Continuation: 'What about building 7?'

[Dave Rogers]

Did you really just deploy the argument that people who don't believe your claims must therefore be closed-minded atheists?

Closed-minded, selfish atheists. Try to keep up.

Dave

 

[gerrycan]

Yep.....they get what they pay for.

So what is your opinion on crazy's theory of the effective width of the flange impacting the initiating event hypothesis.
As for our education system it is one of the finest in the world and historically we are one of the most inventive nations on earth who have produced some if the brightest minds.

 

[jaydeehess]

Tony, in CDs the explosion and the collapse happen close together since the explosion is causing the collapse. How did an explosion happening hours before cause the collapse?

Tony seems to have a rather severe time perception disorder. He has come up with scenarios that require gravity to delay its effects, dust to be able to smother fires over large areas in under a second, and as you point out, have explosions occurring several hours in advance of the time of a supposed demolition be part of that demolition.

 

[DGM]

So what is your opinion on crazy's theory of the effective width of the flange impacting the initiating event hypothesis.
As for our education system it is one of the finest in the world and historically we are one of the most inventive nations on earth who have produced some if the brightest minds.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could get them on board in your fight against the NIST? Why do you suppose they're not interested?

 

[jaydeehess]

So what is your opinion on crazy's theory of the effective width of the flange impacting the initiating event hypothesis.
As for our education system it is one of the finest in the world and historically we are one of the most inventive nations on earth who have produced some if the brightest minds.

Completely OT, but I have long felt that higher education should be heavily subsidized or paid outright, for students proving their worth. Get better than B+ on all subjects in high school and receive free tuition. If you dog it through grade school you still have the chance to go to college or university but you'll have to pay for it.

 

[jaydeehess]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could get them on board in your fight against the NIST? Why do you suppose they're not interested?

To paraphrase Leonard Cohen;

First they take the interweebs, then they take Berlin.

 

[000063]

There was no putting those cases back together with that SEC office completely destroyed as it was in the collapse. The notion about random loose papers in the streets after the collapses being a problem for the reasoning is silly on its face.

You're missing the point (of course); destroying documents in such a way that your documents have a good chance of literally being in the wind is incompetent.

There was no looking for evidence of arson in the collapsed WTC 7 building and I don't see how they would ever find evidence that the fires were intentionally set in that situation.

In fact there was no investigation at all initially, Rudy Giuliani's minions just started getting rid of the steel. This also implies they knew why/how it came down.

Well, the FDNY was "fooled". Why not New York?

The logic shows it had to be arson.

The logic you refuse to explain?

if one thinks like a detective that is the only possible conclusion for how the fires in WTC 7 were started.

Except for all those other possibilities you refuse to give more than a handwave, yes. You do realize that detectives are supposed to look at all relevant evidence, right, not customize it to fit their theory of the crime? Doing precisely that has led to innocent people being put in prison.

The argument here that WTC 7 was anything but a controlled demolition is pure bogus nonsense. [...]

Neither Thermite* nor fire is a core part of any conventional form of CD, I hasten to point out.

The fact that the exterior of the building

Exterior to include the EMP, of course.

comes down in a symmetric free fall can't possibly have been caused by anything but controlled demolition by the simultaneous removal of all 24 core columns over a number of stories low in the building.

No Truther has ever proved that free fall is characteristic of CD. It's also been pointed out that there were periods of both over and under G acceleration. Oh, and how would the natural of the exterior's collapse indicate anything about the destruction of the core columns - that is, interior columns? Why did the interior collapse asymmetrically, but the exterior symmetrically?

If WTC 7 had some form of demolition devices in it they had to be pre-positioned before Sept. 11, 2001. This means it was a planned event.

Logistical impossibilities have been pointed out to you and were ignored.

Finally, the results of 911 were the use of the U.S. military to remove governments involved in oil and gas production and pipelines that were not friendly to certain U.S. fossil fuel corporations.

Texas Sharpshooter, and a very vague one.

Most sane and rational people have acknowledged that we have a carbon dioxide overabundance problem in the earth's atmosphere that is being caused by excessive consumption of fossil fuels,

Are you that hard up for evidence?

This is what the 911 shills here should be telling their bosses instead of trying to incessantly spin away from and cover up the obvious controlled demolitions of the three buildings in NYC on Sept. 11,2001.

So "obvious" that only an overwhelming minority of people say it was CD, and they tend to be very vague on the details.

As fringe resets go, I've heard better. Again I ask; who do you think you're convincing? Truthers are literally a joke in the public's eyes.

There is evidence in the situation and timing of the fall of WTC 1 and the fires in WTC 7 to suggest the fires in WTC 7 were a result of arson and not the fall of WTC 1.

