Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Strozzi]

Grinder, do you think these are the words of a 20 year old Amanda Knox, dictated without prompting or questioning over a span of time from 03:00 till 05:45?

I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically.
...​

Mignini needs to learn that if he is going to lie about what Amanda allegedly told him in her "spontaneous" confession, he has to lie with credibility. He flunks the credibility test when he wrote that Knox referred to Patrick, then a 37 year old African man, as the "African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”. No 20 year old white girl from Seattle would refer to a 37 year old black man, her employer, as a "boy".

That is from cartwheel fantasy world. It shows that the "spontaneous statement" attributed by Mignini to Amanda was not of her making.

 

[Strozzi]

Duplicate

 

[Chris_Halkides]

art history exhibit

I think that there was also the issue of a ticket stub for an art exhibit in another city. Maybe Rudi went there so that he could teach about art history, but somehow I doubt it.

 

[Numbers]

Mignini needs to learn that if he is going to lie about what Amanda allegedly told him in her "spontaneous" confession, he has to lie with credibility. He flunks the credibility test when he wrote that Knox referred to Patrick, then a 37 year old African man, as the "African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”. No 20 year old white girl from Seattle would refer to a 37 year old black man, her employer, as a "boy".

That is from cartwheel fantasy world.

When this statement was written to be taken to be the words of Amanda Knox, the relevant words used by the Italian authorities were:

"il ragazzo Africano".

This may be translated as "the African boy", but there could be other translations of "ragazzo", as found in Google Translate:

Translations of ragazzo
noun

boy

ragazzo, maschio, figlio, garzone

boyfriend

ragazzo, fidanzato, amichetto

kid

capretto, bambino, ragazzo, bimbo, marmocchio, piccino

youngster

giovanotto, giovane, ragazzo

nipper

pinza, pinzetta, ragazzo, chela

lad

ragazzo, giovanotto, giovanetto, fattorino

fellow

compagno, tipo, individuo, ragazzo, membro, socio

youth

gioventù, giovinezza, giovane, i giovani, ragazzo, adolescenza

jack

cricco, martinetto, fante, morsetto, boccino, ragazzo

Thus, the intended meaning possibly could have been "the African fellow". With no verbatim recording of the interactions, one cannot be positive what the authorities meant when they wrote "ragazzo" but it apparently is not a formal or in this case, respectful, term.

The word for "man" in Italian is "uomo".

 

[Numbers]

Mignini needs to learn that if he is going to lie about what Amanda allegedly told him in her "spontaneous" confession, he has to lie with credibility. He flunks the credibility test when he wrote that Knox referred to Patrick, then a 37 year old African man, as the "African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic”. No 20 year old white girl from Seattle would refer to a 37 year old black man, her employer, as a "boy".

That is from cartwheel fantasy world. It shows that the "spontaneous statement" attributed by Mignini to Amanda was not of her making.

When this statement was written to be taken to be the words of Amanda Knox, the relevant words used by the Italian authorities were:

"il ragazzo Africano".

This may be translated as "the African boy", but there could be other translations of "ragazzo", as found in Google Translate:

...
fellow

compagno, tipo, individuo, ragazzo, membro, socio

...
Thus, the intended meaning possibly could have been "the African fellow". With no verbatim recording of the interactions, one cannot be positive what the authorities meant when they wrote "ragazzo" but it apparently is not a formal or in this case, respectful, term.

The word for "man" in Italian is "uomo".

I copied the first sentence of the 5:45 "spontaneous" statement into Google translate and obtained "ragazzo" translated into "guy":

Voglio riferire spontaneamente quello che e successo perche questa vicenda mi ha turbata profundamente ed ho molto paura di Patrick, il ragazzo Africano, proprietario del pub ....

I want to report spontaneously what happened and why this story has troubled me profoundly and I very afraid of Patrick, the African guy, owner of the pub ....

