You assume that there has to be some repair--based on nothing. This is not rational or even coherent. It's wishfull thinking in its purest form.
Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming
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You assume that there has to be some repair--based on nothing. This is not rational or even coherent. It's wishfull thinking in its purest form.
tsig
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It's a copy of the True Shroud produced by Resurrection Energy when medieval cloth was placed next to the Real Thing.
Unexplained doesn't mean unexplainable. It also doesn't mean magic.
What in particular do you have in mind that cannot be explained, and which is relevant to the shroud?
Are you aware that 'cannot' is not the same as "not yet"?
Any sufficiently explained magic is indistinguishable from science. Magic, if it exists, would merely be an additional force operating within our universe. If it is consistent in some way--and to be identifiable it must be--it is ammenable to scientific examination. Science is an epistemological process, not a fact of nature, and therefore can work with ANY consistent set of rules.
If a scientist were transported to Middle-Earth, they would be able to examine the magic of that world as easily as the electromagnetic force of our own.
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
I'm pretty sure that after all this time we all know that that's what you're saying.
Unfortunately for your side it's as foolish and irrelevant a thing to say as it's ever been.
For example, evidence for a 2,000-year-old tablecloth.
Bilge, with big smelly lumps of drivel floating in it.
I also want to point out that a magical reality (meaning that science can't explain everything) doesn't preclude coming to conclusions via science. We know we can't answer all geometrical questions via geometrical tools--for example, trisecting an angle has eluded mathematicians for thousands of years, and some questions have been proven to be impossible to solve via geometry--but that doesn't mean we can't know the length of the third leg of a triangle given the lengths of the other two and the connecting angle between those two sides.
The questions science hasn't answered are far, far, FAR removed from "Is the Shroud of Turin the burial cloth of Jesus?" Every bit of evidence we have presented against concluding that it is is based on verified science, stuff that is the equivalent of trig in geometry.
In other words: Even if we assume that everything science hasn't explained is inexplicable via science, it doesn't help Jabba's case one iota. We may not be able to prove everything--but we CAN prove THIS.
The questions science hasn't answered are far, far, FAR removed from "Is the Shroud of Turin the burial cloth of Jesus?" Every bit of evidence we have presented against concluding that it is is based on verified science, stuff that is the equivalent of trig in geometry.
In other words: Even if we assume that everything science hasn't explained is inexplicable via science, it doesn't help Jabba's case one iota. We may not be able to prove everything--but we CAN prove THIS.
ferd burfle
Graduate Poster
A phrase that is always, as it is here, followed by nonsense. Jabba, there are not multiple varieties of science. That you resort to invoking such in an attempt to justify your beliefs is quite telling.
Jabba
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Belz,
- How about free will?
Jabba
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Carbon Dating Doubts/Repair&Contamination Otherwise
- I haven't been able to find the quote, but I think that Hugh accepts that there has been some repair done on the sample.
Dinwar,
- I haven't been able to find the quote, but I think that Hugh accepts that there has been some repair done on the sample.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
Define it (in another thread there should already some of those) and we can talk. Usually once it is properly defined, it comes down to something either very trivial, or something which is not demonstrable to exists at all.
Try it. Define properly what you meant as free will.
Basically thought , consciousness and so forth are seen as the emergent processes (note plural) of the brain, the decision process being basically done by the sub conscious and only being made aware to the conscious at a later stage. All being very materialistic and an emergent property of the neuronal network.
Nothing which will help you here I am afraid.
tsig
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Your ship of logic has capsized in the middle of the stream.
Find a thousand people who say there was; numbers are irrelevant. First, because the types of repairs you are limited to would provide BETTER dating, as they would be a random sample of fibers from throughout the cloth; and second, because the Bandwaggon Fallacy is no substitute for evidence. You have no physical evidence from the shroud to suggest there was a patch. Period. No one who studied the shroud found any such evidence. Period. There is nothing supporting your belief that there was a patch but your desire for there to have been one. Period.
Also, let's please try to stay on topic. Again, even if we assume that everything science hasn't explained is due to magic--an obviously nonsensical idea even among those who believe in magic, but it gives you the best shot--it would do nothing to help your cause because science CAN explain everything involved in dating the shroud well enough to use several of the concepts in medicine (if you doubt the C14 dating, never do anything with modern medicine, because those samples are horribly uncontrolled in comparison). Casting the widest amount of doubt possible doesn't save your nonsense, Jabba. Nothing more reasonable will either.
Peregrinus
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"Magic, if it exists on this planet, is contained in water." - Loren Eiseley
Belz...
Fiend God
What about it ?
According to "mainstream" science, there is no such thing, and the mind is made aware of decisions made by the brain several moments prior. You chose poorly.
Jabba
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Jabba
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Dinwar,
- I was responding to that first quote. I would argue that if Hugh accepts that there was some repair, that conclusion is not based upon wishful thinking.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
It is mainstream without scare quote.
And there is no need for mainstream as a word here. It is just science.
I would say you are pretty much the ONLY one which don't agree with science.
Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
Are we speaking of the hugh of this thread ?
What hugh think or does not think is irrelevant. Evidence based and gathered and published is relevant.
There is no evidence based on science which shows invisible repair thread existing. neither with the french method (invisible repair) nor with any other method of similar ilk.
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Filippo Lippi
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Everyone accepts there is some repair, it's bleedingly obvious. No one, but the most desperate and the most credulous, accepts that there is a jot of evidence for the invisible repair. You have accepted that there is no evidence for invisible mending at least once in this tortuous thread.
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