Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kaosium]

Now that the court of last resort in the jurisdiction involved has spoken, can't you folks give it a rest?

Do you think this issue is solely about the trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito?

There's more to it than that, including why anyone ever bought into it in the first place--and why some people still do and will never be able to let it rest.

That's actually a lot more...interesting.

 

[Numbers]

You think it's just cultural then? Would another type of system serve them better? The current one isn't exactly organic, it was in part developed by the French and Il Duce's influence still lingers.

You're asking a nature-nurture type of question.

The culture helps determine the kind of system and how well it works.
The system and its successes and failures influence how people think it should and could work.

The people that planned the judicial system are not the people who carry it out, and the people who carry out may have very different motivations than the people who did the planning.

 

[Numbers]

This is all true, but Italy also has automatic appeals, so the lengthy timescale is built into the system, regardless of the other breaches.

That is indeed part of the problem. And the biggest part of that problem is that the prosecution is allowed to appeal without any reasonable new information after an acquittal.

 

[Kaosium]

You're asking a nature-nurture type of question.

The culture helps determine the kind of system and how well it works.
The system and its successes and failures influence how people think it should and could work.

The people that planned the judicial system are not the people who carry it out, and the people who carry out may have very different motivations than the people who did the planning.

Yes, that's the basis. Now would reforms imitated from another country with a similar system (civil law) improve it, or would there be unintended consequences from importing ideas alien to the (current) system make it worse? Is an original idea generated from the current system a better idea?

For example, I heard years back they were considering a law that would allow people acquitted to sue prosecutors, there might well have been restrictions but I can't recall off the top of my head. I read something again recently that suggested to me it may have been implemented, I didn't try and confirm it but let's discuss it anyway.

It's the sort of thing that sounds good, and I'd love to see Mignini forced to sleep on Curatolo's bench, but in the end would that encourage prosecutors to cheat worse but more surreptitiously? Would it cause them to be afraid to press some cases that ought to have been pushed? What would work best for the Italian Republic in the long run?

 

[acbytesla]

And that is one of the biggest problems with LT/LCN DNA. You could very well profiling contamination, and you can find that so easily if there's a lack of forensic standards.

I know that the only piece of evidence that really had me doubting Amanda an Raffaele was Stefanoni reporting that she found Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp. But the simple fact is that nothing else made any sense. That was why it was easy for me to dismiss the DNA. Well that and the prosecution so afraid of losing that they were playing games with discovery.

They neverplay games when they have a solid case. They simply don't need to.

 

[Desert Fox]

I know that the only piece of evidence that really had me doubting Amanda an Raffaele was Stefanoni reporting that she found Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp. But the simple fact is that nothing else made any sense. That was why it was easy for me to dismiss the DNA. Well that and the prosecution so afraid of losing that they were playing games with discovery.

They neverplay games when they have a solid case. They simply don't need to.

I assume the DNA was legitimate but the fact that it was found a month and a half after the fact made it useless in my opinion.

 

[codyjuneau]

Now that the court of last resort in the jurisdiction involved has spoken, can't you folks give it a rest?

.
Are we being too loud?

Cody
.

 

[Strozzi]

Yeah, she falsely accused a black guy to protect another black guy, whose DNA and prints in Meridith's blood was found all over the crime scene (found long before Mignini invented the three suspect, satanic sacrifice theory and had his minions plant DNA evidence on the clasp and knife to bolster said theory weeks later). Not the typical "Susan Smith" scenario, is it? It would have been wiser if Amanda had just named Rudy Guede instead, keeping in line with Guede's testimony, "black man found, black man guilty". No need to implicate Lumumba. She had the perfect fall guy, whose DNA she made sure would be found while she clean away hers with the help of that lamp.

The lamp? The lamp? I never understood why the lamp was there except to assume that someone needed it to illuminate an area. Can someone please educate me about the lamp?

Was it magical - a special lamp used to locate DNA for non-swirl cleanup? If so, I bet Stefanoni wishes she had one for her lab. Why invest in expensive LCN DNA equipment and a special clean room envelope when for just Euros 17 you can get a special magical lamp.

