Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

if Rudi were to get a new trial or some sort of review, who would the prosecutor be? Mignini? Comodi?

 

[moije2]

Ths is why Mignini had Raffaele imprisoned in solitary confinement for six months upon arrest while awaiting trial. It was to mess up (weaken) Raffaele psychologically enough to force him to cave and turn on Amanda so Mignini could secure the American girl's conviction and be the hero-prosecutor when he badly needed to rehabilitate his reputation among the judiciary and be righteous defender of Perugia to his hometown audience.

I hope this is an issue that can still be heard by the ECHR. Perhaps it is a form of torture - different from broken bones but designed to psychologically break the uncooperative co-defendant/witness. Italy needs to be kicked in the teeth over this.

I know that the issue of solitary confinement for Raffaele was discussed somewhat in the past. But I don't remember detailed exploration of the legal basis upon which that was ordered. Was it in fact at the result of a request by Mignini? It would seem that if a defendant is being held in precautionary detention, that such an order or request by a prosecutor would be excessive in the amount of power that they should have. What legal basis could that have been? And on that note, why Raffaele and not Amanda? What was different about their situations? It is easy to speculate that this power was being used to coerce Raffale as you suggest. And not for some legitimate purpose. otherwise, the application of the concept of innocent until proven guilty is being trampled on. The prosecutor in effect, if he has the authority to do this, has unilaterally determined part of the punishment. Where is the due process there? ECHR issue?

 

[RoseMontague]

if Rudi were to get a new trial or some sort of review, who would the prosecutor be? Mignini? Comodi?

Neither of them care about Guede. The focus was always on Amanda.

 

[Grinder]

Neither of them care about Guede. The focus was always on Amanda.

Yes but who would make state's case.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes but who would make state's case.

Well certainly not Mignini, in his new role he no longer tries cases or leads investigations. Maybe Commodi, but wouldn't that be a conflict of interest?

Maybe it would get kicked to Florence?

But I don't see Rudy being entitled to another trial no matter what. (for reasons LJ outlined in a post a bit upthread.)

 

[komponisto]

Never a "separation strategy"

At the risk of piling-on.....

PGP (who are now completely irrelevant) never were much for admitting mistakes. The PR-guilt lobby was all about throwing allegations at two innocents, hoping one would stick. It's never a mistake to just invent stuff to be hurled at two innocents, when the point is to hope one sticks.

The separation strategy Bongiorno/Sollecito conjured up was this: "Ok, you're using that factoid-evidence to condemn Amanda. What, then, does it have to do with me even if it is not a factoid?"

The genius of that strategy was, far from throwing Knox under a bus, it showed the ludicrousness of the evidence against **them both**.

Indeed, there never was any "separation strategy" at all except in the imaginations of commentators. The "separation strategy" myth derives from nothing more than Bongiorno and Maori's critique of Nencini's guilt-by-association reasoning.

 

[Bill Williams]

Indeed, there never was any "separation strategy" at all except in the imaginations of commentators. The "separation strategy" myth derives from nothing more than Bongiorno and Maori's critique of Nencini's guilt-by-association reasoning.

..... which brings up a question: who coined the term, "separation strategy"?

Some media who didn't "get it" viewed it as Raffaele distancing himself from Knox. When one reads both Raffaele's main appeals document, and the amendment, the concept is clear - and judging by results very favourable to both the innocents.

I cannot imagine that "separation strategy" is a term from Bongiorno. Did it come from the press conference way back when?

 

[Strozzi]

It does seem the PTB needed little help in making a mess of things. I don't know if we will ever see the complete test results including the raw data from Stefi. That's a shame, in my opinion. Will anybody come forward and talk about the lamp? The interrogation, is there a tape out there? Many things the ILE did will probably never see the light of day.

This is why I advocate that a media corporation or attorney for the defendants announce a reward for information. The purpose is to incentivize people in secondary and support roles who have inside info to come forward. Once such a reward is publicly announced, noddy involved will trust for certain that others are not talking.

 

[Strozzi]

I know that the issue of solitary confinement for Raffaele was discussed somewhat in the past. But I don't remember detailed exploration of the legal basis upon which that was ordered. Was it in fact at the result of a request by Mignini? It would seem that if a defendant is being held in precautionary detention, that such an order or request by a prosecutor would be excessive in the amount of power that they should have. What legal basis could that have been? And on that note, why Raffaele and not Amanda? What was different about their situations? It is easy to speculate that this power was being used to coerce Raffale as you suggest. And not for some legitimate purpose. otherwise, the application of the concept of innocent until proven guilty is being trampled on. The prosecutor in effect, if he has the authority to do this, has unilaterally determined part of the punishment. Where is the due process there? ECHR issue?

I believe Raffaele was put in solitary for six months to break down his resistance so he would be pliable. The prosecution could do that to try to force Raffaele to separate himself from Amanda. They could not try to force Amanda to separate from herself, so the purpose for which it was applied to Raffaele would not work on Amanda and she was therefore not put is solitary.