It is not merely the use of "ragazzo" that is questionable. Obviously, the form of the statement is "Italian officialese". There is no credible reason for an American to begin saying "I want to report spontaneously...". This is clearly the wording of the Italian authorities (such as PM Mignini) who need to cast the wording into a particular form to appear to meet Italian legal requirements. There is no evidence that Amanda was ever afraid of Patrick before the Nov. 5/6, 2007 coercive interrogation. And evidence has shown that the whole statement is untrue. It was the invention of the Italian police and prosecutor, who, through coercive methods, altered the will and, apparently, for a time the memory of Amanda Knox.

 

[Samson]

I copied the first sentence of the 5:45 "spontaneous" statement into Google translate and obtained "ragazzo" translated into "guy":



It is not merely the use of "ragazzo" that is questionable. Obviously, the form of the statement is "Italian officialese". There is no credible reason for an American to begin saying "I want to report spontaneously...". This is clearly the wording of the Italian authorities (such as PM Mignini) who need to cast the wording into a particular form to appear to meet Italian legal requirements. There is no evidence that Amanda was ever afraid of Patrick before the Nov. 5/6, 2007 coercive interrogation. And evidence has shown that the whole statement is untrue. It was the invention of the Italian police and prosecutor, who, through coercive methods, altered the will and, apparently, for a time the memory of Amanda Knox.

I see Peter Quennell offering an alternative narrative, he is still around.

" "Shortly after, Ficarra suggests to Knox that if she really wants to help, she could add to the list of possible perps - men who Meredith knew and who might have visited the house.

As the defenses acknowledge during their cross-examinations of key investigators present on the night, this was merely a recap/summary, a simple checking of facts with someone who might be helpful which could have been done on a street corner. It was not a witness or suspect interrogation.

Knox eagerly agrees. So they begin on the list.

This goes slowly because of language problems, until an interpreter, Anna Donnino, arrives. In total Knox and four others (three of them women) are present. Knox builds a list of seven people and adds maps and phone numbers (in evidence) in a calm proceeding. These were the names: Peter Svizzero, Patrick, Ardak, Juve, Spiros, Shaki and “a South African [Guede]” who played basketball near the house.

At several points in the evening Knox is provided with refreshments. No voices are ever raised, no bathroom breaks are refused. A number of efforts are made to help Knox to keep calm.

Inspector Napoleoni and a couple of colleagues are seeking facts from Sollecito in a separate wing. Shown conflicts between what he has said and what his phone records show, Sollecito backtracks and declares that Knox made him lie. Knox is gently asked about this, and nobody reports any reaction. Knox defense lawyers in cross examination do not go there at all.

Suddenly, to the considerable surprise of all present, Knox has a yelling, head-clutching conniption (the first of several that night) when they observe a text she had denied sending, saying she would see that person later. Knox explains that it was Patrick, along with a torrent of accusations." "

It has never been answered in guilter land why she calmly proposed “a South African [Guede]” as one of these visitors to be interviewed. After all, wasn't he a key witness in her murdering Meredith?

 

[Strozzi]

. . . . evidence has shown that the whole statement is untrue. It was the invention of the Italian police and prosecutor, who, through coercive methods, altered the will and, apparently, for a time the memory of Amanda Knox.

Altered memory -
Amanda's own written words, written a few hours later in a cell - but out of the immediate (instant) presence of her police interrogators or Prosecutor Dr. Mignini - were "I confusedly remember" . . .

 

[Bill Williams]

I see Peter Quennell offering an alternative narrative, he is still around.

" "Shortly after, Ficarra suggests to Knox that if she really wants to help, she could add to the list of possible perps - men who Meredith knew and who might have visited the house.

As the defenses acknowledge during their cross-examinations of key investigators present on the night, this was merely a recap/summary, a simple checking of facts with someone who might be helpful which could have been done on a street corner. It was not a witness or suspect interrogation.

Knox eagerly agrees. So they begin on the list.

This goes slowly because of language problems, until an interpreter, Anna Donnino, arrives. In total Knox and four others (three of them women) are present. Knox builds a list of seven people and adds maps and phone numbers (in evidence) in a calm proceeding. These were the names: Peter Svizzero, Patrick, Ardak, Juve, Spiros, Shaki and “a South African [Guede]” who played basketball near the house.

