Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

IIRC I think you are right about Coulsdon's. HE/SHE did seem genuinely concerned about the Kerchers. He/She always seem to believe in the two innocents guilt, but always insisted that she would respect the court's decision. Coulsdon always sounded a lot like a guilter yet argued that she hadn't made up her mind. She insisted on walking down the middle of the road for 7 years.

CoulsdonUK's sentiments towards the Kerchers are laudable - they were the first, and as it turns out the longest lasting victims of Italy's fumbling of this case.

 

[Kauffer]

Evidence shows they called the police after they had already arrived.

Why do that?

I kind of tried to help you a bit after your first 50 posts. It doesn't appear you took much on board, because here's another false claim.

Remember what I said about people who come here and post tired old non facts repeatedly?

I'm losing count how many times you've been called out already. Why don't you reflect on that and also evaluate your responses when you have been called out.

If you get into the habit of actual finding a citation for the claims you make, it will go some way towards halting your tendency to post erroneously.

 

[Bill Williams]

One thing I would like to see, whether from Vixen or any PGP, is not only an acknowledgement of error but also an indication of the affect on their overall assessment of the case of the correction. They usually run away, change the subject or engage in some other evasion. When I learned the bleach receipts story was just a lie, I realised the case included lies and that it was being made by liars. That put me on the alert and raised the bar for other prosecution claims (virtually all of which have proved to be lies too). I shall be interested to see whether the high-powered brain of a 99.99% person like Vixen is proof against the human failings which distort thinking and inhibit honesty.

I'm not sure my recanting on calunnia counts, really, as an acknowledgement of error. As carbonjam72 relates - it was an epiphany of sorts; after reading Mignini's own accounting of the Nov 5/6 interrogation, it became plain what this whole thing was about.

 

[acbytesla]

It is good to keep an open mind. Did Couldson ever express concern that the 2 defendants were denied legal representation during the nighttime interrogations or that evidence which they might use in their defense was withheld, tampered with, destroyed, or concealed by the police and prosecution?

I'm not really sure. Couldson had the unique habit of sounding pro guilt by his posts, yet insisting that he was neutral and would defer to the courts.

 

[LondonJohn]

CoulsdonUK's sentiments towards the Kerchers are laudable - they were the first, and as it turns out the longest lasting victims of Italy's fumbling of this case.

I agree. And on that point, I find it despicable (truly despicable) that so many pro-guilt commentators have linked a belief in Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence with some sort of implicit attack on the victim and her family.

I think (and hope) that the overwhelming majority of pro-innocence/pro-acquittal commentators - myself included - sincerely want the Kercher family (and friends) to receive proper justice in relation to this crime, and to come to peace - or as much peace as is possible - with the outcome. I think that the final verdict has delivered "true justice for Meredith Kercher" - it's ironic (and telling) that so many pro-guilt commentators cannot see that to be the case.

 

[Numbers]

CoulsdonUK's sentiments towards the Kerchers are laudable - they were the first, and as it turns out the longest lasting victims of Italy's fumbling of this case.

I agree. And on that point, I find it despicable (truly despicable) that so many pro-guilt commentators have linked a belief in Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence with some sort of implicit attack on the victim and her family.

I think (and hope) that the overwhelming majority of pro-innocence/pro-acquittal commentators - myself included - sincerely want the Kercher family (and friends) to receive proper justice in relation to this crime, and to come to peace - or as much peace as is possible - with the outcome. I think that the final verdict has delivered "true justice for Meredith Kercher" - it's ironic (and telling) that so many pro-guilt commentators cannot see that to be the case.

It would be commendable - although probably not a standard legal practice - if the CSC apologized to the Kerchers for the Italian judiciary misleading them about the guilt of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

I speculate that the Kerchers could lodge a complaint with the ECHR against Italy for the ineffective investigation of the murder of their daughter and sister. If ECHR would take that case, it might lead to the disclosure of information that would help the Kerchers understand what lead to their being mislead by the Italian authorities.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree. And on that point, I find it despicable (truly despicable) that so many pro-guilt commentators have linked a belief in Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence with some sort of implicit attack on the victim and her family.