I do not know the legal basis behing holding a defendant in solitary confinrpement, but it appears that since they were the subjects of on-going investigations the prosecutor could formally or informally task prison management to do certain things with the detainees: tap their conversations with attorneys and parents, place them with stool pigeons who will report on each defendant, restrict their access to news or communications, give Amanda falsified HIV results by a white-coat-wearing "doctor", urge her to write down the names of all her partners and then release it to the media, confiscate and release to the media her prison diary.

 

[Strozzi]

Neither of them care about Guede. The focus was always on Amanda.

Mignini must still have an interest in managing anything that is done to Guede, as Rudy could talk and reveal anything favorable that Mignini did for him. It is all about damage control. Mignini doesn't care about Guede, he does care if Guede says something that could damage Mignini.

 

[moije2]

I believe Raffaele was put in solitary for six months to break down his resistance so he would be pliable. The prosecution could do that to try to force Raffaele to separate himself from Amanda. They could not try to force Amanda to separate from herself, so the purpose for which it was applied to Raffaele would not work on Amanda and she was therefore not put is solitary.

Interesting idea. They pick and choose prison treatment all as part of their investigative scheme. The prison becomes their tool. For certain prosecutors the arguments advanced at pre-trial hearig regarding detention would have a known purpose of serving these ends. Preventing escape from jurisdiction, tampering with evidence and such woud be the veneer applied. ​

I do not know the legal basis behing holding a defendant in solitary confinrpement, but it appears that since they were the subjects of on-going investigations the prosecutor could formally or informally task prison management to do certain things with the detainees: tap their conversations with attorneys and parents, place them with stool pigeons who will report on each defendant, restrict their access to news or communications, give Amanda falsified HIV results by a white-coat-wearing "doctor", urge her to write down the names of all her partners and then release it to the media, confiscate and release to the media her prison diary.

I would like to know how that worked. Did Mignini make a request before the court and have it decided on by which ever judge it was? On what basis was the request made? It would seem that there should be a record of that somewhere. Perhaps it is somewhere in the documents on line. I will try to chase that down because I am actually surprised more thought and discussion was not given to this before. At least by myself. Certainly, with the recent discussion re human rights violations, isolation for 6 months is extreme and even if the statutory ground were met (on the surface) such solitary confinement for so long would have to constitute some violation of human rights. Surely. If there is any meaning to innocent until proven guilty.


SORRY about the formatting! Typing on a little tablet!

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Well certainly not Mignini, in his new role he no longer tries cases or leads investigations. Maybe Commodi, but wouldn't that be a conflict of interest?

Maybe it would get kicked to Florence?

But I don't see Rudy being entitled to another trial no matter what. (for reasons LJ outlined in a post a bit upthread.)

Could they tack on defamation of Knox and Sollecito the way they convicted Knox of defaming Lumumba?

Not that they would bother, but it is a shame Guede got such a light sentence by US standards.

 

[Samson]

Could they tack on defamation of Knox and Sollecito the way they convicted Knox of defaming Lumumba?

Not that they would bother, but it is a shame Guede got such a light sentence by US standards.

How would he be doing in Texas? (or Florida)?

 

[platonov]

What do you think is more likely?

Well the likelihood of one of the options is 0 [ in the real world – in cartwheel world who knows, given the time travel/mindwipe stuff ] so the ECHR thing is slightly more likely.
However it is less likely than my winning the lottery [jackpot] this weekend. And that’s after my not buying a lottery ticket is factored in.


But why did this Cassation panel overturn the murder convictions of RS [and AK] ?
Perhaps they were filled with the same sense of Justice that inspired the baby killer Alessi to give evidence favourable to RS & AK.

That seems the most likely as things stand.

 

[Samson]

Well the likelihood of one of the options is 0 [ in the real world – in cartwheel world who knows, given the time travel/mindwipe stuff ] so the ECHR thing is slightly more likely.
However it is less likely than my winning the lottery [jackpot] this weekend. And that’s after my not buying a lottery ticket is factored in.


But why did this Cassation panel overturn the murder convictions of RS [and AK] ?
Perhaps they were filled with the same sense of Justice that inspired the baby killer Alessi to give evidence favourable to RS & AK.

That seems the most likely as things stand.

platonov, I am pleased that you are employing principles of modal logic to ascribe possibilities. I see a way forward.
Are you suggesting that Cassation found a real world solution to the case that has a truth value of zero?

 

[carbonjam72]

Could they tack on defamation of Knox and Sollecito the way they convicted Knox of defaming Lumumba?

Not that they would bother, but it is a shame Guede got such a light sentence by US standards.

I'm actually surprised that this isn't/hasn't/won't be happening.

How Rudy's "testimony" shifted from 'Amanda was there' - to - 'I saw her out of the window from the room I didn't break into'. (By the way, if that's Rudy's story, was the window already broken when he saw Amanda outside?)

I would expect charges to flow from Rudy's transition, and in my dreamworld that would ensnare Mignini. Which is really where those charges belong. Mignini knowingly laid false charges against Amanda and Raf. That's what happened. That's the truth. And everyone involved owns a piece of that crime.