At several points in the evening Knox is provided with refreshments. No voices are ever raised, no bathroom breaks are refused. A number of efforts are made to help Knox to keep calm.

Inspector Napoleoni and a couple of colleagues are seeking facts from Sollecito in a separate wing. Shown conflicts between what he has said and what his phone records show, Sollecito backtracks and declares that Knox made him lie. Knox is gently asked about this, and nobody reports any reaction. Knox defense lawyers in cross examination do not go there at all.

Suddenly, to the considerable surprise of all present, Knox has a yelling, head-clutching conniption (the first of several that night) when they observe a text she had denied sending, saying she would see that person later. Knox explains that it was Patrick, along with a torrent of accusations." "

It has never been answered in guilter land why she calmly proposed “a South African [Guede]” as one of these visitors to be interviewed. After all, wasn't he a key witness in her murdering Meredith?

PQ is, and always has been, a compleat fantasist.

The one person who offers nothing like this narrative, is John Follain. Follain was privy to the very thoughts of the key police-players at the interrogation. Aside from the claim of plenty of bathroom breaks and drowning the 20-year old foreigner in camomile tea, this bears no resemblance to anything other than an over-active imagination.

Has anyone told PQ that the ISC has cleared AK and RS of all the things this, "yelling, head-clutching conniption (sic)" was supposed to have (in guilterland) pointed to? This is said because there is little chance that PQ is now arguing for complete acceptance of the Hellmann verdicts, verdicts for all the charges.....

 

[Strozzi]

When this statement was written to be taken to be the words of Amanda Knox, the relevant words used by the Italian authorities were:

"il ragazzo Africano".
This may be translated as "the African boy", but there could be other translations of "ragazzo", as found in Google Translate:

Translations of ragazzonoun

boy

ragazzo, maschio, figlio, garzone

boyfriend

ragazzo, fidanzato, amichetto

kid

capretto, bambino, ragazzo, bimbo, marmocchio, piccino

youngster

giovanotto, giovane, ragazzo

nipper

pinza, pinzetta, ragazzo, chela

lad

ragazzo, giovanotto, giovanetto, fattorino

fellow

compagno, tipo, individuo, ragazzo, membro, socio

youth

gioventù, giovinezza, giovane, i giovani, ragazzo, adolescenza

jack

cricco, martinetto, fante, morsetto, boccino, ragazzo

Thus, the intended meaning possibly could have been "the African fellow". With no verbatim recording of the interactions, one cannot be positive what the authorities meant when they wrote "ragazzo" but it apparently is not a formal or in this case, respectful, term.

The word for "man" in Italian is "uomo".

I don't speak Italian but I do speak Portuguese and having spent a long time among Portuguese including soldiers where I frequently heard it, I can tell you that the Portuguese term "rapaz" (similar to the Italian word "ragazzo") is a term meaning "boy" and also used in Portuguese slang as "guy" referring to a teenager or young man in his early 20's.

It is the PLE's choice to use "ragazzo" and attribute it falsely, in my opinion, to Amanda. As a 20 year old white American girl, Amanda would not have referred to Lumumba, her then-37 year old employer, as boy or guy or lad or fellow or anything even a little off-color or derogatory. That is Mignini's word choice. It is his signature.

Furthermore, in referring to Patrick in the descriptive sentence allegedly attributed to her, Amanda would not then have had to state/identify/qualify/describe Lumumba as "African" or as "the African fellow". The sentence that Mignini or the police wrote is not Amanda's words. It is Mignini characterizing Lumumba as African to describe/identify him in Mignini's report falsely attributed to Amanda. Not only does Mignini need to lie better, he needs to do so consistent with his prisoneer's cultural context as he fabricates or distorts a prisoneer's statement.

Mignini's notary certification should be revoked for lying so poorly.

 

[Dan O.]

.
I still do not understand Dan. You specifically said 'Do you pay attention to any of the responses to your posts?' What posts did I make that I did not pay attention to?

In a more general sense, I do not automatically agree with the opinions people express in their posts, whether it is in response to one of my posts or not.