 

[carbonjam72]

Now that the court of last resort in the jurisdiction involved has spoken, can't you folks give it a rest?

Do you agree with the verdict of full acquittal?

If not, can you provide any explanation for your position?

ETA - you got to be kidding me, I got ninja'd on a magic friggin lamp???

 

[Strawberry]

The lamp? The lamp? I never understood why the lamp was there except to assume that someone needed it to illuminate an area. Can someone please educate me about the lamp?

Was it magical - a special lamp used to locate DNA for non-swirl cleanup? If so, I bet Stefanoni wishes she had one for her lab. Why invest in expensive LCN DNA equipment and a special clean room envelope when for just Euros 17 you can get a special magical lamp.

The lamp belonged to Amanda, and it was in Meredith's room. Therefore, as the lamp was not found to have Amanda's DNA on it, the absence of Amanda's DNA everywhere else is rendered meaningless. In fact, the absence of her DNA actually becomes evidence of guilt!

Or so I'm told by a crusader for the truth on facebook, who says he will carry on because he wants to be some small kernel of the truth in among all the Knox PR machine generated media.

 

[Ammonitida]

I assume the DNA was legitimate but the fact that it was found a month and a half after the fact made it useless in my opinion.

The circumstances made the find very suspicious. Ditto for the knife, which yielded Meridith's DNA despite being incompatible with one of the wounds and the blood imprint at the crime scene. I'm certain that there was some funny business going on at the lab (or during the searches that seized these two items).

 

[carbonjam72]

The lamp? The lamp? I never understood why the lamp was there except to assume that someone needed it to illuminate an area. Can someone please educate me about the lamp?

Was it magical - a special lamp used to locate DNA for non-swirl cleanup? If so, I bet Stefanoni wishes she had one for her lab. Why invest in expensive LCN DNA equipment and a special clean room envelope when for just Euros 17 you can get a special magical lamp.

The lamp contained a genie, who specialized in magical selective clean-ups of DNA, fingerprints, and foot steps made in wet blood. And does excellent work, you won't be able to tell anyone else was even there!

 

[acbytesla]

I assume the DNA was legitimate but the fact that it was found a month and a half after the fact made it useless in my opinion.

I don't actually doubt that Stefanoni "presented" Raffaele profile. But the mystery will always be how did it get there. Was it the result of contamination from that month delay in the ckasp's collection or was it the result of laboratory contamination?

I remember getting into discussion with "thoughtful" about how my argument about how the odds of 3 almost strangers with no history of violence combining to commit a murder had to be astronomical. She said math didn't work that way...You can't go back from a known event and then argue that the odds against it was high. But then she would ignore that logic and make the same argument in reverse suggesting that having contamination from the suspect was also high

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Finally in a Funk

Now that the court of last resort in the jurisdiction involved has spoken, can't you folks give it a rest?

Darth Rotor,

Nice to hear from you. Here are a couple of gems from Funk de Fino in the first Cartwheel thread: "Just checking to see if there are still people acting like truthers here. I see there are." and : "Except for a few 911 Truther type clones, this is certainly the case for most folks." and: "There is only one thing worse than the lies those pair of clowns told the police. The lies and blatant falsehoods their supporters are telling here. They do realise that they are only making it look worse for the supposed victims of this miscarriage of justice?"

I am waiting for him to...clarify...his remarks.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I don't actually doubt that Stefanoni "presented" Raffaele profile. But the mystery will always be how did it get there. Was it the result of contamination from that month delay in the ckasp's collection or was it the result of laboratory contamination?

I remember getting into discussion with "thoughtful" about how my argument about how the odds of 3 almost strangers with no history of violence combining to commit a murder had to be astronomical. She said math didn't work that way...You can't go back from a known event and then argue that the odds against it was high. But then she would ignore that logic and make the same argument in reverse suggesting that having contamination from the suspect was also high

The most likely answer is that a cop rubbed the clasp hook against something he knew would transfer Raffaele's DNA. Then he put it back on the floor and instructed the scientific police to find the bra clasp because they needed it for their investigation. They were looking for it, which is why they got so excited when they found it in a pile of trash.

