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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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This seems to be a recurring groupie mantra.
Given that in Italy it is widely perceived that RS is a dangerous lowlife who got away with murder because of his Papa’s connections individuals there would rightfully be fearful of the Sollecito clan and their legal friends.

However it’s unlikely that either of the pair who recently had their rape/murder convictions annulled will be defending their honour in the London courts for example.
We shall see but don’t hold your breath.

ps Ah now I see why misogyny is a thread tag.

I wonder just how many of those Britons who insist on lying to people about the evidence against Raffaele would care to be introduced to the Italian legal system via the diffamazione laws of Italy? They're pretty broad I hear, Mignini was filing those investigations against Americans during his heyday and I recall Alan Dershowitz claiming that the Kerchers could take Amanda's book money somehow...

I myself care more for freedom of expression than libel suits, but considering the number of Colpevolesti who sat back and cheered when Mignini was threatening those suits--or never spoke against them--it would kinda be poetic justice, would it not? :)
 
Personally I don't think Massei was either corrupt or incompetent...
His report was fine as far as I'm concerned.

I am reasonably certain, reading Massei/Christiani's explanation of the broken window and the stomach contents evidence, that he had to know he was talking total rubbish. Possibly he did not realise until he came to write it all up that the stomach contents evidence broke Mignini's time of death and that hence his court was convicting on the basis of an impossible narrative, but at some point I think he had to have realised it, at least on some level.
 
I wonder just how many of those Britons who insist on lying to people about the evidence against Raffaele would care to be introduced to the Italian legal system via the diffamazione laws of Italy? They're pretty broad I hear, Mignini was filing those investigations against Americans during his heyday and I recall Alan Dershowitz claiming that the Kerchers could take Amanda's book money somehow...

I myself care more for freedom of expression than libel suits, but considering the number of Colpevolesti who sat back and cheered when Mignini was threatening those suits--or never spoke against them--it would kinda be poetic justice, would it not? :)

They are remarkably inconsistent in their principles. I would have more respect if they did not instantly flip flop on things like this when the seas shift.
 
Hellmann is doing an interview now, explaining why he acquitted etc.

(You'd swear this show had been pro-innocence all along).
 
I am reasonably certain, reading Massei/Christiani's explanation of the broken window and the stomach contents evidence, that he had to know he was talking total rubbish. Possibly he did not realise until he came to write it all up that the stomach contents evidence broke Mignini's time of death and that hence his court was convicting on the basis of an impossible narrative, but at some point I think he had to have realised it, at least on some level.

I think he was just trying to be clever about the broken window, find an explanation that accounted for the facts the prosecution introduced, and for the stomach contents he was scientifically illiterate and couldn't answer the question.

In my opinion science in the courtroom is a big problem these days, worldwide. The average juror is supposed to be able comprehend the science behind the forensics in court, as of course the judge must, but just what percentage of a jury pool is really going to be able to do that? The prosecution drones on, the defense guy drones on and the jury might just believe the prosecution inherently or the one who uses words they understand.

Good to see you posting here Kevin. :)

Again, thanks.
 
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This seems to be a recurring groupie mantra.
Given that in Italy it is widely perceived that RS is a dangerous lowlife who got away with murder because of his Papa’s connections individuals there would rightfully be fearful of the Sollecito clan and their legal friends.

However it’s unlikely that either of the pair who recently had their rape/murder convictions annulled will be defending their honour in the London courts for example.
We shall see but don’t hold your breath.

ps Ah now I see why misogyny is a thread tag.


Could you explain what you mean by the term "groupie"?

Could you explain your evidence behind your assertion that "it is widely perceived that RS is a dangerous lowlife who got away with murder because of his Papa’s connections individuals"? If you can't, then perhaps you can retract that accusation.

Could you explain what you mean by "now I see why misogyny is a thread tag"?
 
:) I just can't get over the change in tone of the whole show...

What's really strange to me is how the tone of the same (and other) shows changed in the week before the ISC verdict.

If I was Mach, I might be putting on a tinfoil hat about now ...
 
The interview with Hellmann was interesting!

Is there an easy way. or a feed that shows english subtitles? We have relied on eric P in the past, but then he came on the boards on starting spewing goofy, and undermined his credibility, imo.
 