For example, in your reply to my first post, you state that:

"The curtain in the downstairs kitchen comes off the door when a stupid cop puts her foot through the glass window"

I do not agree with this, and I have commented on it before. In the video taken of the lady breaking into the cottage's downstair apartment (police_video_november_2_2007.mp4) at time: 6:51 to 6:54, there is a blurry view through the downstair door's window before the lady starts kicking at the window. In that view there appears to be the colored fabric of the curtain already on the floor. It compares very closely to the view at 6:57 after the window has been broken. IMO.

Cody
.

We were both wrong.

The blurry image demonstrates that there is a view through the window and therefore no curtain. I was assuming that the blur was comming from the curtain because in another view I could see that the window glass was clear. Upon closer examination I see that the window is double pane with one frosted and one clear.

Comparing the images from Nov 2 07:11 with Nov. 3 part 2 08:47 it is clear that the blurry pinkish object is the table cloth on the table. The object on the floor is much to low and to close to the door to be visible through the window at that camera angle. Moving on to index 08:57, we see that this item is actually inside the swing of the door where the door has clearly pushed most of the broken glass out of the way. It doesn't appear to be flat enough for the door to have passed over it so it must have been moved there after the door was opened. Further confirming this observation is that there does not appear to be any glass on top of it.

 

[Numbers]

I don't speak Italian but I do speak Portuguese and having spent a long time among Portuguese including soldiers where I frequently heard it, I can tell you that the Portuguese term "rapaz" (similar to the Italian word "ragazzo") is a term meaning "boy" and also used in Portuguese slang as "guy" referring to a teenager or young man in his early 20's.

It is the PLE's choice to use "ragazzo" and attribute it falsely, in my opinion, to Amanda. As a 20 year old white American girl, Amanda would not have referred to Lumumba, her then-37 year old employer, as boy or guy or lad or fellow or anything even a little off-color or derogatory. That is Mignini's word choice. It is his signature.

Furthermore, in referring to Patrick in the descriptive sentence allegedly attributed to her, Amanda would not then have had to state/identify/qualify/describe Lumumba as "African" or as "the African fellow". The sentence that Mignini or the police wrote is not Amanda's words. It is Mignini characterizing Lumumba as African to describe/identify him in Mignini's report falsely attributed to Amanda. Not only does Mignini need to lie better, he needs to do so consistent with his prisoneer's cultural context as he fabricates or distorts a prisoneer's statement.

Mignini's notary certification should be revoked for lying so poorly.

While it is an uncertain practice to attempt to relate historical events to those more current, in the fascist era Italy waged a colonial war of conquest in Ethiopia by killing hundreds of thousands of black Africans, using poison gas bombs and shells.

I am not suggesting, by pointing out a possible ambiguity in the translation of the Italian word "ragazzo", that it was Amanda's word choice, just as I do not believe she went to the police station the evening of Nov. 5, 2007 with any fear of Patrick Lumumba or any intention of naming him as Meredith's murderer or of being interrogated. She would not have any knowledge allowing her to identify specifically the person who had murdered Meredith; it was the police and Mignini who invented the scenario she was coerced to adopt during the interrogation.

 

[Grinder]

The one person who offers nothing like this narrative, is John Follain. Follain was privy to the very thoughts of the key police-players at the interrogation. Aside from the claim of plenty of bathroom breaks and drowning the 20-year old foreigner in camomile tea, this bears no resemblance to anything other than an over-active imagination.

 

[Bill Williams]

[qimg]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/no/wagging-finger-saying-no-smiley-emoticon.gif[/qimg]

LOL! It is good having Grinder back!

 

[RoseMontague]

PQ is, and always has been, a compleat fantasist.

Yes. Some things have not changed. The entire case against AK & RS has always been one of "Let's Pretend". Fortunately, that did not fly with the ISC in it's final ruling on the case. There are some that will continue living in fantasy land despite this.

 

[RoseMontague]

We were both wrong.

The blurry image demonstrates that there is a view through the window and therefore no curtain. I was assuming that the blur was comming from the curtain because in another view I could see that the window glass was clear. Upon closer examination I see that the window is double pane with one frosted and one clear.

