UK TV debate

[dudalb]

Surprising number of folks here have said they will vote for the green loons. The mirage of alternative party untested in government looms ever large.

In the US it's called a "Protest" vote..."We will vote for Party X despite it being totally bonkers as a protest against the big parties". Strikes me as being a very dangerous POV since occasionally the "Protest Party" actually gets into power with usually disasterous results.
To vote for a party with bat crap crazy policies simply as a protest against a party with merely stupid policies has always struck me as asking for trouble.

 

[Giz]

In the US it's called a "Protest" vote..."We will vote for Party X despite it being totally bonkers as a protest against the big parties". Strikes me as being a very dangerous POV since occasionally the "Protest Party" actually gets into power with usually disasterous results.
To vote for a party with bat crap crazy policies simply as a protest against a party with merely stupid policies has always struck me as asking for trouble.

Otherwise known as "If you refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils then don't complain when the greater evil wins"

 

[Craig B]

In the US it's called a "Protest" vote..."We will vote for Party X despite it being totally bonkers as a protest against the big parties". Strikes me as being a very dangerous POV since occasionally the "Protest Party" actually gets into power with usually disasterous results.
To vote for a party with bat crap crazy policies simply as a protest against a party with merely stupid policies has always struck me as asking for trouble.

If you think Green policies are bat crap crazy then your POV is justified; but I don't think that. I hope if there's a substantial Green vote the main parties may pay regard to some of the issues they have raised.

 

[angrysoba]

Surprising number of folks here have said they will vote for the green loons. The mirage of alternative party untested in government looms ever large.

I would certainly be surprised if someone announced they were "going to vote for the green loons". Less surprised if someone was to say they would vote for the Green Party.

Even if their political platform was not to your taste, people may vote for them because they agree with:

a) their whole manifesto
b) some of their manifesto
c) their desire to vote someone else out in a particular constituency (i.e Brighton)
b) as a protest

Of course, if the number is surprising, then it may actually make more and more sense to vote Green (for those who are persuaded by the above reasons).

 

[Craig B]

I didn't see last night's election TV debate, but Sturgeon seems to have done well. The viewer survey found that

The Labour leader came out on top in a snap poll. In a survey of 1,013 viewers conducted by Survation for the Daily Mirror, Mr Miliband 35% judged him the winner, against 31% for Ms Sturgeon, 27% for Mr Farage, 5% for Ms Bennett and 2% for Ms Wood. The Scottish part of the survey sample gave the debate to Ms Sturgeon, with 68%, to Mr Miliband's 17%.

They are rather confusing. When people were asked who “won” the debate, Ed Miliband came out on top. But, when they were asked who “performed the best”, Nicola Sturgeon won. She was on 35%, ahead of Miliband on 29% and Farage on 26%.

As the Guardian observes:

How do we make sense of that? Because, when asked who performed best, you may be making an objective judgment about technical debating skills (see 8.29pm) while, when asked who “won”, you may be making a more subjective judgment about the leader you favoured the most.

That's surely the explanation. And notice that in Scotland on that basis, Sturgeon was ahead by a huge margin.

Another remarkable result projection from the Guardian. These figures of SNP support must be exaggerated, but the polls have been very consistent over the last several months.

The latest Guardian projection has the combined Labour and SNP share of seats on 326. This is an all time high in our daily series – and more significantly, it’s a majority ... Looking at the details, Labour are projected to win 272 seats, the Tories 269 and the SNP 54 of Scotland’s 59 seats. The Lib Dems are projected to hold on to 29 constituencies.

 

[MikeG]

If you think Green policies are bat crap crazy then your POV is justified; but I don't think that.........

Borrowing 160 billion extra EACH YEAR to employ 1 million extra civil servants isn't bat-crap crazy? The pinch of salt with which to take your political views just became wheelbarrow-sized.

 

[The Don]

Borrowing 160 billion extra EACH YEAR to employ 1 million extra civil servants isn't bat-crap crazy? The pinch of salt with which to take your political views just became wheelbarrow-sized.

I've not seen this one, do you have a link please.

 

[MikeG]

From here:

Increase public spending to almost half of national income

Create one million well-paid new public sector jobs

The total public spending was given in an interview on Radio 4 by Natalie Bennett a few days ago. I can't find a link.

Let's just add this little gem:

Increase the National Minimum Wage to a living wage for all, of £10 per hour by 2020

Now, that isn't a minimum wage for those working. It is paid automatically to every single working age person in the country, whether you are working or not, whether you need it or not. It would cost 280 billion pounds per year. Now, bat **** crazy? Anyone going to argue?

 

[Francesca R]

Well the debate made Ed Miliband look good in being the only non-radical participant, but probably it was rather irrelevant and mostly a platform for the far left and far right to attack the moderate. Probably doesn't harm Cameron and may even give him a boost along the lines of being disinterested in a rabble, rather than chicken. Would have been much better to have a Miliband-Cameron face-off.

 

[Francesca R]

Anyone going to argue?

I think, in the Green Party manifesto, money grows on trees.

 

[The Don]

From here:The total public spending was given in an interview
on Radio 4 by Natalie Bennett a few days ago. I can't find a link.

Now I understand.