I think (and hope) that the overwhelming majority of pro-innocence/pro-acquittal commentators - myself included - sincerely want the Kercher family (and friends) to receive proper justice in relation to this crime, and to come to peace - or as much peace as is possible - with the outcome. I think that the final verdict has delivered "true justice for Meredith Kercher" - it's ironic (and telling) that so many pro-guilt commentators cannot see that to be the case.

I'm not sure there is proper justice for the family of a murder victim. I feel for the Kerchers. It has to be horrible to lose a child, particularly in such a horrible way. But their daughter's killer was prosecuted and incarcerated for killing their daughter. That was the real "true justice". But that doesn't make it proper. Rudy should have got a longer sentence, But, this is more than many families get. There are countless unsolvery murders.

What I really hope for the Kerchers is the peace that realizing that Rudy was probably their daughter's only killer, and that Meredith's roommate was her friend and had nothing to do with their daughter's demise.

 

[Bill Williams]

I agree. And on that point, I find it despicable (truly despicable) that so many pro-guilt commentators have linked a belief in Knox's/Sollecito's non-guilt/innocence with some sort of implicit attack on the victim and her family.
I think (and hope) that the overwhelming majority of pro-innocence/pro-acquittal commentators - myself included - sincerely want the Kercher family (and friends) to receive proper justice in relation to this crime, and to come to peace - or as much peace as is possible - with the outcome. I think that the final verdict has delivered "true justice for Meredith Kercher" - it's ironic (and telling) that so many pro-guilt commentators cannot see that to be the case.

LJ - with due respect - those guilters are non-entities.

 

[Kauffer]

It would be commendable - although probably not a standard legal practice - if the CSC apologized to the Kerchers for the Italian judiciary misleading them about the guilt of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

I speculate that the Kerchers could lodge a complaint with the ECHR against Italy for the ineffective investigation of the murder of their daughter and sister. If ECHR would take that case, it might lead to the disclosure of information that would help the Kerchers understand what lead to their being mislead by the Italian authorities.

That's an interesting idea Numbers. Is there much case law on this?

 

[Numbers]

That's an interesting idea Numbers. Is there much case law on this?

The case law I am aware of is where a criminal case - a murder, serious assault, or rape - is essentially not resolved due to State failures or incompetence, although the alleged perpetrators may have been identified.

The Meredith Kercher case may fall somewhat outside those boundaries, and thus I would not be certain that the ECHR would consider it admissible. However, with case law, there must always be a first case that is taken up and judged.

If the Kerchers did wish to seek answers, the first steps would be to explore the possibilities within the Italian legal system, which might mean launching a civil suit against appropriate authorities. I would hope that if the Kerchers were to do that, they would use a lawyer without any potential conflict - that is, not Maresca.

ETA: The Kerchers may have expended financial resources (as well as emotional ones) in their suit against Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. If they filed that suit in good faith but due to being mislead, perhaps intentionally mislead, by Italian authorities, it would seem to me that those authorities must compensate the Kerchers for any financial loss, and make some amends for causing emotional distress to persons already grieving over the loss by murder of their daughter and sister. Furthermore, the known, convicted murderer was unjustly given a light sentence by the Italian judiciary based on falsehoods, including a false statement of regret by the murderer and false statement of his role in the crime.

 

[acbytesla]

It would be commendable - although probably not a standard legal practice - if the CSC apologized to the Kerchers for the Italian judiciary misleading them about the guilt of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

I speculate that the Kerchers could lodge a complaint with the ECHR against Italy for the ineffective investigation of the murder of their daughter and sister. If ECHR would take that case, it might lead to the disclosure of information that would help the Kerchers understand what lead to their being mislead by the Italian authorities.

