Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[anglolawyer]

But how did Guede know there was a key to the downstairs apartment in the upstairs one? Is it possible that Meredith went downstairs first when she returned (to feed the cat/water the plants), made some noise there which Guede heard, and then came upstairs and ran into Guede?

And why, if signs of his presence were so obvious, were they not brought out at trial by either side? Another question - why did the cops break in downstairs at all? What led them down there? I guess the answer to that one must be the blood trail on the steps.

 

[Grinder]

We know that Kercher had the keys to the downstairs apartment because she had undertaken (kind girl as she was) to water her boyfriend's cannabis plants while he was away. We can also conclude that Guede took keys from Kercher (probably from inside her bag, or possibly from a surface inside her bedroom), since none of her keys were found subsequently - and also because Kercher's door was locked from the outside, and it's very likely that Guede would have needed the keys to open the front door of the cottage in order to exit the premises.

The police probably made the keys disappear at the same time the text from PL vanished

So I personally think it's possible that Guede had so much blood on his own trousers after the murder that he decided the best option was to take a pair of trousers from the downstairs apartment (obviously there would have been no suitable trousers in the girls' apartment). It's plausible that he could have had the means of entry via the keys Kercher was in possession of (the keys might even have been handily marked with Silenzi's name or the address of the boys' apartment).

I doubt the address was on the the keys. Maybe a name but why?

And if that did happen, then I can also see how it's plausible that the police and PM might have wanted to minimise the attention paid to the boys' apartment in the context of a Knox/Sollecito/Guede group murder.

It would seem hard to know to suppress so early on but if so many in the PLE would know.

 

[Strozzi]

There possibly is. Certainly some of the things we do know about the downstairs apartment - the blood on the light switch, the blood on the bedding - seem out of the ordinary.

We know that Kercher had the keys to the downstairs apartment because she had undertaken (kind girl as she was) to water her boyfriend's cannabis plants while he was away. We can also conclude that Guede took keys from Kercher (probably from inside her bag, or possibly from a surface inside her bedroom), since none of her keys were found subsequently - and also because Kercher's door was locked from the outside, and it's very likely that Guede would have needed the keys to open the front door of the cottage in order to exit the premises.

The other strange thing - as others have pointed out - is the ticket stub for an art exhibition in Rome (IIRC) that was found in a pair of trousers (again IIRC) in Guede's apartment. Guede was apparently not known for his art appreciation, not to mention that he was a petty criminal focussing on getting enough money to live and buy/sell drugs. On the other hand, one of the boys in the downstairs apartment was an art lover and (IIRC) had been in Rome at the time of that exhibition.

So I personally think it's possible that Guede had so much blood on his own trousers after the murder that he decided the best option was to take a pair of trousers from the downstairs apartment (obviously there would have been no suitable trousers in the girls' apartment). It's plausible that he could have had the means of entry via the keys Kercher was in possession of (the keys might even have been handily marked with Silenzi's name or the address of the boys' apartment).

And if that did happen, then I can also see how it's plausible that the police and PM might have wanted to minimise the attention paid to the boys' apartment in the context of a Knox/Sollecito/Guede group murder.

I somehow doubt we'll ever know the truth about what really did (or did not) happen wrt the boys' apartment on the night of the murder. To a degree, it's moot anyhow, since the true sole killer, Rudy Guede, has been identified and brought to justice. The only way in which it would be of benefit to know would be if it exposed corruption by the police/PM in suppressing evidence.

Could Raffaele's request for compensation include a demand to review all evidence collected in order to fully understand the wrong perpetrated against him and damages therefore due, including possibly suppressed or exculpatory evidence? The amount of compensation he demands could conceivably be greater if evidence was withheld/concealed.

Could he claim maltreatment in prison and demand to see all records related to his confinement, including records reflecting who initiated confining him in solitary confinement? What I am getting at is any evidence that Mignini was involved in having him put in solitary.

