological

Yawn, another list. How about you make fewer lists, do less organizing and instead start making with the evidence? Your attempts to "organize" this discussion are meaningless, only serving to obfuscate the fact that there is no evidence for your assertions. This is really far less complicated than you are trying to make it.
 
Dinwar,
- Can we discuss evidence for "some sort of repair," rather than "patch"? To me, there are different connotations re the terms.

As curious as I am as to the distinction, I would say "no" useless it is something that you haven't discussed fruitlessly already.
 
Dinwar,
- Can we discuss evidence for "some sort of repair," rather than "patch"? To me, there are different connotations re the terms.

Any such discussion should begin with this:

Based on Jabba's own primary research, we know that any such repair would use threads harvested from different parts of the shroud, thereby ensuring that the carbon dating was valid for the whole shroud rather than just for the sampled area. Again, this is based on the research that Jabba did on his own.

Of course, even such a carefully created repair would still be obvious to anyone who examined the shroud closely, so there's not much point in the discussion.

Ward
 
Dinwar,
- Can we discuss evidence for "some sort of repair," rather than "patch"? To me, there are different connotations re the terms.

We have already. "Repair" and "patching" are interchangeable in this discussion, at least until you present some sort of repair at doesn't present visible evidence (remember, re weaving DOES). The only way in whip itch repairs can avoid leaving visible evidence obvious to literally anyone (see the website I linked to the first time we went down this road) is to unspin the fibers of the shroud and spin new portions onto it--something we cannot do with old cloth, due to the nature of degradation of fibers over time,

There is NO evidence for a patch or repair in this area, and NO way to do it without leaving evidence. It re,aims arbitrary and thus can be dismissed without further consideration.

If you can disprove any of that, we may have the basis for a rational discussion. Otherwise, you don't.
 
Hi Jabba, I think you're flogging a dead horse here, and I wonder why, unless you have some missionary dreams of converting the non-authenticists on this site to the One True Answer to the question of the Shroud of Turin. Instead, might I suggest:

1) If you want to know more about any of the evidence discovered about the Shroud, go to Shroud.com and type in the subject (e.g 'patch') in the search box.

2) If you want to inquire about the meaning of what you have found, or why it is controversial, or want to discuss it, then go to Shroudstory.com, find the list of Categories, and add a comment to the most recent entry of that Category, or alternatively simply write your question below the most recent topic on display, whatever it is.

3) If you want to explore the actual Shroud for yourself, go to http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml, where you will be able to examine it in close-up.

4) I suggest that you only post on this site to ask a specific question, such as (choosing your current 'patch' interest) "How do you account for the radiocarbon corner containing cotton fibres, while the rest of the Shroud does not?" or "How do you account for Ray Rogers's finding vanillin on the Raes sample, but not on the rest of the Shroud?"

5) If you are going to ask about something a bit more obscure, find out about it first (see my earlier suggestions) and then make sure you give a reference so that people can check the context. Such as: "How do you account for the unusually wide spread in the radiocarbon dates which even the authors of the Nature paper admitted was "somewhat greater than would be expected from the errors quoted? (https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm)"

I hope this helps.
 
Hi Jabba, I think you're flogging a dead horse here, and I wonder why, unless you have some missionary dreams of converting the non-authenticists on this site to the One True Answer to the question of the Shroud of Turin. Instead, might I suggest:

1) If you want to know more about any of the evidence discovered about the Shroud, go to Shroud.com and type in the subject (e.g 'patch') in the search box.

2) If you want to inquire about the meaning of what you have found, or why it is controversial, or want to discuss it, then go to Shroudstory.com, find the list of Categories, and add a comment to the most recent entry of that Category, or alternatively simply write your question below the most recent topic on display, whatever it is.

3) If you want to explore the actual Shroud for yourself, go to http://www.sindonology.org/shroudScope/shroudScope.shtml, where you will be able to examine it in close-up.

4) I suggest that you only post on this site to ask a specific question, such as (choosing your current 'patch' interest) "How do you account for the radiocarbon corner containing cotton fibres, while the rest of the Shroud does not?" or "How do you account for Ray Rogers's finding vanillin on the Raes sample, but not on the rest of the Shroud?"

5) If you are going to ask about something a bit more obscure, find out about it first (see my earlier suggestions) and then make sure you give a reference so that people can check the context. Such as: "How do you account for the unusually wide spread in the radiocarbon dates which even the authors of the Nature paper admitted was "somewhat greater than would be expected from the errors quoted? (https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm)"

I hope this helps.
Hugh,
- Actually, it does. I rush around so much these days that I had never stopped to figure out how to find discussion of particular topics over there.
- Also, Dan used to quickly respond to my posts, questions and comments to him, but lately, he doesn't respond at all. I'm hoping that there's something wrong with my email, or something -- but probably, he's just given up on me...
- Your suggestions will help my communication.
 