BUt what I've learned, not from this case and not to be cynical, but the truly guilty like Mignini are rarely punished, and when they are, its never for their true crimes.

 

[toto]

Well the likelihood of one of the options is 0 [ in the real world – in cartwheel world who knows, given the time travel/mindwipe stuff ] so the ECHR thing is slightly more likely.
However it is less likely than my winning the lottery [jackpot] this weekend. And that’s after my not buying a lottery ticket is factored in.


But why did this Cassation panel overturn the murder convictions of RS [and AK] ?
Perhaps they were filled with the same sense of Justice that inspired the baby killer Alessi to give evidence favourable to RS & AK.

That seems the most likely as things stand.

And what sense of justice would that be?

 

[LondonJohn]

Well the likelihood of one of the options is 0 [ in the real world – in cartwheel world who knows, given the time travel/mindwipe stuff ] so the ECHR thing is slightly more likely.
However it is less likely than my winning the lottery [jackpot] this weekend. And that’s after my not buying a lottery ticket is factored in.


But why did this Cassation panel overturn the murder convictions of RS [and AK] ?
Perhaps they were filled with the same sense of Justice that inspired the baby killer Alessi to give evidence favourable to RS & AK.

That seems the most likely as things stand.

Oh, but I'd say that Guede's use of the small hammer was, in a very unreal sense, speculatively abhorrent when juxtaposed against the chances of rain in Gaborone this afternoon. In other words, more or less on a par (or not) with the chances of a certain prosecutor being a vindictive religious-fanatic bigot. Or, for that matter, roughly equidistant (on the y-axis, at least) with a pro-guilt commentator understanding that the crime was committed by one person, acting alone. Maybe a few furlongs short. What do you think, platonov?

 

[JREF2010]

Well the likelihood of one of the options is 0 [ in the real world – in cartwheel world who knows, given the time travel/mindwipe stuff ] so the ECHR thing is slightly more likely.
However it is less likely than my winning the lottery [jackpot] this weekend. And that’s after my not buying a lottery ticket is factored in.


But why did this Cassation panel overturn the murder convictions of RS [and AK] ?
Perhaps they were filled with the same sense of Justice that inspired the baby killer Alessi to give evidence favourable to RS & AK.

That seems the most likely as things stand.

It wasnt just Alessii, there were others...right?
But theres no evidence of others, unless the bumbling squad missed that too, in addition to frying hardrives not testing a semen stain near the body, in a rape murder case, and being unable to correctly count circles on the bottom of a tennis shoe.

Rudy should go up for more charges, it would keep him in prison longer as is the right thing to do for the Kerchers, and for Meredith.

Rape, burglary, in addition to Rudy now very very likely to be given the charges of blaming his murder on others.

Today it seems the only way Rudy will tell the complete truth is if you give him a million dollars, and release all charges of him and buy him a Ferrari....then I think Rudy the rapist, murderer, thief, would tell the truth.

Its really too bad the Bumbling Squad of Perugia messed this case up so badly.

Maybe more time, in the penthouse for murderers, and rapists Rudy will come clean?

Or what if hes telling the partial truth, and Alessi (the child killer) in the prison yard Rudy (the rapist/murderer/thief/liar) tale is correct?

For me, the Prison yard story seems more believable than Rudy blaming it on Amanda and Raffaele. But theres no evidence of others involved so its probably lying in the courtyard, working on his lie skill.....the skill of blaming others for his crime.

Rudys is possibly a habitual, obsessive liar in addition to being a rapist, murder, and thief.

Maybe Edgardo Giobbi can look at some pictures and videos and tell who was with Rudy.? lol

 

[Bill Williams]

It wasnt just Alessii, there were others...right?
But theres no evidence of others, unless the bumbling squad missed that too, in addition to frying hardrives not testing a semen stain near the body, in a rape murder case, and being unable to correctly count circles on the bottom of a tennis shoe.

Rudy should go up for more charges, it would keep him in prison longer as is the right thing to do for the Kerchers, and for Meredith.

Rape, burglary, in addition to Rudy now very very likely to be given the charges of blaming his murder on others.

Today it seems the only way Rudy will tell the complete truth is if you give him a million dollars, and release all charges of him and buy him a Ferrari....then I think Rudy the rapist, murderer, thief, would tell the truth.

Its really too bad the Bumbling Squad of Perugia messed this case up so badly.

Maybe more time, in the penthouse for murderers, and rapists Rudy will come clean?

Or what if hes telling the partial truth, and Alessi (the child killer) in the prison yard Rudy (the rapist/murderer/thief/liar) tale is correct?

For me, the Prison yard story seems more believable than Rudy blaming it on Amanda and Raffaele. But theres no evidence of others involved so its probably lying in the courtyard, working on his lie skill.....the skill of blaming others for his crime.

Rudys is possibly a habitual, obsessive liar in addition to being a rapist, murder, and thief.

Maybe Edgardo Giobbi can look at some pictures and videos and tell who was with Rudy.? lol

Rudy will go the way of many who present a clear and present danger to established authority.