Can he file suit against specific state employees such as Stefanini in their personal capacity for surpressing, tainting, or destroying evidence? How about the postal police technician who fried some of the computers?

 

[Grinder]

But how did Guede know there was a key to the downstairs apartment in the upstairs one? Is it possible that Meredith went downstairs first when she returned (to feed the cat/water the plants), made some noise there which Guede heard, and then came upstairs and ran into Guede?

And why, if signs of his presence were so obvious, were they not brought out at trial by either side? Another question - why did the cops break in downstairs at all? What led them down there? I guess the answer to that one must be the blood trail on the steps.

She could have done the watering and had a swig off the bottle she bought him for his birthday.

 

[carbonjam72]

But how did Guede know there was a key to the downstairs apartment in the upstairs one? Is it possible that Meredith went downstairs first when she returned (to feed the cat/water the plants), made some noise there which Guede heard, and then came upstairs and ran into Guede?

And why, if signs of his presence were so obvious, were they not brought out at trial by either side? Another question - why did the cops break in downstairs at all? What led them down there? I guess the answer to that one must be the blood trail on the steps.

Well this is an interesting question, depending on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

If the police recognized Guede's entry through Filomena's window, then breaking the glass downstairs could complicate the chance of finding any glass from Filo's window tracked downstairs.

It's hard to believe they would be that well thought out. It's also hard to believe they would 'Laurel and Hardy' their way into the downstairs apartment.

As in so many stages of the proceedings, I am left asking the question, "Could they really be that..."?

(good speculation on Meredtih going down there first - Rudy definitely mixed a noise downstairs into his story. But that makes more sense if he's covering for himself, after the crime - than for Meredtih before. LJ's idea that the key could have been marked also seems reasonable - ofcourse the boys downstairs could confirm this, did they?).

 

[carbonjam72]

Could Raffaele's request for compensation include a demand to review all evidence collected in order to fully understand the wrong perpetrated against him and damages therefore due, including possibly suppressed or exculpatory evidence? The amount of compensation he demands could conceivably be greater if evidence was withheld/concealed.

Could he claim maltreatment in prison and demand to see all records related to his confinement, including records reflecting who initiated confining him in solitary confinement? What I am getting at is any evidence that Mignini was involved in having him put in solitary.

Can he file suit against specific state employees such as Stefanini in their personal capacity for surpressing, tainting, or destroying evidence? How about the postal police technician who fried some of the computers?

These are great points. I'm pretty sure Raf's legal team, especially Bonjourno will leave no stone unturned. I think they are pissed, and I'm getting the sense this Italian vendetta thing can be pretty serious once it gets going.

Four years in jail and all the harassment and invasion of privacy, is so far beyond anything remotely acceptable, I can see them going after some of the worst players.

LJ pointed to some cryptic tweets from Frank about Mignini. So, time will tell I guess.

 

[Strozzi]

These are great points. I'm pretty sure Raf's legal team, especially Bonjourno will leave no stone unturned. I think they are pissed, and I'm getting the sense this Italian vendetta thing can be pretty serious once it gets going.

Four years in jail and all the harassment and invasion of privacy, is so far beyond anything remotely acceptable, I can see them going after some of the worst players.

LJ pointed to some cryptic tweets from Frank about Mignini. So, time will tell I guess.

Of course four years in prison and all the harassment and invasion of privacy is just part of it. Until a month ago prosecutors were still trying to put Raffaele in prison for another 21 years, even though so much refutation of their evidence had been presented. I don't know Raffaele's position on this, but if it were me I would go after every major protagonist and offer leniency to minor players provided they cooperate against their bosses and disclose what they knew and when they knew it.

 

[Bill Williams]

For these reasons it is surprising that the police in their interviews and interrogation, or Mignini in his subsequent 'passive listening/notarization of Amanda's spontaneous statement', did not want the entire conversation recorded to identify inaccuracies in language. Had she limited her participation to professional interpreting (rather than "mediating"), interpreter Anna Donnino should have wanted everything recorded for language translation quality control. But then, voice recording might have exposed some unpleasant occurrences which are probably common in police midnight interrogations.