I think this is fantasy land. Is there any precedence at all? I doubt it.

 

[carbonjam72]

The case law I am aware of is where a criminal case - a murder, serious assault, or rape - is essentially not resolved due to State failures or incompetence, although the alleged perpetrators may have been identified.

The Meredith Kercher case may fall somewhat outside those boundaries, and thus I would not be certain that the ECHR would consider it admissible. However, with case law, there must always be a first case that is taken up and judged.

If the Kerchers did wish to seek answers, the first steps would be to explore the possibilities within the Italian legal system, which might mean launching a civil suit against appropriate authorities. I would hope that if the Kerchers were to do that, they would use a lawyer without any potential conflict - that is, not Maresca.

Couldn't the Kerchers start out by asking to meet with UK experts who have examined the case, like Dr Peter Gill, to explain to them why they believe Knox and Raf are innocent?

Listening to Arline's dismay upon hearing the acquittals was terribly sad. She seemed so fragile and completely in a bubble of misapprehension.

There's plenty of reason to believe and accept that only Rudy Guede hurt Meredith. Hopefully with Maresca out of the picture, they will have the courage to one day address it.

John Douglas, IIUC, says it is extremely difficult to get victims families to accept a belief that is contrary to one they have adopted, as a practical matter. Tragic all the way around. But does anyone doubt, this is all Mignini's fault, every bit of it? From failing to arrest Guede, to framing the innocent, to lying to the media to this day.

 

[anglolawyer]

Have we seen the last of Vixen? If so, I blame carbo for repeatedly and tediously demanding examples of Hellman's logic fails, as if Vixen's standing as a ninety nine point nine nine nine percenter (hope I didn't lose count there) obliged her to deal with such small-minded pettifoggery. She reminded me of Jackie. So long, Vixen.

 

[acbytesla]

Couldn't the Kerchers start out by asking to meet with UK experts who have examined the case, like Dr Peter Gill, to explain to them why they believe Knox and Raf are innocent?

Listening to Arline's dismay upon hearing the acquittals was terribly sad. She seemed so fragile and completely in a bubble of misapprehension.

There's plenty of reason to believe and accept that only Rudy Guede hurt Meredith. Hopefully with Maresca out of the picture, they will have the courage to one day address it.

John Douglas, IIUC, says it is extremely difficult to get victims families to accept a belief that is contrary to one they have adopted, as a practical matter. Tragic all the way around. But does anyone doubt, this is all Mignini's fault, every bit of it? From failing to arrest Guede, to framing the innocent, to lying to the media to this day.

Just look at the resistance from the guilters on this case. The Kerchers have more invested than any of them. I think it will take years if ever for the Kerchers to come to the conclusion that this was all a farce.

Maybe it is my optimism, but I would bet that they do...at some time.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the context of the quote is important

But, as Hellmann famously said, "Anything is possible".

Especially, it seems, in Italy.

Vixen,

Wasn't it Conti who said that, in response to a particular question about the gloves possibly having Sollecito's DNA?

 

[Kauffer]

Couldn't the Kerchers start out by asking to meet with UK experts who have examined the case, like Dr Peter Gill, to explain to them why they believe Knox and Raf are innocent?

Listening to Arline's dismay upon hearing the acquittals was terribly sad. She seemed so fragile and completely in a bubble of misapprehension.

There's plenty of reason to believe and accept that only Rudy Guede hurt Meredith. Hopefully with Maresca out of the picture, they will have the courage to one day address it.

John Douglas, IIUC, says it is extremely difficult to get victims families to accept a belief that is contrary to one they have adopted, as a practical matter. Tragic all the way around. But does anyone doubt, this is all Mignini's fault, every bit of it? From failing to arrest Guede, to framing the innocent, to lying to the media to this day.