4) I suggest that you only post on this site to ask a specific question, such as (choosing your current 'patch' interest) "How do you account for the radiocarbon corner containing cotton fibres, while the rest of the Shroud does not?" or "How do you account for Ray Rogers's finding vanillin on the Raes sample, but not on the rest of the Shroud?"

5) If you are going to ask about something a bit more obscure, find out about it first (see my earlier suggestions) and then make sure you give a reference so that people can check the context. Such as: "How do you account for the unusually wide spread in the radiocarbon dates which even the authors of the Nature paper admitted was "somewhat greater than would be expected from the errors quoted? (https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm)"

I hope this helps.

Hi Jabba. If you begin to put more concrete questions I suggest you to do it tbetter than Hugh, because his questions are biased and flawed in its very enunciation.

Some corrections, for example:

4) What evidence the sindonists have that there is more cotton in the fibbers of the radiocarbon dating area than in the body of the Shroud? Is it true that Rogers found vanilin only in the samples used by Raes? Was the test of Rogers a contrasted one? When is a method of dating sufficiently contrasted?

5)The range of measurements of the radiocarbon dating was unusual? Can it suggest an error of 1300 years?

These are more correct questions, because Hug had put some questions that imply the answer. This is not correct, Hugh, and it is of little help to Jabba who already has his own problems with himself.

PS: HUGH, your links are a little biased towards the sindonist side, is it not?
 
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hugh farey said:
"How do you account for the unusually wide spread in the radiocarbon dates which even the authors of the Nature paper admitted was "somewhat greater than would be expected from the errors quoted? (https://www.shroud.com/nature.htm)"
Greater than the range on the error bars, sure--but is it unusual for samples that are so young? Remember, we only had three samples (the individual alloquats from those samples should be combined to yield a single age--this IS a statistical matter, after all).

"How do you account for Ray Rogers's finding vanillin on the Raes sample, but not on the rest of the Shroud?"
His methods were poor, his sample had no chain of custody, etc.

"How do you account for the radiocarbon corner containing cotton fibres, while the rest of the Shroud does not?"
Prove it first, then we'll discuss how to solve the mystery.

At this point, the only thing Jabba can do to salvage some credibility is say "I was wrong." But he can't, because that would be apostasy to him.
 
At this point, the only thing Jabba can do to salvage some credibility is say "I was wrong." But he can't, because that would be apostasy to him.

That's not fair. Jabba often admits that he's wrong. Then he forgets that he did and goes back to making the same points over and over and over again.
 
Greater than the range on the error bars, sure--but is it unusual for samples that are so young? Remember, we only had three samples (the individual alloquats from those samples should be combined to yield a single age--this IS a statistical matter, after all).

His methods were poor, his sample had no chain of custody, etc.

Prove it first, then we'll discuss how to solve the mystery.

[...].

This. Ray Rogers' publication is suspect in my professional opinion. His methodology was unproven and remains so. The provenance of his samples is not reliable. Even if one were to accept his vanillin degradation hypothesis at face value, why didn't he take into account the fire that was hot enough to drip molten silver onto the SoT in 1532?
 
Hugh,
- Actually, it does. I rush around so much these days that I had never stopped to figure out how to find discussion of particular topics over there.
- Also, Dan used to quickly respond to my posts, questions and comments to him, but lately, he doesn't respond at all. I'm hoping that there's something wrong with my email, or something -- but probably, he's just given up on me...
- Your suggestions will help my communication.

Barring some evidence, and critical thinking, nothing will help your case that the CIQ is authentic.
 
HUGH, your links are a little biased towards the sindonist side, is it not?
You bet they were! I just thought of the kind of question that a convinced sindonista might try to challenge non-authenticists with, which would not simply receive the answer Yes or No. As I was thinking of the questions I was, of course, also thinking of what my replies might be if I was asked them.
 
You bet they were! I just thought of the kind of question that a convinced sindonista might try to challenge non-authenticists with, which would not simply receive the answer Yes or No. As I was thinking of the questions I was, of course, also thinking of what my replies might be if I was asked them.

Carbon14 dating is the only answer needed. For the shroud to be genuine the basic laws of the universe have to be off so it requires a miracle for it to be real.
 
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