One of the better known guilters here on ISF called what Donnino did, "diplomacy". Why the H*** can't people just do their jobs in Perugia - why do they have to do some other job, like notary'ing (if that's a word!)?

It wasn't just Amanda Knox who needed an interpretor that night - the cops (Ficara, et al.) needed one.

 

[Bill Williams]

Of course four years in prison and all the harassment and invasion of privacy is just part of it. Until a month ago prosecutors were still trying to put Raffaele in prison for another 21 years, even though so much refutation of their evidence had been presented. I don't know Raffaele's position on this, but if it were me I would go after every major protagonist and offer leniency to minor players provided they cooperate against their bosses.

Maybe he can even shake out of one the minor players the tape (video or audio) of his Nov 5/6 interrogation; even if only to confirm/deny there ever was one. The surrendering of his shoes pretty much iced it that at that point Raffaele was a suspect.

The thing which pretty much confirms that this was incompetence, rather than conspiracy on behalf of the PLE, is that no one has turned on someone else in the past 7 1/2 years.

 

[Dan O.]

Re: the ragazzo thing - it's possible that various things could have been lost in translation there. Amanda may have used the term "guy", which would be perfectly normal, and it may have been translated as ragazzo by the police. Or, as with "see you later", Amanda may have been unfamiliar with the Italian idioms and thought that "ragazzo" meant "guy".

Mignini says in the CNN interview I quoted earlier that Donnino was translating and a police woman was recording the statement.

In the record of the statement itself:

On November 6th 2007, at 05.45, in Perugia at the Offices of the Squadra Mobile of the Questura. Before the Undersigned Dr. MIGNINI Giuliano Deputy Prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor’s Office of the Republic at the Court of Perugia and before the Judicial Police Officers Chief Inspector, FICARRA Rita, respectively on duty at the office above mentioned in the epigraph and in presence of the person mentioned in the re who although sufficiently understands and speaks Italian is assisted by the English-speaking interpreter Anna Donnino and who in relation to the death of KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara, declares the following:
​

Do Ficarra or Donnino offer any reflection on this episode in their testimonies?

 

[Numbers]

Mignini says in the CNN interview I quoted earlier that Donnino was translating and a police woman was recording the statement.

In the record of the statement itself:

On November 6th 2007, at 05.45, in Perugia at the Offices of the Squadra Mobile of the Questura. Before the Undersigned Dr. MIGNINI Giuliano Deputy Prosecutor of the Public Prosecutor’s Office of the Republic at the Court of Perugia and before the Judicial Police Officers Chief Inspector, FICARRA Rita, respectively on duty at the office above mentioned in the epigraph and in presence of the person mentioned in the re who although sufficiently understands and speaks Italian is assisted by the English-speaking interpreter Anna Donnino and who in relation to the death of KERCHER Meredith Susanna Cara, declares the following:
​

Do Ficarra or Donnino offer any reflection on this episode in their testimonies?

What does the above boiler-plate statement mean? Was there an English-language statement by Amanda, or one in Italian with some help from the "interpreter".

It should also be noted that the 5:45 statement is 4 hours later that the first coerced statement. What transpired during that time that would have affected the later statement? Obviously the police and prosecutor did not fulfill their obligation to get Amanda legal counsel during that time. (And perhaps one reason for an overnight interrogation is that lawyers may tend to be less available during such hours.)

Lack of any verbatim recording of what was actually said - including IMO Mignini's likely leading questioning "as a notary" - suggests that this alleged statement from Amanda lacks validity.

 

[Grinder]

Maybe he can even shake out of one the minor players the tape (video or audio) of his Nov 5/6 interrogation; even if only to confirm/deny there ever was one. The surrendering of his shoes pretty much iced it that at that point Raffaele was a suspect.

