Merged A new argument pro Near Death Experiences

[MaartenVergu]

I have a new argument pro NDE's:

According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the tunnel, the light, the peaceful feeling, the words 'it's not your time yet' etcetera.
The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes etc. All must be involved.

Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences.

To have an OBE, to see the tunnel, then the light, then the words: 'it's not your time yet' assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the dying brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.

It's also about the ontological status of 'the Light' and 'the Tunnel' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You do know this is not only explicable as people fill in their own blanks with what they know, NDEs in other cultures match their own cultural expectations.

Phenomenology of Near-death Experiences: A Cross-cultural Perspective

We compared the various descriptions of NDEs from a phenomenological perspective. There were similarities between particular cultures, which differed from typical western European experiences.

They do hypothesize it's all in the translation.

The variability across cultures is most likely to be due to our interpretation and verbalizing of such esoteric events through the filters of language, cultural experiences, religion, education and their influence on our belief systems either shedding influence as an individual variable or more often perhaps by their rich interplay between these factors.

But it still suggests the physical experience is similar, but the interpretation of what one sees and experiences changes depending on one's pre-existing cultural expectations.

I doubt you'd find, "it's not your time yet" the same across cultures.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Yes, but 'the light', 'the OBE', the tunnel and the lifereview are very common.
in terms of probability: The probability of that happening (this specific sequence of patterns of electric activity in the brain when different parts are involved)
purely by chance is less than one in a billion.

(when you count the amount of neurons and the probability of exactly these patterns of electric activity in the brains of hundreds of people).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't think you have a good understanding of the neurobiology of the brain. The tunnel and light are physiological processes. The people one sees and things one hears are from one's memory, like dreaming, but with similar patterns of people's memories.

If you fall asleep with the TV on, you sometimes fit the audio into what you are dreaming. I've found that many times. One strong memory I have from childhood was dreaming I was approaching a barn door with something scratching on the other side of the door. I woke up and my dog was scratching on my bedroom door to come in and sleep on my bed until I got up.

People's dreams sometimes work to make sense of stimuli it continues to receive. If you see a tunnel of light, given circumstances that likely caused the event, it makes logical sense people would interpret the light as heaven and dream about things and people they expect to be there.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Maybe you know more about the brain then me. But different regions must be involved when this NDE is happening. Occipital lobes, verbal cortex, etc.

The brain must fire a specific network of neurons. So, it's a whole sequence of firing networks. The chances are low that it is almost exaclty this sequence of networks.

 

[The Norseman]

Yes, but 'the light', 'the OBE', the tunnel and the lifereview are very common.
in terms of probability: The probability of that happening (this specific sequence of patterns of electric activity in the brain when different parts are involved)
purely by chance is less than one in a billion.
(when you count the amount of neurons and the probability of exactly these patterns of electric activity in the brains of hundreds of people).

Please show your work. How did you arrive at this number? Also, please define what you mean by "purely by chance".


ETA: Also, let's say that this probability will happen one in a billion -- with seven billion people on the planet, wouldn't this mean that your rare occurrence happened seven times?

 

[MaartenVergu]

No, I have no 'work', The Norseman. But I studied something about the brain. i know that different parts of the brain must be involved for such complex experiences like NDE's, according to modern neuroscience.

Hundreds of people have the same sequence of combinations of networks firing during an NDE? This is statistically improbable that they all experience an OBE, a tunnel, a light, this peaceful feeling, the words: it's not your time yet etc. This sequence of experiences is a specific sequence of firing networks in the brain. This is statistically improbable that all these people have almost exactly the same sequence of combinated patterns of firing networks in their brains.

 

[turingtest]

No, I have no 'work', The Norseman. But I studied something about the brain. i know that different parts of the brain must be involved for such complex experiences like NDE's, according to modern neuroscience.

Hundreds of people have the same sequence of combinations of networks firing during an NDE? This is statistically improbable that they all experience an OBE, a tunnel, a light, this peaceful feeling, the words: it's not your time yet etc. This sequence of experiences is a specific sequence of firing networks in the brain. This is statistically improbable that all these people have almost exactly the same sequence of combinated patterns of firing networks in their brains.

