Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Samson]

I think Sollecito was lucky. He was lucky because Guede kept the shoe box of the trainers he wore at the time. He was lucky that his family had the resources to find a matching shoe, and to employ a forensic expert to demonstrate and justify that the shoe print did not fit Sollecito's trainers but did the trainer's from the box found in Guede's room. I think the print specialist's did not expect to be challenged. I think they looked for evidence against Sollecito and Knox and they saw what they wanted to see. They had no interest in looking carefully to exclude Sollecito's shoes from making the print.

As has been said when the police found this evidence had been disproved they hurriedly went out to find more with the second sweep of the flat when they 'found' the missing bra fastener.

Luck had a seven and a half year siesta.
Your point is very important nevertheless.

 

[Strozzi]

The only point of lying about the shoe print, was if they never thought it would make trial. The only way it would not make trial is if Raffaele threw Amanda under a bus.
........ or, if Raffaele called their bluff and said to himself, "What do I have to do with ANY of this?" And then decided simply to tell the truth for as long as he needed to before the Italian judiciary threw in the towel. Then they'd have to drop the shoe and go back to get DNA evidence from an unsealed room.

Ths is why Mignini had Raffaele imprisoned in solitary confinement for six months upon arrest while awaiting trial. It was to mess up (weaken) Raffaele psychologically enough to force him to cave and turn on Amanda so Mignini could secure the American girl's conviction and be the hero-prosecutor when he badly needed to rehabilitate his reputation among the judiciary and be righteous defender of Perugia to his hometown audience.

I hope this is an issue that can still be heard by the ECHR. Perhaps it is a form of torture - different from broken bones but designed to psychologically break the uncooperative co-defendant/witness. Italy needs to be kicked in the teeth over this.

 

[Antony]

Ths is why Mignini had Raffaele imprisoned in solitary confinement for six months upon arrest while awaiting trial. It was to mess up (weaken) Raffaele psychologically enough to force him to cave and turn on Amanda so Mignini could secure the American girl's conviction and be the hero-prosecutor when he badly needed to rehabilitate his reputation among the judiciary and be righteous defender of Perugia to his hometown audience.

I hope this is an issue that can still be heard by the ECHR. Perhaps it is a form of torture - different from broken bones but designed to psychologically break the uncooperative co-defendant/witness. Italy needs to be kicked in the teeth over this.

The irony is that in spite of the complete failure of their strategy, their mouthpieces among the hate-cult constantly refer to Raffaele allegedly "throwing Amanda under the bus".

 

[lonepinealex]

The irony is that in spite of the complete failure of their strategy, their mouthpieces among the hate-cult constantly refer to Raffaele allegedly "throwing Amanda under the bus".

They did, but I haven't seen anyone mention Raff's supposed betrayal since... oh, a week last Friday!

platonov - are we still supposed to be watching this space for Raff's dramatic volte face?

 

[Bill Williams]

The irony is that in spite of the complete failure of their strategy, their mouthpieces among the hate-cult constantly refer to Raffaele allegedly "throwing Amanda under the bus".

They did, but I haven't seen anyone mention Raff's supposed betrayal since... oh, a week last Friday!

platonov - are we still supposed to be watching this space for Raff's dramatic volte face?

At the risk of piling-on.....

PGP (who are now completely irrelevant) never were much for admitting mistakes. The PR-guilt lobby was all about throwing allegations at two innocents, hoping one would stick. It's never a mistake to just invent stuff to be hurled at two innocents, when the point is to hope one sticks.

The separation strategy Bongiorno/Sollecito conjured up was this: "Ok, you're using that factoid-evidence to condemn Amanda. What, then, does it have to do with me even if it is not a factoid?"

The genius of that strategy was, far from throwing Knox under a bus, it showed the ludicrousness of the evidence against **them both**. Take Raffaele out of the prosecution and what is left? Amanda being coached by translator/mediator/diplomat Anna Doninno to name Lumumba?

The last hope of the PR-guilt lobby (which you still see in comments sections of the post-exoneration coverage in the press) is that Raffaele somehow turned on Amanda. I'm half-expecting mixed-blood, or sex-on-a-train to make a comeback.

How'd that work out? Last I saw Raffaele was getting his passport back and preparing for the rest of his life after 7 1/2 years were stolen. Ditto Amanda.