No one will ever be able to prove this, of course. But why did the scientific police go back to a trashed-out crime scene in the first place, weeks after they thought they had completed their investigation? According to Frank Sfarzo, Mignini requested it. He had two suspects in custody, whom he had publicly accused, but he had no credible forensic evidence linking either of them to the crime. Lo and behold, he got just what he needed.

 

[Bill Williams]

The lamp? The lamp? I never understood why the lamp was there except to assume that someone needed it to illuminate an area. Can someone please educate me about the lamp?

Was it magical - a special lamp used to locate DNA for non-swirl cleanup? If so, I bet Stefanoni wishes she had one for her lab. Why invest in expensive LCN DNA equipment and a special clean room envelope when for just Euros 17 you can get a special magical lamp.

This is the definitive analysis of the canard and factoid about the lamp:

http://groundreport.com/amanda-knox-the-lady-of-the-lamp-not/

In these post-full-acquittal days, these sort of guilter-factoids will fade. The key to the one about the lamp eventually fading is that it was never referred to at any of the trials as being important to this case.

Any explanation one person can come up with which is "guilt-like" can be countered with an equally likely innocent explanation - like that Postal Police Battistelli used it to see into the room better once the door was open.

It's amazing that anyone is still arguing "all the other evidence", now that the highest court in Italy has issued a full exoneration.

 

[acbytesla]

The most likely answer is that a cop rubbed the clasp hook against something he knew would transfer Raffaele's DNA. Then he put it back on the floor and instructed the scientific police to find the bra clasp because they needed it for their investigation. They were looking for it, which is why they got so excited when they found it in a pile of trash.

No one will ever be able to prove this, of course. But why did the scientific police go back to a trashed-out crime scene in the first place, weeks after they thought they had completed their investigation? According to Frank Sfarzo, Mignini requested it. He had two suspects in custody, whom he had publicly accused, but he had no credible forensic evidence linking either of them to the crime. Lo and behold, he got just what he needed.

It seems to me that Numbers proved that there was actual contamination of the testing macines. I find it difficult to believe that someone would deliberately frame two college students. Still, you have to be troubled both by the circumstances surrounding the collection of the bra clasp And even more the absurd show they put on. That always troubled me. It seemed so theatrical. It was like they had found a gun as opposed to just another probably inconsequential piece of evidence .

 

[js202]

Funny how even Mach has "left the stage", to use Nencini's phrasing.

My expectation is that, if he has not already received it, Machiavelli will soon receive a soft word from the Sollecitos' legal people that, as both an Italian resident and self-proclaimed aficionado of the Italian legal system, he should consider the wisdom of curtailing his habitually inflammatory rhetoric *pronto*. I fondly envision this coming in the form of a PM from a longtime lurker on one of his favorite forums. One who has been lying in wait for years, keeping notes as he or she patiently awaited the moment to send such a note.

After four-plus years of incessant, destructive and pompous BS, it would be a good thing indeed to at last have silence from that quarter.

 

[Numbers]

It seems to me that Numbers proved that there was actual contamination of the testing macines. I find it difficult to believe that someone would deliberately frame two college students. Still, you have to be troubled both by the circumstances surrounding the collection of the bra clasp And even more the absurd show they put on. That always troubled me. It seemed so theatrical. It was like they had found a gun as opposed to just another probably inconsequential piece of evidence .

{Highlighting added to quote.}

I need to correct your highlighted statement. Others, including posters here Diocletus and Chris_Halkides, discovered the discrepancies in sequential sample numbering, machine "malfunctioning" and the clear evidence of contamination in the quantification DNA data that Stefanoni had, unacceptably late in the first trial, turned over to the defense.

My contribution was to combine their information from the quantification results machine "malfunctioning" with the contamination information and some of the significant events of the "investigation" by police, into a tabular timeline. Thus, I was simply a reporter and summarizer of the work of others.

 

[Kaosium]

I'm sorry but a cite for what or did I miss something?

I missed you, good to see you posting again.