You also have no new argument; this is basically still the same one you used before, based on incredulity that so many people who have NDEs have the same vague experiences- your "tunnel of light" and so forth- that are adequately explained by shared expectations. The only difference here is that you've focused your incredulity a little more sharply on the brain, which you don't seem really qualified to dissect. And by doing that, you've really only undermined your own basic argument that there must be some commonality outside the brain to account for NDEs; after all, what's so incredible about the same basic brain structure in all humans undergoing the same process (of death) having occasionally similar results? Hundreds of people out of billions is statistical noise, not signal. Surely the extra-human commonality you seek would produce more than noise?

 

[MaartenVergu]

You also have no new argument; this is basically still the same one you used before, based on incredulity that so many people who have NDEs have the same vague experiences-

I disagree here. Most NDE's are very specific. The OBE, the tunnel, the light, the words: it's not your time yet. That's very specific.

your "tunnel of light" and so forth- that are adequately explained by shared expectations.

When you are unconscious, you have no expectations. There are a lot of witnesses from atheists on the internet who had no such expectations at all and experienced the very specific events of an NDE.

The only difference here is that you've focused your incredulity a little more sharply on the brain, which you don't seem really qualified to dissect.

What has my 'qualification' to do with the fact that many parts of the brain must be active when you have these kind of experiences?

after all, what's so incredible about the same basic brain structure in all humans undergoing the same process (of death) having occasionally similar results?

Oh, suddenly it's no noise, but a signal (see further).

All people sleep at night. Therefore they must have the same kind of dreams. Non sequitur.

Hundreds of people out of billions is statistical noise, not signal.

Where is your work to show us your numbers? hundres of people out of billions, you say? Show me your research and your numbers.

 

[Pup]

No, I have no 'work', The Norseman. But I studied something about the brain. i know that different parts of the brain must be involved for such complex experiences like NDE's, according to modern neuroscience.

Hundreds of people have the same sequence of combinations of networks firing during an NDE? This is statistically improbable that they all experience an OBE, a tunnel, a light, this peaceful feeling, the words: it's not your time yet etc. This sequence of experiences is a specific sequence of firing networks in the brain. This is statistically improbable that all these people have almost exactly the same sequence of combinated patterns of firing networks in their brains.

A tunnel, for example, can be explained by peripheral vision loss, common with various brain injuries. What are the odds that so many people with brain injuries have similar symptoms? Similarly, a feeling of euphoria can be explained by the brain releasing various feel-good chemicals, like a "runner's high,"only much greater. Again, what are the odds that so many runners report the same sensations?

These things are just how our bodies typically work, or fail to work, in certain situations.

 

[BStrong]

The only thing I can say from personal experience is that having been there, I saw nothing, heard nothing, and felt nothing.

I was also very glad to eventually open my eyes.

 

[MaartenVergu]

A tunnel, for example, can be explained by peripheral vision loss, common with various brain injuries.

Do you have proof for that? Many NDE'ers are talking about a tunnel they go through. The experience of going through this tunnel cannot be explained by peripherical vision loss. How do you explain the experience of going through the tunnel and being one with the light with your peripherical-vision-loss theory?

 

[MaartenVergu]

The only thing I can say from personal experience is that having been there, I saw nothing, heard nothing, and felt nothing.

I was also very glad to eventually open my eyes.

Yes, but many people have been there. So, your experience is not contradiction their ecperience at all. We simply don't know why you didn't experience an NDE;

A good explanation can be: you have no memory of these events.

 

[tsig]

Do you have proof for that? Many NDE'ers are talking about a tunnel they go through. The experience of going through this tunnel cannot be explained by peripherical vision loss. How do you explain the experience of going through the tunnel and being one with the light with your peripherical-vision-loss theory?

You are remembering your birth.