 

[Grinder]

At the risk of piling-on.....

PGP (who are now completely irrelevant) never were much for admitting mistakes. The PR-guilt lobby was all about throwing allegations at two innocents, hoping one would stick. It's never a mistake to just invent stuff to be hurled at two innocents, when the point is to hope one sticks.

The separation strategy Bongiorno/Sollecito conjured up was this: "Ok, you're using that factoid-evidence to condemn Amanda. What, then, does it have to do with me even if it is not a factoid?"

The genius of that strategy was, far from throwing Knox under a bus, it showed the ludicrousness of the evidence against **them both**. Take Raffaele out of the prosecution and what is left? Amanda being coached by translator/mediator/diplomat Anna Doninno to name Lumumba?

The last hope of the PR-guilt lobby (which you still see in comments sections of the post-exoneration coverage in the press) is that Raffaele somehow turned on Amanda. I'm half-expecting mixed-blood, or sex-on-a-train to make a comeback.

How'd that work out? Last I saw Raffaele was getting his passport back and preparing for the rest of his life after 7 1/2 years were stolen. Ditto Amanda.

Besides bashing Anne B for her DUI years ago and publishing 2 year old missives critical of some of the Kerchers the PGP now are writing true crime scripts

RG was beaten up days before the appeal of RS - his original tapestry. RGs father certainly associated with criminals inside and outside prison. RGs father got character witnesses to speak up against RG, one of who was in the same jail for beating a 2 year old to death with a shovel. RG wasn't going to speak again while inside. RG when he is out must track down acquaintances, reconstruct events & write down the whole scenario. That would secure his financial future. Imagine a reconstruction, a TV documentary - it would be extremely interesting. RG and Kokomani relaxedly strolling down from the cottage to the gate, around the gate and up the road back towards the cottage. Pointing at things, stopping now and again & discussing things with attendant journalist. Strolling up to the traffic lights and looking back. RG and Kokomani could relate the nature of the banging / shouts of alarm from the house, before AK went back to that house carrying her 32cm kitchen knife, the one which Kokomani identified in court. The one which incidently I still think is from the cottage, not from the apartment of RS. It would be very interesting & would sell many books/programs. Kokomani, who has already relaxedly related his tale on TV would, I think, be very keen to get together with RG for that. Also to put the record straight. Big complex tale. Random encounter there's was initially. May be many other players about, may be many other witnesses still around. RG could find them all, sort this puzzle out once and for all. It would be far far more interesting than fabricated publications of characters who were there, but who can't speak the truth. Shallow books. "If I did it" was a cash in - that fame (greed), that notoriety. RS revels in that, but he can't speak of the facts. Awaiting the big RG blockbuster. I will certainly buy it.​

 

[Kaosium]

The most evident suspect centered investigation was the print analysis. People comment on Stefanoni, but the print specialists were worse. Reporting the footprints as compatible with Sollecito's shoes when they were not was either gross incompetence or lying.

This is actually quite interesting. They originally had a shoe-print analysis done by a local police force (Foligno) and the best they could say was (essentially) that it was theoretically possible that it was Raffaele's shoe print. Mignini wasn't satisfied with that so before he took the case to Matteini he had the Polizia Scientifica gin up a report that made it sound more probable ('clear compatibility') that it was Raffaele's shoe print. It's referenced on page 75-76 of "Honor Bound" and the later one is referred to in Matteini.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no colorable reason for solitary

Ths is why Mignini had Raffaele imprisoned in solitary confinement for six months upon arrest while awaiting trial. It was to mess up (weaken) Raffaele psychologically enough to force him to cave and turn on Amanda so Mignini could secure the American girl's conviction and be the hero-prosecutor when he badly needed to rehabilitate his reputation among the judiciary and be righteous defender of Perugia to his hometown audience.

I hope this is an issue that can still be heard by the ECHR. Perhaps it is a form of torture - different from broken bones but designed to psychologically break the uncooperative co-defendant/witness. Italy needs to be kicked in the teeth over this.

This is an important point. I don't support solitary confinement for convicted felons, unless the circumstances are so extreme as to mandate it. But Raffaele had not yet even been in front of Micheli at this point. IIUC it was Micheli's decision to send AK and RS to trial. Therefore, there can be no doubt that Raffaele was legally under the presumption of innocence at this point. I cannot imagine any good reason why he should have been in solitary. Every justice system has things in need of fixing; IMO this is one area where Italy's system could stand reform.