Precis of what [Hellmann] said for us ignorant non-Italian speakers? :)
Can you give a summary?


A lot of it was what he's been quoted as saying elsewhere recently, but he talked about some more details, such as the dirty gloves during the collection of the bra clasp. When asked whether he had acquitted because of innocence or insufficiency of proof, he said that only Guede knows the truth; but then later said that he had "always thought" Amanda and Raffaele were innocent (meaning, I assume, that the Cassazione's reversal and Nencini's verdict hadn't raised doubts).
 
In my opinion science in the courtroom is a big problem these days, worldwide. The average juror is supposed to be able comprehend the science behind the forensics in court, as of course the judge must, but just what percentage of a jury pool is really going to be able to do that? The prosecution drones on, the defense guy drones on and the jury might just believe the prosecution inherently or the one who uses words they understand.


I agree to an extent, and ordinarily the response to this would be that it's one of the key jobs of those speaking for the defence and prosecution (and judges) to be able to express things in terms that are comprehensible to the average "man in the street". Arguably (in the past), if a lawyer/judge cannot do that, then (s)he's either not doing his/her job properly, or the whole area is too obtuse to be worthy of consideration by the court.

However, the problem is that with the advances in forensic science, there are now areas of evidence that are of vital importance to outcomes and verdicts, but which really are too obtuse to be able to reduce to simplistic terms to appeal to lay jurors. In the UK (well, in England & Wales) we've already seen attempts to limit complex fraud trials to judge-only trials (i.e. to abolish lay juries), for the very reason that the complex financial engineering issues that underpin many such trials - and of which a deep knowledge and understanding is required for anyone who is tasked with delivering a verdict - are simply too complicated for many "average" people to be able to understand. This has had the effect in practice of reducing some complex fraud trials to farce, when juries have had no choice but to acquit, purely on the basis that they just didn't understand the complexity of financial engineering that would be necessary in order to be persuaded of the defendants' guilt beyond a reasonable doubt: "We don't understand how the prosecution is alleging that the accused committed this crime, so we're going to have to acquit".

And the very same thing is starting to happen in areas such as low template DNA and other complex areas of forensic science. Unfortunately, particularly in the case of DNA, it seems that "a little learning can be a dangerous thing" - many jurors seem to think that DNA evidence is some sort of ultra-reliable "gold standard" of evidence, and consequently seem improperly resistant to defence arguments on the massive problems with low-template DNA evidence.

I feel that in the Knox/Kercher case, for example, it's reasonable to suppose that the convicting judicial panels - judges and lay judges alike - heard the prosecutors say "Sollecito's DNA was on the bra clasp" and "Kercher's and Knox's DNA was on Sollecito's kitchen knife", and immediately accorded this evidence a high level of certainty and reliability. I suspect that they therefore automatically discounted defence arguments that the low-template level of this DNA, coupled with the obvious potential paths of contamination, meant that this particular DNA evidence was unreliable and worthless. I suspect they took the view that "they (the defence) would say that, wouldn't they".
 
:) I just can't get over the change in tone of the whole show...

No kidding. My favorite moment was previous-longtime-guilter Simonetta Matone (I think it was; I couldn't see the picture properly) putting Dershowitz in his place: after they showed a clip of him saying that Amanda would have been convicted in any US court, she said something to the effect of that she couldn't understand what he was talking about, since he himself is an "artist" specializing in getting people off with much stronger evidence against them!
 
Dysfunctional, absolutely. It's about as bad as it gets in Western Europe. It's not just the the number of violations for the right to a fair trial, it's also their execrable record on the length of trials, which is ridiculous, laughable even.

As for corrupt, I'd put it this way: it's too easily corruptible. It requires a saintly prosecutor for the system to be fair, otherwise the system can be manipulated by an unprincipled PM like Mignini.