Except for the evidence you refuse to address; reports of fire earlier than is convenient for your narrative.

Your comments here are inane and if you aren't a shill you certainly act like one. If you are one you should be telling your bosses what I said in post #894 instead of arguing nonsensically.

How many shills have you met, exactly?

For someone who's supposedly so perceptive, I can't help but wonder why you don't recognize the obvious joke. Then again, I know CTs are prone to a necessary lack of self-awareness.

The cars had plastic parts on their exterior, which was flammable and would ignite easily, WTC 7 did not. Did you forget that part of my point?

Well, it's not like WTC 7 was some sort of office building filled with flammable paper and furnishings, the former of which you already acknowledged.

 

[Matthew Cline]

You're missing the point (of course); destroying documents in such a way that your documents have a good chance of literally being in the wind is incompetent.

To play devil's advocate: the hypothetical arsonists could have doused the targeted documents in accelerant so thoroughly that they were soaked, so the only documents that survived the fire would be ones they didn't care about.

Well, the FDNY was "fooled". Why not New York?

Clearly Rudy Giuliani should have second guessed the FDNY and ordered them to conduct an arson investigation anyways.

 

[DGM]

To play devil's advocate: the hypothetical arsonists could have doused the targeted documents in accelerant so thoroughly that they were soaked, so the only documents that survived the fire would be ones they didn't care about.



Clearly Rudy Giuliani should have second guessed the FDNY and ordered them to conduct an arson investigation anyways.

So the CD was to hide the arson? Why not just hide the arson?

 

[Animal]

Completely OT, but I have long felt that higher education should be heavily subsidized or paid outright, for students proving their worth. Get better than B+ on all subjects in high school and receive free tuition. If you dog it through grade school you still have the chance to go to college or university but you'll have to pay for it.

When you get something for free.....it has little to no value to the recipient.

(My own observation from my college days. The ones that struggled a bit through H.S overall did better because they had developed study skills in H.S. than the ones that coasted....and this was at one of the top rated technical institutes in the country...and the world for what it matters(

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I think you missed four important ones:

13.
14.
15.

And the clincher:

16. Because Tony Szamboti said so, and he's cleverer than everyone else put together. He just is.

Dave

Actually.... more detail...

Color Key:
Missing Provided Not Related to CD Not related to WTC 7 Not connected to collapse initiation Ad Hominem

Foundation Evidence [prima fascia]
Evidence of Explosives:

• Remains of detonation cord
• Remains of explosive devices
• Structural members showing clear signs of failure from explosives
• Explosions during collapse onset

Evidence of Thermite

• Structural members showing clear signs of failure from thermite
• Evidence of thermite detonating or burning at time of collapse

• Molten steel 3 months later
  [*]Corroded steel members in debris pile weeks after collapse

Evidence of CD (regardless of explosive/thermite (dependent upon prima fascia)

• 
  [*]The building came down in a symmetric free fall
  [*]Simultaneous removal of all 24 core columns over a number of stories low in the building.
  [*]NIST model does not replicate the free fall or actual building condition during the failure
  [*]"...The report needed to omit pertinent structural features to even make it superficially plausible, negat[ing] the NIST WTC 7 report as a viable explanation."
  [*]The Building was set on fire intentionally by arsonists
  - Said arsonists used thermite as the ignition agent
  - No graphic evidence of fire for at least 2 hours after the collapse of the towers?
  - The arson was necessary to destroy files held by the SEC concerning investigations into companies the conspirators did not want investigated.
  - The demolition was necessary to cover up evidence of arson.
  - The cause of the demolition was deliberately covered up, because for some unstated reason it's easy to rig a building collapse investigation but not an arson investigation.
  [*]Explosions inside the building long before the collapse
  [*]The fires in WTC 1 were "limited"
  [*]The horizontal propagation of the failure in WTC 1 (the North Tower) occurs in less than a second across the entire 98th floor
  [*]The fall of the upper section shows no sign of deceleration during its fall... meaning some form of demolition devices were removing the structural integrity below the falling mass above.
  [*]The motivation for setting up the attacks was for the] U.S. military to remove governments involved in oil and gas production and pipelines that were not friendly to certain U.S. fossil fuel corporations.
  [*]Everyone disagreeing with the CD hypothesis is either a shill or an idiot
  [*]Using a forum nickname automatically renders a counterargument wrong.

This is the play out of the thread so far.

Oh.... and for some participants:

• OCD about connections and the one single element that "could not fail" means the NIST is wrong therefore.... [no specification]
• Because they don't want to be criticized about having no evidence for CD.

