Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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And not just the prosecution Rose, virtually every pro guilt person on the face of the earth defended NOT testing the presumed semen stain, while pro innocents almost universally argued it should be tested.

It's as if every pro guilt person knew in their gut, but would not admit, even to themselves, that the presumptive semen on the pillow found under Meredith's naked body could not possibly be from Raffaele.

Nothing else so conspicuously demonstrates the pro guilt side's motivation to be a misguided vendetta against Raffael and Amanda.

Cody
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Can I play "devil's advocate" for a minute? Was it ever established the stain was semen, and not some other bodily fluid, or something else?

Stefanoni in the video announces they are to collect "blood and seminal fluids". However, as of that point it might have been an expectation, rather than an absolute fact. As of that point, they were not to know there wasn't any, or there was.
 
Arguing that the defense was late in asking hardly qualifies as seeking true justice for anyone


In law, everything follows a chronological timetable. You are expected to make your depositions, pleadings, evidence, witness statements, etc, by such and such a date. Otherwise, the hearing would go on forever.

In my experience, if somebody wants to submit something late, or even as the hearing is going on, it is usually accepted as, "in the public interest".
 
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Can I play "devil's advocate" for a minute? Was it ever established the stain was semen, and not some other bodily fluid, or something else?

Stefanoni in the video announces they are to collect "blood and seminal fluids". However, as of that point it might have been an expectation, rather than an absolute fact. As of that point, they were not to know there wasn't any, or there was.

The stain wasn't tested so how would it be determined to be one thing or the other? The point being made here is that it should have been tested in other to best serve justice. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why.
 
I don't believe the tube was fluid filled but rather the tube allowed for condensation but happy to be shown wrong.


I've got a feeling the tube was filled (or part-filled) with a liquid buffer solution. And I've also got a feeling (for the sake of accuracy) that this was one of those plastic conical-ended storage vials, rather than a tube per se. Like these:




I suspect that Chris H, who (I think) has more knowledge and certainty about this than I do, will be able to provide more detail (and correct me if I'm wrong)
 
In law, everything follows a chronological timetable. You are expected to make your depositions, pleadings, evidence, witness statements, etc, by such and such a date. Otherwise, the hearing would go on forever.

In my experience, if somebody wants to submit something late, or even as the hearing is going on, it is usually accepted as, "in the public interest".

I quoted Massei's reasoning to you up-thread and basically he determined it wasn't necessary. This wasn't some random goose chase it was a stain on the pillow under the victim. Massei said the defense expert discovered it. This implies that the crack ICSI missed it. The defense didn't come with experts. they had to hire them and pay them. The fact that they didn't discover every mistake the ICSI made fast enough shouldn't deny justice.
 
Can I play "devil's advocate" for a minute? Was it ever established the stain was semen, and not some other bodily fluid, or something else?

Stefanoni in the video announces they are to collect "blood and seminal fluids". However, as of that point it might have been an expectation, rather than an absolute fact. As of that point, they were not to know there wasn't any, or there was.


It could only be established that it was semen by testing it!

But there were actually strong presumptive suggestions that it was semen - its apparent viscosity was consistent with semen, and it reacted under a crimescope light in the way one would expect of semen. Furthermore, it was deposited on a pillow that was discovered underneath, and between the legs of, a near-naked murder victim. And lastly, there's smear evidence which suggests that the stain was wet at the time that Guede's bloody shoe prints were deposited on the pillow (therefore helping to time-stamp the stain to some time near to the murder).

Every single way you look at this issue (assuming you're a reasonable person), you cannot avoid the obvious conclusion: it's bordering on criminally negligent that the police did not test this stain.
 
In law, everything follows a chronological timetable. You are expected to make your depositions, pleadings, evidence, witness statements, etc, by such and such a date. Otherwise, the hearing would go on forever.

In my experience, if somebody wants to submit something late, or even as the hearing is going on, it is usually accepted as, "in the public interest".

Stefi tested what she wanted, when she wanted and released the results when she wanted and supressed what she wanted suppressed. Mach called it her strategy, she did work for the cops, after all.
 
In law, everything follows a chronological timetable. You are expected to make your depositions, pleadings, evidence, witness statements, etc, by such and such a date. Otherwise, the hearing would go on forever.
In my experience, if somebody wants to submit something late, or even as the hearing is going on, it is usually accepted as, "in the public interest".