Personally I don't think Massei was either corrupt or incompetent. He made some errors, but considering his environment they were understandable. It would be natural for him to have a great deal of confidence in the integrity of the police and prosecutor, it's something he wants to believe and the odds are extreme they don't always screw up this badly. Mignini and especially Comodi no doubt put criminals behind bars on a regular basis. The Polizia di Stato likely get real confessions employing those tactics as well, they did reel in Rudy Guede from Germany and the Polizia Scientifica are perfectly capable of getting good evidence as well, as can be seen by them finding copious evidence of Rudy Guede's murder. It's the 'second trip' which is egregious forensic malpractice, the first was sloppy but not every country is going to have the resources of the FBI and I can cut some slack if training and materials aren't quite up to that standard.

His report was fine as far as I'm concerned. The facts are reliable with only the errors one might expect from having to compile so much mind-numbing minutia, and the conclusions were required by the verdict. Thus one often sees him represent the prosecution and defense arguments and pick the less plausible argument, invariably from the prosecution, which makes him look stupid, but in reality that was required by the verdict and in that three trial system the first verdict doesn't matter much, had Raffaele and Amanda been acquitted they'd still have had to face another trial. The first trial is where most of the evidence is laid out and the initial arguments made, then the motivations document is published and the defense (or prosecution) writes the appeal document which will serve as the basis for the next trial, the one that really matters.

You can be acquitted in the first one and still end up convicted in the second and end up in prison if the Supreme Court confirms, which it usually does. That first trial may well just give lip service to the idea of beyond reasonable doubt and if I recall correctly Mignini even asked for a lower burden of proof in his close as Amanda might leave the country and be out of reach (he did this for his close before Hellmann too). Thus the motivations document reads that way and it's apparent that Massei has to string it together with implausible conjectures and going from 'possible' to 'probable' without bothering with evidence or argument. That will be noticed by the appeals court like it was in this case, and additionally the appeals, especially Raffaele's, point out so many egregious errors if they weren't apparent from just reading Massei.

Hellmann's court did fine, though his weakest reasoning was the calunnia conviction but the narrative in the motivations accurately represented the circumstances. I thought at the time it may have just been a bone thrown to the police as the jury might not have wanted to imply misconduct on the part of their own police force, later Hellmann basically confirmed that suspicion in an interview where he said something to the effect of having to either convict Amanda on that charge or accuse police. I can't help but wonder if he wrote that motivations thinking it might be rejected, separated from the murder (and other) charges and re-tried or even dropped later.

Then we get to Galati, a true villain and where the weird gets weirder. It's a fundamentally dishonest document that should have had him called in and wedgied until his undies were bloody; instead it was confirmed and naturally the Chieffi document, which explains the reasoning behind the quashing of Hellmann, is little more than a summary of the Galati appeal. Even someone who knows nothing about the case ought to be able to realize there's something very wrong with the Italian justice system if they read the sections on Curatolo and Quintavalle from both Hellmann and then Chieffi. All they have to know is anything about eyewitness testimony, or memory in general, and enough streetsmarts not to go running to a dictionary when someone claims that the word 'gullible' isn't officially an English word.

At that point I lost all confidence in the Italian System. That document from the Italian Supreme Court basically ordered a show trial and allowed Nencini to use evidence and conclusions from Rudy Guede's fast-track trial where both parties were eager to agree that someone else had been present and that the break-in had been staged. Upon reflection that show trial may simply have been an attempt to produce a appeals motivation from a convicting judge to see if it would stand scrutiny, and if it did not then it would serve to determine that no guilt narrative could employ evidence and be confirmed, but it's very difficult to have any confidence in a body that could produce a document as execrable as the Chieffi motivation. That's not hyperbole, that's reality, and it makes the Italian Court System look like a welfare program for delusional sophists.

Had Hellmann been confirmed and eventually the calunnia charge voided then I'd have said the Italian System just had a brain-fart that it corrected, in part due to the media frenzy and that they allow people like Mignini to abuse their system which absolutely requires prosecutors to be intellectually ethical. However with the highest body in the land producing such an embarrassment as the Chieffi document and the Nencini show trial they confirmed that it's more than just a local problem and it took almost eight years for it to be (mostly) corrected.

During the the time the Amanda Knox saga went through the Italian Courts Nicaragua managed to right two injustices and free both Eric Volz and Jason Puracal with a total time served of 22 months. Those two also have the added benefit of clean exonerations while Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito have to endure the possibility of sickos, chest-thumpers and dingbats stalking them online and in person for years to come because the Italian police and prosecution produced so much garbage 'evidence' against them in the courts and press that it generated a hate cult online that may not wane for years to come.