The thing which pretty much confirms that this was incompetence, rather than conspiracy on behalf of the PLE, is that no one has turned on someone else in the past 7 1/2 years.

I would have sworn that someone claimed the recording (in a modern country like Italy by 2007 they didn't use "tape" anymore) was going to be released years ago.

I don't understand why if it was conspiracy then it would more likely for someone to come forward. As you know I've always defaulted to incompetence, particularly early on. I still believe that the PLE really believed the kids were involved for quite some time. If a recording exists then I find nearly impossible that someone wouldn't cashed in. Even if a recording had been made and destroyed I find it hard to believe no word of that has come out.

But then I could just be 180 degrees off just like my prediction as to what the ISC would do.

 

[Dan O.]

I would have sworn that someone claimed the recording (in a modern country like Italy by 2007 they didn't use "tape" anymore) was going to be released years ago.

I don't understand why if it was conspiracy then it would more likely for someone to come forward. As you know I've always defaulted to incompetence, particularly early on. I still believe that the PLE really believed the kids were involved for quite some time. If a recording exists then I find nearly impossible that someone wouldn't cashed in. Even if a recording had been made and destroyed I find it hard to believe no word of that has come out.

But then I could just be 180 degrees off just like my prediction as to what the ISC would do.

Would Mignini release his personal recording of the 5:45 interrogation? I don't think he would but he might keep it safe in case Ficarra or Donnino turned on him.

Would Giobbi release the recordings he made in the control room that night? If he offered testimony in court that there were no recordings, the release could hurt him more than he could gain. Perhaps after he retires and the statute of limitation for purgory expires they could come out.

How about a technician that works in the police station and has access to the installed recording systems? If such access exists, could it safely be exploited?

The company that would have installed the recording system already got their payday in a €186,000 contract for the animated cartoon. Releasing the recording could expose them in a coverup conspiracy that would instantly rescind everything they earned.

I had offered much earlier a path to discovery of any official recording. But this trail in the records and computer logs would surely be lost by now.

 

[acbytesla]

I would have sworn that someone claimed the recording (in a modern country like Italy by 2007 they didn't use "tape" anymore) was going to be released years ago.

I don't understand why if it was conspiracy then it would more likely for someone to come forward. As you know I've always defaulted to incompetence, particularly early on. I still believe that the PLE really believed the kids were involved for quite some time. If a recording exists then I find nearly impossible that someone wouldn't cashed in. Even if a recording had been made and destroyed I find it hard to believe no word of that has come out.

But then I could just be 180 degrees off just like my prediction as to what the ISC would do.

Conspiracies of more than a couple of people usually end up being uncovered because of the nature of human beings. People just have a hard time keeping a secret.

That said, I find it hard to believe that they didn't have some kind of electronic recording. But I doubt we'll ever know any more than we do right now. If it was recorded, they erased it long ago. Probably that very day.

 

[Grinder]

Conspiracies of more than a couple of people usually end up being uncovered because of the nature of human beings. People just have a hard time keeping a secret.

That said, I find it hard to believe that they didn't have some kind of electronic recording. But I doubt we'll ever know any more than we do right now. If it was recorded, they erased it long ago. Probably that very day.

I stick with incompetence and think they didn't record. I think they probably did worry about the need to transcribe and therefore left recording devices off a lot.

I doubt Mignini electronically recorded because he knew he was on thin ice.

If there was a recording why would they erase it immediately? Who would have done that? One would think that even in Italy there would be some tracking of recordings. If Amanda was guilty as I'm sure they thought they wouldn't worry about the recording going public. It's not like they water boarded her. If there was a recording, one would think that many people would listen to it for more clues.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting on police to turn on each other. This article entitled "Why Cops Aren't Whistleblowers" is duly instructive. Money quote:

In January 2003, Bowling was on his way to fill a prescription when Timothy McCue, an on-duty DEA agent, tried to pass him illegally on the right side of a wide one-lane street. Bowling accelerated to prevent McCue from passing, and the two cars collided. After the collision, McCue and another agent got out of their car. McCue drew his gun, threw Bowling to the ground, and beat him to the point of inflicting brain damage. McCue later justified the violence by saying Bowling “resisted arrest” when he lifted his head from the pavement. According to witnesses, McCue threatened to kill Bowling, whom he called “white trash” and a “system-dodging inbred hillbilly.”