Comparing the images from Nov 2 07:11 with Nov. 3 part 2 08:47 it is clear that the blurry pinkish object is the table cloth on the table. The object on the floor is much to low and to close to the door to be visible through the window at that camera angle. Moving on to index 08:57, we see that this item is actually inside the swing of the door where the door has clearly pushed most of the broken glass out of the way. It doesn't appear to be flat enough for the door to have passed over it so it must have been moved there after the door was opened. Further confirming this observation is that there does not appear to be any glass on top of it.

One of the many mysteries of this case is what happened downstairs. Stefanoni seemed quite eager to deflect attention from her testing of things related to this. Is there suppressed evidence that RG entered the downstairs apartment?

 

[LondonJohn]

One of the many mysteries of this case is what happened downstairs. Stefanoni seemed quite eager to deflect attention from her testing of things related to this. Is there suppressed evidence that RG entered the downstairs apartment?

There possibly is. Certainly some of the things we do know about the downstairs apartment - the blood on the light switch, the blood on the bedding - seem out of the ordinary.

We know that Kercher had the keys to the downstairs apartment because she had undertaken (kind girl as she was) to water her boyfriend's cannabis plants while he was away. We can also conclude that Guede took keys from Kercher (probably from inside her bag, or possibly from a surface inside her bedroom), since none of her keys were found subsequently - and also because Kercher's door was locked from the outside, and it's very likely that Guede would have needed the keys to open the front door of the cottage in order to exit the premises.

The other strange thing - as others have pointed out - is the ticket stub for an art exhibition in Rome (IIRC) that was found in a pair of trousers (again IIRC) in Guede's apartment. Guede was apparently not known for his art appreciation, not to mention that he was a petty criminal focussing on getting enough money to live and buy/sell drugs. On the other hand, one of the boys in the downstairs apartment was an art lover and (IIRC) had been in Rome at the time of that exhibition.

So I personally think it's possible that Guede had so much blood on his own trousers after the murder that he decided the best option was to take a pair of trousers from the downstairs apartment (obviously there would have been no suitable trousers in the girls' apartment). It's plausible that he could have had the means of entry via the keys Kercher was in possession of (the keys might even have been handily marked with Silenzi's name or the address of the boys' apartment).

And if that did happen, then I can also see how it's plausible that the police and PM might have wanted to minimise the attention paid to the boys' apartment in the context of a Knox/Sollecito/Guede group murder.

I somehow doubt we'll ever know the truth about what really did (or did not) happen wrt the boys' apartment on the night of the murder. To a degree, it's moot anyhow, since the true sole killer, Rudy Guede, has been identified and brought to justice. The only way in which it would be of benefit to know would be if it exposed corruption by the police/PM in suppressing evidence.

 

[lonepinealex]

Re: the ragazzo thing - it's possible that various things could have been lost in translation there. Amanda may have used the term "guy", which would be perfectly normal, and it may have been translated as ragazzo by the police. Or, as with "see you later", Amanda may have been unfamiliar with the Italian idioms and thought that "ragazzo" meant "guy".

 

[Strozzi]

FBI forensic lab correcting its own earlier forensic errors

The Washington Post has an article today reporting that the FBI crime lab made systematic errors in the forensic analysis of hair in almost all cases in which hair evidence was analyzed per-2000. This affected hundreds of cases which are now being reviewed. Errors likely occurred not only when FBI crime lab experts provided (often inaccurate/false) conclusions of a match, but in cases tried in state and local courts utilizing state-level crime lab experts trained incorrectly by the FBI's hair analysis unit. Four defendants convicted on the basis of inaccurate FBI crime lab hair analysis have been exonerated. Hundreds of additional cases are now being reexamined.

Noteworthy is that the FBI lab is itself correcting itself, with outside scientific review of course.

Will we see the Italian judiciary or police forensic units reform their procedural errors, or will the Italian courts look the other way so as not to embarrass state officials or reopen convictions that may be based on false police forensic work? Can any of Stefanoni's DNA collection, processing, analysis, or reporting in other criminal prosecutions be trusted?