 

[Giordano]

Dreams involve many parts of one's brain: those involved in seeing, hearing, smelling, etc. They seem very much like real experiences to the dreamer.

Are dreams therefore real experiences?

 

[turingtest]

I disagree here. Most NDE's are very specific. The OBE, the tunnel, the light, the words: it's not your time yet. That's very specific.

If that, to you, counts as specificity proving a specific commonality, then you must believe that things like Lord Of The Rings, Moby Dick, the Bible, and any number of other fictions were all written by the same author.

When you are unconscious, you have no expectations. There are a lot of witnesses from atheists on the internet who had no such expectations at all and experienced the very specific events of an NDE.

Maarten, c'mon, man- think for a moment here. Obviously the expectations are formed before the consciousness is lost. And I don't necessarily mean "expectations" in the sense that individuals who don't share beliefs must expect the same thing, but something more like "culturally formed and ingrained" expectations. I'm an atheist who was born and raised in a predominantly Christian culture- I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see a "tunnel" and hear voices during my NDE (assuming I have one- the "D" is a given, the "E" is not).

What has my 'qualification' to do with the fact that many parts of the brain must be active when you have these kind of experiments?

Seriously? You want to make pronouncements about what the brain is capable (or not capable) of, and you think your qualifications to do so shouldn't be in question? And, before you ask, no, I have no such qualifications either; but then, I'm not the one making assertions that need them, am I?

Oh, suddenly it's no noise, but a signal (see further).

All people sleep at night. Therefore they must have the same kind of dreams. Non sequitur.

I don't even know why you think this has anything to do with anything I said. Non-sequitur is about right. (Oh, I see- you missed the word "occasionally," didn't you? Or misunderstood it in context.)

Where is your work to show us your numbers? hundres of people out of billions, you say? Show me your research and your numbers.

Wait, what? Seriously? The "hundreds of people" I said was taken directly from your own post immediately above mine- "Hundreds of people have the same sequence of combinations of networks firing during an NDE?" Again, c'mon, man- I'm sure that sounded like a really great gotcha in your head, but if you don't want someone to use your numbers to contest your conclusions, then maybe you should do a little more research and come up with some better ones.

 

[MaartenVergu]

Turingtest, do you think that there are not many different networks of the brain active to produce this sequence of OBE, tunnel-experience, light experience, feelings, understanding words in a meaningful way?

Other argument: these experiences are not chaotic at all, what you expect from an injuried dying brain.A dying brain cannot produce such harmonious experiences full of meaning and very vividly. It's a contradicition. A good working brain can produce these beautiful experiences. But not a dying damaged brain. From a dying brain you expect chaotic hallucinations.

 

[BStrong]

Yes, but many people have been there. So, your experience is not contradiction their ecperience at all. We simply don't know why you didn't experience an NDE;

A good explanation can be: you have no memory of these events.

A good explanation is that when the system shuts down, that's it.

I've had both types of shut downs - immediate and lingering, and I didn't go out of body, or saw angels, or saw a light or heard a heavenly choir - I was out, I woke up. end of story.

 

[MaartenVergu]

BStrong, why do you ignore the possibility of memory loss? You don't know that.

 

[Giordano]

Other argument: these experiences are not chaotic at all, what you expect from an injuried dying brain.A dying brain cannot produce such harmonious experiences full of meaning and very vividly. It's a contradicition. A good working brain can produce these beautiful experiences. But not a dying damaged brain. From a dying brain you expect chaotic hallucinations.

As has been pointed out to you in other threads on this topic, near-death experiences are, in fact, proposed by their advocates to really be death experiences. If they are death experiences, then you are swallowing a camel and straining at a gnat: you have proposed that a dying brain could only hallucinate chaotic experiences, whereas a dead brain would be able to experience a coherent multi-sense whole. And come back to tell of it.

Even if you are proposing that somehow, near death, we will glimpse what death itself would be like, you are proposing that a near-death, dying brain would be able to sense all of this as a coherent whole, but would not be able to hallucinate the same thing. Doesn't this strike you as a problem?