In the context of the 7.5-year, 5-trial process of Knox and Sollecito, this seems ironically amusing..........
 
This case is over, and Italy finally did the right thing.

Before it was over, many on the innocence side said it was over despite Italy's fun and games, and getting stuck in the "judicial truth" trap - that Hellmann effectively ended it and it was "judicial truth only" after that, regardless of what ISC (March 213) and the Nencini court did. By any rational standard, ISC (2013) and the Nencini court simply came to conclusions against the evidence. It's the reason why many on the innocence side were convinced that the March 2015 version would simply continue the grand tradition begun by the 2013 Chieffi section of the ISC.

The Massei court rejected most of the Mignini/Comodi prosecution in 2009, substituting in its motivations report a very different crime than the one Mignini opened with, much less the one he closed with in Dec 2009. As even Vixen conceded it was musical motives, and simply a sideshow.... the only motive that the guilters would not entertain was no motive at all.

Which brings this back..... there never really was a case against AK and RS. Heck, on the night of the first conviction, even Barbie Latza Nadeau said as much, reporting from Perguia to a CNN audience..... "The prosecution case was weak, but the defence case was weaker. This could very well be overturned at appeal."

The people you name above, Kaosium, are simply resistant to the evidence. That is the only objective way of putting it.

Vixen didn't invent the memes he/she is bringing here... he/she is just repeating them as if they haven't already been long since disproven. Vixen thinks that Conti and Vecchiotti's appointment was.... well, to repeat:


The thing which separates a guilter from someone who believes in guilt, is that the former will say stuff like that: seemingly resistant to logic. There's just a commitment to phrase something in the most guilt-like way possible, hoping to slip it unnoticed under the door.

The thing which separates a guilter from someone who believes in guilt is the constant turning of tables - what properly belongs to the prosecution, in proving their allegations, is always flipped back onto Knox or Sollecito.... "I wonder why Raffaele never complained about police mistreatment..." "I wonder why Knox never laid a charge for her allegation of being hit...." "I wonder why the defence never asked for a test of the semen sample....." "Contamination must be proven or else all DNA convictions since 1986 are at risk....." "The defence was happy with the disclosure from Stefanoni, they never asked for the EDFs....."

Guilters act as if the prosecutions were simply a blank slate, not really an actor in this tragedy begun with a horrid murder.

It's got to do with arguing in good faith. You know, things like when shown the evidence which refutes a guilter claim, the guilter does not get to return to the same factoid three Continuations later as if nothing was shown!

I asked those questions, because those are the very questions a judge will ask. If it has not been pleaded, a judge cannot make a judgment on it.
 
I've got a feeling the tube was filled (or part-filled) with a liquid buffer solution. And I've also got a feeling (for the sake of accuracy) that this was one of those plastic conical-ended storage vials, rather than a tube per se. Like these:

I suspect that Chris H, who (I think) has more knowledge and certainty about this than I do, will be able to provide more detail (and correct me if I'm wrong)

This is most likely to be a result of the way in which the item was stored: the hooks were presented to the experts covered in a red-brown crusty material, probably due to oxidation of the salts in the extraction solution used by the Scientific Police, and from rusted elements of the metal.​

They stored the clasp before it was completely dry. Hellmann
 
I quoted Massei's reasoning to you up-thread and basically he determined it wasn't necessary. This wasn't some random goose chase it was a stain on the pillow under the victim. Massei said the defense expert discovered it. This implies that the crack ICSI missed it. The defense didn't come with experts. they had to hire them and pay them. The fact that they didn't discover every mistake the ICSI made fast enough shouldn't deny justice.


Exactly. It bears repeating that the police almost always control all the physical evidence in a criminal case. It's therefore legally and ethically incumbent upon the police to a) conduct all appropriate testing on the physical evidence, regardless whether such testing might ultimately be deemed useful to the prosecution or the defence; b) make all test results fully available to the prosecution and the defence equally; c) ensure that the physical evidence is safely stored and controlled (as far as is reasonably possible), and available to both prosecution and defence for examination if required, right through to a period well beyond the conclusion of any trial process.