 

[Kaosium]

Yea, it’s ‘possible’
It’s also ‘possible’ that my phone isn’t ringing right now because the ghost of Timoshenko and Krystyna Feldmai are both dialing simultaneously & thus tying up the line while Holly Hunter is trying to get through.

Just not very likely.

What do you think is more likely?

 

[Numbers]

This is an important point. I don't support solitary confinement for convicted felons, unless the circumstances are so extreme as to mandate it. But Raffaele had not yet even been in front of Micheli at this point. IIUC it was Micheli's decision to send AK and RS to trial. Therefore, there can be no doubt that Raffaele was legally under the presumption of innocence at this point. I cannot imagine any good reason why he should have been in solitary. Every justice system has things in need of fixing; IMO this is one area where Italy's system could stand reform.

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Constitution of the Italian Republic
Source: www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/.
Art. 27
Criminal responsibility is personal.
A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed.Punishments may not be inhuman and shall aim at re-educating the convicted.
Death penalty is prohibited (1).

{Highlighting added.}

Not only was Raffaele to be presumed innocent at that time, he was to be presumed innocent up until a final judgment. And the final judgment is that he is innocent.

Likewise, Amanda was to be presumed innocent until final judgment. She was finally convicted (wrongfully) of calunnia. She has been judged finally as innocent of the murder/rape charges.

IIUC, the two were in prison under precautionary detention, each for nearly four years. Amanda's final sentencing for calunnia, recently reconfirmed by the CSC 5th Section in their annulment of the Nencini conviction for aggravated calunnia, converted three of those years to a sentence for calunnia.

Amanda lodged a claim alleging violation of Convention rights against Italy with the ECHR regarding the calunnia conviction in November, 2013. The application is apparently still in queue.

 

[Samson]

Theater of the absurd.

Only this case could drive the headline

If Amanda Knox Is Innocent, Then Is Rudy Guede Innocent Too?

It is not worth posting a link, but it exists. The idea that someone could write it will have modal logicians falling about laughing.

 

[carbonjam72]

Theater of the absurd.

Only this case could drive the headline

If Amanda Knox Is Innocent, Then Is Rudy Guede Innocent Too?

It is not worth posting a link, but it exists. The idea that someone could write it will have modal logicians falling about laughing.

I think its the work of Chelsea Hoffman? IS that her name? Piece of work.

 

[Grinder]

Yes LCN DNA that required extra amplifications is just the same as non LCN. Finding a hand print is the same as finding no hand print or any print. A shoe print that matches a shoe from a box found is the same as no shoe print. Admitting being at the cottage during the murder when talking with a friend is the same as being interrogated by the police helped by a translator's own repressed memory experience and shortly thereafter disavowing the statements. Running to Germany is the same as staying in Perugia. Having a history of B&E is the same as not having a history of B&E.

I wished the PGP would make a timeline case rather than the blather about the lies etc. etc.

 

[Planigale]

This is actually quite interesting. They originally had a shoe-print analysis done by a local police force (Foligno) and the best they could say was (essentially) that it was theoretically possible that it was Raffaele's shoe print. Mignini wasn't satisfied with that so before he took the case to Matteini he had the Polizia Scientifica gin up a report that made it sound more probable ('clear compatibility') that it was Raffaele's shoe print. It's referenced on page 75-76 of "Honor Bound" and the later one is referred to in Matteini.

I think it is worth recalling how critical the print evidence was. As originally presented by the prosecution there were bloody shoeprints of Sollecito in MK's bedroom. There was the bloody handprint of Guede. There was the bloody shoe print of Knox. This was the physical evidence placing all three at the scene and time of the crime. This was the evidence used to justify the pre-trial detention of all three. It was only as the print evidence collapsed that the DNA evidence had to come into play.

Even more than the DNA evidence the print evidence was created to meet the prosecution's need for evidence. While I may argue that police investigation should be evidence led; this can only be effective if the evidence is not prosecution led.