Wasn't there some talk of her wanting to visit Guede? I wonder if it might still be possible for her to meet Amanda - whether indeed Amanda would still want to. I imagine she would. Having the Kercher's accept that she had nothing to do with the murder I assume would be rather cathartic.

 

[Samson]

Have we seen the last of Vixen? If so, I blame carbo for repeatedly and tediously demanding examples of Hellman's logic fails, as if Vixen's standing as a ninety nine point nine nine nine percenter (hope I didn't lose count there) obliged her to deal with such small-minded pettifoggery. She reminded me of Jackie. So long, Vixen.

Jackie did the same thing on IIP. But wasn't Jackie American?

 

[davefoc]

Just look at the resistance from the guilters on this case. The Kerchers have more invested than any of them. I think it will take years if ever for the Kerchers to come to the conclusion that this was all a farce.

Maybe it is my optimism, but I would bet that they do...at some time.

I don't have enough experience with different people to have an informed opinion about your prediction. After the DNA results were released that proved not only that the woman who claimed to be Anastasia wasn't but also proved who she was there were still a lot of Anastasia believers that said they'd never change their mind and that there was something wrong with the testing or the results.

I went looking to see if there were still people actively supporting the claim that Anna Anderson was actually Anastasia. It was surprisingly difficult to find which suggests that you are right, people when confronted with overwhelming evidence can change deeply held, long term views. But I found a site still supporting the claim that Anna Anderson was Anastasia and that is anecdotal evidence that you might be wrong.
http://www.snowtao.com/mr/anastasi.htm

My gut feel is that you are probably wrong about John Kercher, you might be right about Arline (especially if John dies before her) and you are probably right about the children. I base my prediction about John on the notion that he was deeply invested in proving the guilt of AK/RS and that the main public case against them arose in the British tabloids that he was associated with. My prediction is that the children will figure it out if they haven't already. Younger people are much more capable of changing deeply held, long term beliefs than older people IMO.

 

[Strozzi]

Just look at the resistance from the guilters on this case. The Kerchers have more invested than any of them. I think it will take years if ever for the Kerchers to come to the conclusion that this was all a farce.

Maybe it is my optimism, but I would bet that they do...at some time.

The Kercher parents may not be up to it. From what I have read, it appears that Mr. And Mrs. Kercher are in poor healty and suffering badly.

Perhaps their three adult children, who loved their sister Meredith as much as their parents did, can meet with experts such as Dr. Peter Gill. I would like to see them then speak out to say we now understand that the horrible murder of our sister was committed when she came home to a burglar hiding in the cottage, and that it was then followed by the horrible persecution of Meredith's American housemate and friend, Amanda, and her Italian boyfriend Raffaele who
Had met Mez twice but was deeply concerned about her murder and supported and consoled Amanda those last four days of their freedom.

Then the 3 Kercher siblings should disclose fully what the family was told by the police, Mignoni. Commodi, and any others. They should disclose what role Mignini had, if any, in steering them into the hands of Maresca, what Maresca told them early on, what his deal was with the family, what he said about Guede, and what ongoing feedback he gave to the Kercher family during the criminal prosecutions and civil lawsuit to seize Raffaele's inheritance and whatever little Amanda had - which was nothing as an imprisoned 20 year old student.

They also owe the 2 defendants deepest apologies for permitting their attorney to try to harm the defendants' efforts to defend themselves in court.

 

[davefoc]

...
Then the 3 Kercher siblings should disclose fully what the family was told by the police, Mignoni. Commodi, and any others. They should disclose what role Mignini had, if any, in steering them into the hands of Maresca, what Maresca told them early on, what his deal was with the family, what he said about Guede, and what ongoing feedback he gave to the Kercher family during the criminal prosecutions and civil lawsuit to seize Raffaele's inheritance and whatever little Amanda had - which was nothing as an imprisoned 20 year old student.

This would be very interesting if it happened. If I was John Kercher's son I wouldn't consider doing it until after he had died.