And, oh wait......... not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni failed spectacularly on all three of these criteria.
 
I asked those questions, because those are the very questions a judge will ask. If it has not been pleaded, a judge cannot make a judgment on it.

Fortunately, the judges have no further say in this case. The final judgement has been rendered. It's over.
 
It could only be established that it was semen by testing it!

But there were actually strong presumptive suggestions that it was semen - its apparent viscosity was consistent with semen, and it reacted under a crimescope light in the way one would expect of semen. Furthermore, it was deposited on a pillow that was discovered underneath, and between the legs of, a near-naked murder victim. And lastly, there's smear evidence which suggests that the stain was wet at the time that Guede's bloody shoe prints were deposited on the pillow (therefore helping to time-stamp the stain to some time near to the murder).

Every single way you look at this issue (assuming you're a reasonable person), you cannot avoid the obvious conclusion: it's bordering on criminally negligent that the police did not test this stain.


I agree that if the facts are as you state, it is indeed astonishing!
 
Hey since you bring it up, before my hiatus you were going to get the police report from Nina. How that work out? About as well as Bertha? :p

Nina never said she was going to get the police report from Ms.Diaz. She did she would look into it. And I didn't stay on her case about it, I think she blew off the task.

Betha is being repaired as we speak. Hopefully, she'll work just fine when they put her back in the ground. I do expect her to get the job done though. Considering that in London they just completed 21 KM of tunneling with 8 similar TBMs and Sound Transit just had its 5th and about to complete it's 6th tunnel drive ahead of schedule in the last couple of years.
Let's both keep our fingers crossed about Bertha.
 
This is most likely to be a result of the way in which the item was stored: the hooks were presented to the experts covered in a red-brown crusty material, probably due to oxidation of the salts in the extraction solution used by the Scientific Police, and from rusted elements of the metal.​

They stored the clasp before it was completely dry. Hellmann

  1. What is the purpose of the extraction solution?
  2. What is the acceptable way to prepare an item for storage once a sample has been taken from the item?
  3. Is this a matter of a damp clasp being placed in a dry tube before the clasp fabric and hooks were air dried?
  4. Or was the item placed into a wet/damp tube and then sealed shut?
  5. Was their fluid in the tube already or was fluid added to the tube after insertion of the clasp?
    shut?
  6. Was it foreseeable that the item might be damaged and unusable for further (confirmatory) testing?
 
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I quoted Massei's reasoning to you up-thread and basically he determined it wasn't necessary. This wasn't some random goose chase it was a stain on the pillow under the victim. Massei said the defense expert discovered it. This implies that the crack ICSI missed it. The defense didn't come with experts. they had to hire them and pay them. The fact that they didn't discover every mistake the ICSI made fast enough shouldn't deny justice.

The defense lawyers should have appealed the refusal. Can you point to the testimony where it was discussed, if you know. (Don't worry,if not, I can do a search.)
 
The stain wasn't tested so how would it be determined to be one thing or the other? The point being made here is that it should have been tested in other to best serve justice. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why.


I am baffled as to why it wasn't tested, if only to identify what it was. I am not a cop, so excuse me if I ask a silly question. Do you think it might have been tested and disregarded as irrelevant? Out of the 1,000's samples, they're likely to be selective as to what is pertinent to the case.

They should, at the least, anyway, explain it.
 
That's exactly what it is, in fact.

The meaning of the term "refuted" is "shown to be wrong". If a claim has been refuted then that claim is wrong, because a claim that is true cannot be refuted any more than a claim which is false can be proven.

People frequently misuse "refuted" to mean "I made some flimsy attempt at a refutation which nobody believed for a minute", so you might have picked up the idea that "refuted" just means "was argued against", but that is not what the word is supposed to mean.

Fair enough. However, simply claiming you have refuted something does not make it so.
 
I am baffled as to why it wasn't tested, if only to identify what it was. I am not a cop, so excuse me if I ask a silly question. Do you think it might have been tested and disregarded as irrelevant? Out of the 1,000's samples, they're likely to be selective as to what is pertinent to the case.

They should, at the least, anyway, explain it.

It is exactly as Grinder explained upthread. So much so that Judge Massei went at length as to why it simply would not have been helpful to test it.
 
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