McCue, the DEA, and officers of the Kansas City Police Department then conspired to cover up the beating. Bowling was charged with leaving the scene of an accident and assaulting McCue with his car during the collision. He was later acquitted on those charges but convicted of possessing drug paraphernalia—a marijuana pipe police found in his car. Witness statements incriminating McCue for both the accident and the beating were lost or destroyed, as were photos of the damage McCue inflicted on Bowling’s face.

Only one of the officers at the accident scene that day had any integrity. That would be Seifert, a cop with an exemplary record. Seifert took the witness statements that implicated McCue. He documented Bowling’s injuries and testified for Bowling in his lawsuit. He actively fought the cover-up.

As Judge Robinson pointed out, Seifert was forced into early retirement because of his actions. He lost part of his pension and his retirement health insurance. He was “shunned, subjected to gossip and defamation by his police colleagues, and treated as a pariah,” Robinson said. “The way Seifert was treated was shameful.”

So what happened to the cops involved in the cover-up? Ronald Miller, then Kansas City’s police chief, is now the police chief in Topeka. Steven Culp, then Kansas City’s deputy police chief, is now, incredibly, executive director of the Kansas Commission on Peace Officers’ Standards and Training. Officer Robert Lane went on to become a councilman for the town of Edwardsville, where he was later convicted of participating in a ticket-fixing scheme. And McCue is still with the DEA.

ETA: For that matter, consider the experience of Vanessa Sollecito.

 

[acbytesla]

I stick with incompetence and think they didn't record. I think they probably did worry about the need to transcribe and therefore left recording devices off a lot.

I doubt Mignini electronically recorded because he knew he was on thin ice.

If there was a recording why would they erase it immediately? Who would have done that? One would think that even in Italy there would be some tracking of recordings. If Amanda was guilty as I'm sure they thought they wouldn't worry about the recording going public. It's not like they water boarded her. If there was a recording, one would think that many people would listen to it for more clues.

No, I don't buy the incompetence argument. They either deliberately recorded or didn't record it. Either they recorded it and were uncomfortable with the impression it would make or it was their habit not to record because they have always been uncomfortable of what happens in the box.

 

[Bill Williams]

I would have sworn that someone claimed the recording (in a modern country like Italy by 2007 they didn't use "tape" anymore) was going to be released years ago.

I don't understand why if it was conspiracy then it would more likely for someone to come forward. As you know I've always defaulted to incompetence, particularly early on. I still believe that the PLE really believed the kids were involved for quite some time. If a recording exists then I find nearly impossible that someone wouldn't cashed in. Even if a recording had been made and destroyed I find it hard to believe no word of that has come out.

But then I could just be 180 degrees off just like my prediction as to what the ISC would do.

If prediction records were any indication...... I've been off 180 degrees on exactly every decision made by the Italian judiciary!

My view is that a conspiracy requires each person within it to make a conscious decision to take part - either because of self-interest, or what have you. But the key is there is something conscious about it. Conscious decisions like that are not like going along with "group think", the driving force of incompetence. It is very difficult for people to reach down into the depths of group-think and reverse direction.....

Right now it seems that incompetence is what happened during the night of Nov 5/6, including people like Ficara not demanding an accurate translation of key texts - like the "See you later," SMS message. Translation is always interpretation, and a competent translator would have paid attention to what was going astray, seeing the cops get all excited about an otherwise garden-variety exchange between employer/employee.