There are no doubt good and honest men and women serving Italy in their court system, there were heroes who emerged like Hellmann, Zanetti and the Supreme Court Justices that quashed the Nencini verdict, but the system is too easily manipulated by the corrupt who can manage to pursue bizarre theories and victimize innocent people by the dozens. We now know that Mignini filed suits or started 'investigations' on somewhere over forty people in just the Monster of Florence and Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito cases and while he was convicted on charges of abuse of power in the MoF case he managed to manipulate his way out of that on a jurisdiction claim and the case being dropped, another apparent problem with the Italian Court System: a lack of accountability.

The police have the same problem if Machiavelli is correct. I used to include Biondi, Patrizia Stefanoni's superior, when attributing blame for the DNA work as he went into court and approved of her work. However I was informed that there's no inherent accountability in Italy, a superior does not take any responsibility for the errors of their subordinates, apparently even when they approve of the work in court. I do not know if Renato Biondi has any qualifications to head a police DNA lab outside he looks good in a suit, but being as he officially 'confirmed' Patrizia Stefanoni's work I'd like to think he should bear some responsibility for it. It is unlikely that such poor DNA work could be a one time affair, it is probably systemic and widespread thus an investigation like those necessary in other countries, including the US, would be beneficial.

It is possible to empathize somewhat with Patrizia Stefanoni. Imagine: all of a sudden she becomes attached to a famous prosecutor and goes from a lab tech to running a forensic investigation and part of said prosecutors team on a high profile murder case. It must have been a heady moment for her and it wasn't her mistakes which started this debacle, the initial forensic investigation clearly identified the perpetrator and as I understand it Mignini was responsible for ensuring the body temperature of the victim wasn't taken, he gave orders to that effect. Her problems began when the Polizia di Stato with the 'aid' of Pool Boy Giobbi (demoted from Clueless Clown) and his cast of thugs arrested three people on the gibberish they got out of an exhausted college girl in the middle of the night.

The problem was they didn't actually get a confession from this gaslighting expedition and the one Amanda Knox 'confusedly' remembered being there wasn't 'Unknown Male #2' who'd left the evidence inside the victim and on the toilet. Worse luck for them, it soon became apparent he had a host of people at his bar that night giving him an alibi. The kitchen knife that had been inexplicably 'collected' the day after the arrests by being plucked out of a drawer arbitrarily was soon announced as the 'murder knife'--despite the fact it didn't match the wounds or the outline left on the bed in blood. At this point the police are using psychological pressure to get a real confession from Amanda Knox by announcing false evidence to the press, such as the CCTV video they claimed was a 'clear cut' shot of Amanda, so I have often suspected the knife was just a bluff and they never intended to produce it in court because they expected to get a confession or find real evidence.

Claiming evidence that doesn't exist is a tactic used for this purpose by police sometimes, so perhaps at first Patrizia Stefanoni was just being a bit naughty and did not intend to ever produce that lab contamination in court. However since they never did get that confession and the 'second trip' to the murder scene drew a blank (again!) on finding any evidence of Amanda in the murder room, all of a sudden that lab contamination became their very best evidence--as long as no one looked at it very closely. Thus Stefanoni may have just been dragged along by forces beyond her control and could well have never intended to cheat as outrageously as she was eventually forced to.

The real problem here is the lack of accountability in my opinion. Had she ever confessed or at least released that data I would have stopped being so condemning, I'm more interested in fixing problems than collecting scalps. However since she failed to come clean and that DNA 'evidence' is still considered valid by kooks and used by hatemongers to cast doubt upon the acquittals of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, I still think that it's necessary for the practices of that lab to be criticized harshly and if the Kerchers are going to demand a search for additional attackers the obvious place to start is to get the data behind the DNA work that Stefanoni has managed to keep hidden until this very day.

Question for anyone who managed to get this far down:

Why is it that the other European countries with a Civil Law system don't have such an embarrassing record with the ECHR? Why does it appear that Germany, for example, makes so few mistakes in comparison?