 

[Bill Williams]

{Highlighting added to quote.}

Constitution of the Italian Republic
Source: www.senato.it/documenti/repository/istituzione/.
Art. 27
Criminal responsibility is personal.
A defendant shall be considered not guilty until a final sentence has been passed.Punishments may not be inhuman and shall aim at re-educating the convicted.
Death penalty is prohibited (1).

{Highlighting added.}

Not only was Raffaele to be presumed innocent at that time, he was to be presumed innocent up until a final judgment. And the final judgment is that he is innocent.

Likewise, Amanda was to be presumed innocent until final judgment. She was finally convicted (wrongfully) of calunnia. She has been judged finally as innocent of the murder/rape charges.

IIUC, the two were in prison under precautionary detention, each for nearly four years. Amanda's final sentencing for calunnia, recently reconfirmed by the CSC 5th Section in their annulment of the Nencini conviction for aggravated calunnia, converted three of those years to a sentence for calunnia.

Amanda lodged a claim alleging violation of Convention rights against Italy with the ECHR regarding the calunnia conviction in November, 2013. The application is apparently still in queue.

Yes, they were imprisoned under precautionary detention. Of the three reasons Italy could do this, it was probably the "flight-risk" part of it which Italy found persuasive. This is even in the knowledge that Knox's lawyers early on argued for some sort of "house arrest" being adequate enough.

There simply was no way that either Knox or Sollecito could have "tampered with evidence" (given that there was no evidence, really, tying them to the crime) or that the could have "reoffended". Their backgrounds (as well as the way they were eventually described in even the Massei report) does not describe habitual offenders. Profiler John Douglas in the US has written about this, too.

It is unclear if the precautionary detention will be part of some legal claim in the future. However, if Italy is wise, they would simply pay-out both the acquitted, with the usual rider; "The payee agrees not to disclose the amount of the settlement." And then everyone forgets.

I also hope the Kerchers start some sort of action against Italy. Against their lawyer Maresca as well.

 

[Strozzi]

Yes, they were imprisoned under precautionary detention. Of the three reasons Italy could do this, it was probably the "flight-risk" part of it which Italy found persuasive. This is even in the knowledge that Knox's lawyers early on argued for some sort of "house arrest" being adequate enough.

There simply was no way that either Knox or Sollecito could have "tampered with evidence" (given that there was no evidence, really, tying them to the crime) or that the could have "reoffended". Their backgrounds (as well as the way they were eventually described in even the Massei report) does not describe habitual offenders. Profiler John Douglas in the US has written about this, too.

It is unclear if the precautionary detention will be part of some legal claim in the future. However, if Italy is wise, they would simply pay-out both the acquitted, with the usual rider; "The payee agrees not to disclose the amount of the settlement." And then everyone forgets.

I also hope the Kerchers start some sort of action against Italy. Against their lawyer Maresca as well.

What would Knox and Sollecito have done to destroy evidence? Fry their computers? Kick the bra clasp under the rug? Not collect video recordings from various stores along the street that they would have passed had they walked from Soloecito's flat to Knox's cottage on the evening of Nov. 1 or morning of Nov. 2?

 

[Grinder]

if Rudi were to get a new trial or some sort of review, who would the prosecutor be? Mignini? Comodi?

 

[RoseMontague]

What would Knox and Sollecito have done to destroy evidence? Fry their computers? Kick the bra clasp under the rug? Not collect video recordings from various stores along the street that they would have passed had they walked from Soloecito's flat to Knox's cottage on the evening of Nov. 1 or morning of Nov. 2?

It does seem the PTB needed little help in making a mess of things. I don't know if we will ever see the complete test results including the raw data from Stefi. That's a shame, in my opinion. Will anybody come forward and talk about the lamp? The interrogation, is there a tape out there? Many things the ILE did will probably never see the light of day.

 

[analemma]

I think its the work of Chelsea Hoffman? IS that her name? Piece of work.

You can tell her work by the stench of the headline
I am getting pretty good at avoiding them

 

[Chris_Halkides]

good point

What would Knox and Sollecito have done to destroy evidence? Fry their computers? Kick the bra clasp under the rug? Not collect video recordings from various stores along the street that they would have passed had they walked from Soloecito's flat to Knox's cottage on the evening of Nov. 1 or morning of Nov. 2?

Your statement succinctly summarizes the speciousness of using precautionary detention.