The pressure was on, AK's mom was arriving soon, and the very last lead they had was about to dry up. The incompetence was that there was no one in authority, or in supervision over Ficara and Napoleoni who was willing to say:

Whoa.... slow down, you move too fast. You got to make the morning last.....​

At the risk of getting another finger-wagging, there was an author who seemed to have had the inner thoughts of the cops/prosecutors at his disposal, an author who completely out of the blue wrote that Marco Chiacchiera counselled exactly that; because it is simply hard to believe that in this cascade of incompetence there wasn't one cop in the whole Questura who didn't say, "Release them, observe them, and see what happens....."

Ok, gentlemen, start your fingers wagging!

 

[carbonjam72]

No, I don't buy the incompetence argument. They either deliberately recorded or didn't record it. Either they recorded it and were uncomfortable with the impression it would make or it was their habit not to record because they have always been uncomfortable of what happens in the box.

There was another big case recently, where the defendant's alibi was on a computer drive that the police forensics team fried, and was still able to obtain conviction.

Its the idea that when the police destroy evidence, its not counted in favor of defense, that seems to be one of the big continuing problems.

But further, it seems like there are common strategies the police pursue to frame suspects; including unrecorded coercive interrogations, denial of legal council, concealed or destroyed exculpatory evidence within police control, absurd tramp career witnesses, fanciful evidence free motives that change numerous times in mid trial, pseudo science used as evidence, media vilification, and probably other recurring strategies.

Mignini's first decision on the crime scene was to not take the corpse temperature, hence muddying the time of death. That omission by Mignini enlarged the window he could claim the crime occurred, and made it more difficult for ANY defendants to produce an alibi for the enlarged time frame.

I think Mignini and the police regularly fame suspects, and view their job in this way. I think to some degree, the Italian public expects it, and simply acquiesces to the idea that from time to time, innocent citizens will be obliged to occupy themselves in prison, simply to avoid embarrassing the authorities.

 

[carbonjam72]

If prediction records were any indication...... I've been off 180 degrees on exactly every decision made by the Italian judiciary!

My view is that a conspiracy requires each person within it to make a conscious decision to take part - either because of self-interest, or what have you. But the key is there is something conscious about it. Conscious decisions like that are not like going along with "group think", the driving force of incompetence. It is very difficult for people to reach down into the depths of group-think and reverse direction.....

Right now it seems that incompetence is what happened during the night of Nov 5/6, including people like Ficara not demanding an accurate translation of key texts - like the "See you later," SMS message. Translation is always interpretation, and a competent translator would have paid attention to what was going astray, seeing the cops get all excited about an otherwise garden-variety exchange between employer/employee.

The pressure was on, AK's mom was arriving soon, and the very last lead they had was about to dry up. The incompetence was that there was no one in authority, or in supervision over Ficara and Napoleoni who was willing to say:

Whoa.... slow down, you move too fast. You got to make the morning last.....​

At the risk of getting another finger-wagging, there was an author who seemed to have had the inner thoughts of the cops/prosecutors at his disposal, an author who completely out of the blue wrote that Marco Chiacchiera counselled exactly that; because it is simply hard to believe that in this cascade of incompetence there wasn't one cop in the whole Questura who didn't say, "Release them, observe them, and see what happens....."

Ok, gentlemen, start your fingers wagging!

Bill, you are hardly the "Wrong Way Corrigan" of the skeptics board.

And on this point, I tend to agree. the idea of GroupThink seems a better explanation. But I can't dismiss outright, the influence of Mignini, Napoleone, Zugarini, on the crime scene on day ONE, recognizing Rudy Guede's style of breaking and entry.

You may laugh (Ccha-wa-wa), but both Steve Moore and Judge Nencini himself say it is so. (I wonder where Nencini got it from?).

Hellman said he was ostracized after the acquittal in bars and restaurants around town, and resigned early as a result (by the way, wouldn't it be great if they pulled Hellman out of retirement?).

So groupthink? Yes. Witch Hunt? Yes. Conspiracy? Yes.

Just because you're a paranoid, doesn't mean the world isn't plotting against you.