You may see the Washington Post article at
http://wapo.st/1zvl6Gb

 

[Strozzi]

Re: the ragazzo thing - it's possible that various things could have been lost in translation there. Amanda may have used the term "guy", which would be perfectly normal, and it may have been translated as ragazzo by the police. Or, as with "see you later", Amanda may have been unfamiliar with the Italian idioms and thought that "ragazzo" meant "guy".

For these reasons it is surprising that the police in their interviews and interrogation, or Mignini in his subsequent 'passive listening/notarization of Amanda's spontaneous statement', did not want the entire conversation recorded to identify inaccuracies in language. Had she limited her participation to professional interpreting (rather than "mediating"), interpreter Anna Donnino should have wanted everything recorded for language translation quality control. But then, voice recording might have exposed some unpleasant occurrences which are probably common in police midnight interrogations.

 

[carbonjam72]

Plausibly Denied

There possibly is. Certainly some of the things we do know about the downstairs apartment - the blood on the light switch, the blood on the bedding - seem out of the ordinary.
We know that Kercher had the keys to the downstairs apartment because she had undertaken (kind girl as she was) to water her boyfriend's cannabis plants while he was away. We can also conclude that Guede took keys from Kercher (probably from inside her bag, or possibly from a surface inside her bedroom), since none of her keys were found subsequently - and also because Kercher's door was locked from the outside, and it's very likely that Guede would have needed the keys to open the front door of the cottage in order to exit the premises.

The other strange thing - as others have pointed out - is the ticket stub for an art exhibition in Rome (IIRC) that was found in a pair of trousers (again IIRC) in Guede's apartment. Guede was apparently not known for his art appreciation, not to mention that he was a petty criminal focussing on getting enough money to live and buy/sell drugs. On the other hand, one of the boys in the downstairs apartment was an art lover and (IIRC) had been in Rome at the time of that exhibition.

So I personally think it's possible that Guede had so much blood on his own trousers after the murder that he decided the best option was to take a pair of trousers from the downstairs apartment (obviously there would have been no suitable trousers in the girls' apartment). It's plausible that he could have had the means of entry via the keys Kercher was in possession of (the keys might even have been handily marked with Silenzi's name or the address of the boys' apartment).

And if that did happen, then I can also see how it's plausible that the police and PM might have wanted to minimise the attention paid to the boys' apartment in the context of a Knox/Sollecito/Guede group murder.

I somehow doubt we'll ever know the truth about what really did (or did not) happen wrt the boys' apartment on the night of the murder. To a degree, it's moot anyhow, since the true sole killer, Rudy Guede, has been identified and brought to justice. The only way in which it would be of benefit to know would be if it exposed corruption by the police/PM in suppressing evidence.

Well, the light switch blood sample did (IIRC) return a human DNA profile, as did other blood samples from downstairs.

Does that count as suppressed evidence, or does the prosecution get to decide what evidence is relevant, and therefore what evidence is "technically" being suppressed? (Oh Mach, where art thou?).

The claim of "cat's blood" has no basis in a species specific test (AFAIK), there's no basis to believe its actually true, or even a legitimate possibility. There's simply no basis for this claim, its purely unsupported speculation.

The ticket stub is a marvelous find. Was that tested for DNA?

Hellman agreed Rudy needed Meredith's keys in order to leave the apartment, due to the faulty front door lock. Meredith locked her self in with her killer. If you think about it, had the landlord kept up the repairs, maybe - maybe things might have gone differently. (Rudy could have just left without confrontation, as he had preferred to do in the past burglaries).

If there is an investigation, and all the suppressed DNA results and other data (semen stain, glass from window gets tested, fried computers examined and so forth) are turned over, then a lot of answers may be forthcoming. There may even be, "turnings on one another", and "throwings under the bus" from many quarters.

Who knows, maybe even the interrogation tapes will turn up? Maybe someone has them as a get-out-of-jail-free card? Italians really don't seem to like to do things that are overtly criminal, preferring instead the 'happy accident' that reserves 'plausible deniability'.

And, the masons may finally show their hand!