It's increase public spending (not borrowing although they aren't clear how they'd get the money) by £160bn a year and (not to) employ another million people in the public sector - which although, strictly speaking, they may be classified as civil servants, I think it's misleading to refer to the additional doctors, nurses, care assistants, teachers and so on as civil servants which creates an image of a pen-pusher.

Some of that £160bn may also be invested in the national infrastructure.

Whilst their policies may be bat-crap crazy, your summary of them was misleading IMO.

 

[Craig B]

Now, that isn't a minimum wage for those working. It is paid automatically to every single working age person in the country, whether you are working or not, whether you need it or not. It would cost 280 billion pounds per year. Now, bat **** crazy? Anyone going to argue?

Yes, I think I will. It seems to me that the National Minimum Wage refers to the minimum that should be paid to people at work, not to all people whether at work or not. Here is the reference to it in the GP website. My bold.

We are demanding the introduction of a 'Living Wage'. This will help ensure low paid workers earn enough to provide for themselves and their families and eradicate poverty in Britain for good. The Green Party will fight for a National Minimum Wage of 60% of net national average earnings (currently this would mean a minimum wage of £8.10 per hour).

https://www.greenparty.org.uk/policies
ETA See also this statement.

Raising the minimum wage to living wage levels would benefit an estimated 5.2 million people – 17% of the working population – and usher in a fairer society where fewer workers are trapped in poverty pay conditions.

ETA 2. See also here at page 29.

 

[Craig B]

I think, in the Green Party manifesto, money grows on trees.

I see that you're not going to argue with MikeG. I did, and so did The Don. Any comments?

 

[skeptichaggis]

Nicola told that odious creep farage to stop blaming immigrants. He won't of course as it would damage his image in the eyes of the lowest point denominater amongst the voters. Ukip voters actually seem to believe that if they get all the migrants out Britain will become Shangri la,the land of ever flowing milk and honey.
Saw a embarrassing news report today. Get this-mind now I'm being serious-the new sihk temple in Glasgow was vandalized by having the words-and I'm really not kidding- no Islam and no sharia law written on the walls. Yes children thats correct ,some(I'm surprised they worked out how to get the lid of the paint)true blue idiots went to a sihk temple and wrote anti Islam graffiti. Do these idiots think(ha) that Islam and sihkism are the same thing.
I'm against the opening of the temple just like I'm against the opening of any new religious building but I would not vandalize it.

 

[Craig B]

Saw a embarrassing news report today. Get this-mind now I'm being serious-the new sihk temple in Glasgow was vandalized by having the words-and I'm really not kidding- no Islam and no sharia law written on the walls.

Accompanied by a swastika. Fascists aren't usually very smart.

There have been several occasions both in Europe and N America where during the current Islamophobic scare (amply exhibited in this Forum) Sikhs have been mistaken for Muslims and have been attacked or had their buildings desecrated. They look different and they wear turbans so they'll do as scapegoats and targets for these cowardly morons.

 

[Information Analyst]

Borrowing 160 billion extra EACH YEAR to employ 1 million extra civil servants isn't bat-crap crazy? The pinch of salt with which to take your political views just became wheelbarrow-sized.

And I for one would welcome one of those £160k-a-year civil service posts!

 

[Information Analyst]

Let's just add this little gem:

Increase the National Minimum Wage to a living wage for all, of £10 per hour by 2020

Now, that isn't a minimum wage for those working. It is paid automatically to every single working age person in the country, whether you are working or not, whether you need it or not. It would cost 280 billion pounds per year. Now, bat **** crazy? Anyone going to argue?

Cite for high-lighted claim, please.

 

[ddt]

It's increase public spending (not borrowing although they aren't clear how they'd get the money) by £160bn a year

It does say they want to raise top income tax to 60%, and they want to raise alcohol and tobacco taxes. I have no idea how much that brings, but those are some points about bringing in more revenue.

and (not to) employ another million people in the public sector - which although, strictly speaking, they may be classified as civil servants, I think it's misleading to refer to the additional doctors, nurses, care assistants, teachers and so on as civil servants which creates an image of a pen-pusher.

You forgot train drivers. Their manifesto also says they want to re-nationalize British Rail. That's an awful lot of civil servants in one fell swoop.

 

[The Don]

It does say they want to raise top income tax to 60%, and they want to raise alcohol and tobacco taxes. I have no idea how much that brings, but those are some points about bringing in more revenue.

If the intention is to push government spending to 50% of GDP then raising the top rate of tax to 60% and increasing alcohol and tobacco taxes is only going to be a tiny fraction of that.

You forgot train drivers. Their manifesto also says they want to re-nationalize British Rail. That's an awful lot of civil servants in one fell swoop.

Good point.

Whilst I suppose all government employees can be called civil servants, the term IMO has come to mean pen pushers. Whatever you may think of the Greens' policies, their affordability and sustainability, IMO MikeG's description of them was deliberately misleading.

 

[MikeG]

.......IMO MikeG's description of them was deliberately misleading.

I'll accept that it was misleading, and apologise for that......but it wasn't deliberate. I should have said public sector workers.

Cite for high-lighted claim, please.

She's just said it again on the Radio as I sit typing this.

Go to 4:30 of this interview and hear it from her own mouth.