Astounding... how much time wasting there's been. For all of the shill remarks... somebody must be extremely board to want all of this "bogging down"

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

The question is where will the Conspiracy Theorist go from here if this is the best and the brightest of
them all?

 

[JayUtah]

The question is where will the Conspiracy Theorist go from here if this is the best and the brightest of
them all?

What makes you think they're not content continually spinning this hamster wheel?

 

[DGM]

The question is where will the Conspiracy Theorist go from here if this is the best and the brightest of
them all?

What make you think they expect to go from here? Gage and Co. are happy with the status quo.

 

[JayUtah]

What make you think they expect to go from here? Gage and Co. are happy with the status quo.

That's really it. Perpetual underdog status, perpetually in need of donated funds, and perpetually on the brink of some great breakthrough. What the faithful don't realize is that if -- in some wild stretch of fantasy -- Gage et al. were suddenly vindicated and NIST suddenly admitted fault, the focus would shift entirely away from Truthers. It would shift to NIST, to Congress, to the Dept. of Justice, and the legitimate apparatus of control. Gage and the other Truthers would have no further audience. The profitable path in conspiracism is continual railing against the powers that be, not supporting them or being right. There's no money in being right.

 

[Crazy Chainsaw]

That's really it. Perpetual underdog status, perpetually in need of donated funds, and perpetually on the brink of some great breakthrough. What the faithful don't realize is that if -- in some wild stretch of fantasy -- Gage et al. were suddenly vindicated and NIST suddenly admitted fault, the focus would shift entirely away from Truthers. It would shift to NIST, to Congress, to the Dept. of Justice, and the legitimate apparatus of control. Gage and the other Truthers would have no further audience. The profitable path in conspiracism is continual railing against the powers that be, not supporting them or being right. There's no money in being right.

I have no problem with Gage and company fleecing the flock, if the truthers did not give to Gage they would probably put the money into something destructive, like reproduction.
No need in degrading the human specie's any more with truther DNA. We have enough Woo potential as it is.

 

[NoahFence]

What make you think they expect to go from here? Gage and Co. are happy with the status quo.

At some point he won't be here. Can't come soon enough.

 

[Dave Rogers]

You're missing the point (of course); destroying documents in such a way that your documents have a good chance of literally being in the wind is incompetent.

It's also a clear case of unnecessary complication by the hypothetical conspirators. If the aim of destroying WTC7 is to prevent an SEC investigation from reaching the right conclusion, then arson simply shifts the requirement to preventing a major fire investigation from reaching the right conclusion, and arson followed by CD shifts it still further to preventing an arson investigation from happening at all and preventing a building collapse investigation from reaching the right conclusion. Rather than infiltrating NIST and the FDNY, wouldn't it be simpler to rig the SEC? We're talking about a conspiracy that extends into the CIA, FBI, NORAD, the FDNY, the entire architectural and structural engineering professions, Boeing, United Airlines, American Airlines, and whoever else is being implicated this week; how come the SEC is the one set of untouchables?

As with so many other conspiracist motives, this one is downright stupid.

Dave

 

[ozeco41]

That's really it. Perpetual underdog status, perpetually in need of donated funds, and perpetually on the brink of some great breakthrough. What the faithful don't realize is that if -- in some wild stretch of fantasy -- Gage et al. were suddenly vindicated and NIST suddenly admitted fault, the focus would shift entirely away from Truthers. It would shift to NIST, to Congress, to the Dept. of Justice, and the legitimate apparatus of control. Gage and the other Truthers would have no further audience. The profitable path in conspiracism is continual railing against the powers that be, not supporting them or being right. There's no money in being right.

 

[Tony Szamboti]

Yes they do. I will have to check the last page or so but in the several instances of my asking, Tony had not even acknowledged my question about how much time that gypsum dust created by collapse had, to pile onto and smother burning materials on the four or more 1 acre office spaces involved in large area fires.

The reason I did not reply to either your's or Oysteins weasel points here earlier is that they are silly and nonsensical.

The fires in WTC 1 were put out as soon as the floor they were on was impacted from above. It really is that simple. There was essentially no chance for hot debris from WTC 1 to fly over to WTC 7 and start fires. That is a fantasy promulgated by those like you trying to cover up the reality that controlled demolition was the actual reason for the collapses of the three high rises in NYC on Sept. 11, 2001.

Oystein wants to say there was massive damage to the south face of WTC 7 but the evidence does not support him and he has no legitimate photos to support his contention. WTC 7 was 350 feet away from WTC 1 and was hit with very little debris from WTC 1. A good example of this is that the round Plexiglas topped walk bridge from WTC 6 to WTC 7 was largely intact after the collapse of WTC 1 and there are legitimate photos showing it largely intact.