These are the problems I see with the Italian Justice system which the case of AK and RS highlighted :-

* Police/prosecutors can freely break laws. Amanda and Raffaele were clearly being interrogated as suspects and Italian law says they should have been given access to lawyers, officially told they were suspects and the interrogations were taped. None of these things were done. No action at all was taken against the police over these abuses. If something similar happened in the UK, police officers would face prosecution.

* Dubious evidence totally lacking in credibility can be used to convict people. A knife with the following characteristics was used as evidence :-

Not matching the wounds
Not matching a bloody imprint on the bed
It had no blood
It was picked at random with no other knives detected
It had no biological material from Meredith

* Suspects can wait a long time before trial. Amanda and Raffaele waited a year before the first trial.

* Trials can last a very long time. The first Massei trial lasted a year. This means a suspect can spend years in custody even if they are found not guilty in the first trial.

* Police/prosecutors are freely allowed to lie. The prosecution/police in the case of Amanda and Raffaele lied on a massive scale.

* Dirty tricks can be used against suspects. Amanda was lied to she had HIV and her list of sexual partners was released to the media.

* Evidence which does not follow forensic protocol can be used. Stefanoni did not follow protocols with the knife and bra clasp but they were still used as evidence.

* Police/prosecution are freely allowed to suppress evidence.

* Defence requests to test evidence are turned down. The defense teams of Amanda and Raffaele made numerous requests to test evidence but were rejected.

* Judges write motivation reports with falsehoods. The Chieffi and Nencini reports were full of falsehoods.

* Defendants can be found guilty in a trial where they do not take part and have no representation from defense lawyers.

* False evidence can be used against suspects. The police wrote out statements for Amanda and Raffaele during the interrogations.

It is beyond me how the nutjobs on TJMK can claim the Italian justice system is pro-defendant. There was a poster here called Vibio who was always heaping slavish praise on the Italian justice system and going on about how awful the American system was and highlighted abuses which occurred in the United States. If the abuses which occurred in the case of Amanda and Raffaele happened in the United States, Vibio would have been shouting about them from the rooftops.
 
The two comments which seem to sum things up at this point are:

1) what real harm have the PGP folk done with their version of this, to justify a 'tit for tat'? The answer is, perhaps, none - except for rare exceptions, none of which directly effect me.

2) Try to think about this with one's adult brain. (Planigale: "The adult part of me says this is wrong.")​

So, those things which actually do real harm can be dealt with (via screengrabs) by those to whom the harm is done, if they so choose. As for me, I need considerable improvement in this regard to sort out theoretical harm from real harm.

Otherwise, there is the ignore list. So, DougM, good for IIP/AI to take this stand.

While I don't think that we should engage in a tit for tat war with the guilters, we should keep in mind that some of them probably have some severe mental problems and may be dangerous.. One in particular comes to mind is Grahame Rhodes...aka Grimbal. I've read actual death threats from him.BR Mull had more than a few screws loose, but he seems to have disappeared so I hope the good doctor got the help he clearly needed.
I have absolutely NO desire to seek revenge or gloat over them. That said, knowing who they are and what they have said may be useful for the authorities. Most of them I expect will fade away. But I do worry about the few that might have problems moving on.

My guess is that Amanda doesn't really wish to seek revenge against the nutters on the net. But I'm also sure she wants the freedom to go on with her life without having to look over her shoulders or tormented by vile comments of what could easily be described as a hate group.
 
I wonder just how many of those Britons who insist on lying to people about the evidence against Raffaele would care to be introduced to the Italian legal system via the diffamazione laws of Italy? They're pretty broad I hear, Mignini was filing those investigations against Americans during his heyday and I recall Alan Dershowitz claiming that the Kerchers could take Amanda's book money somehow...

I myself care more for freedom of expression than libel suits, but considering the number of Colpevolesti who sat back and cheered when Mignini was threatening those suits--or never spoke against them--it would kinda be poetic justice, would it not? :)

I can't believe I'm saying this about a Harvard professor, but Dershowitz really didn't have clue about much of what he said about this case. He was nothing really more than an attention whore. My guess is that he never was diligent about doing his homework. Because if he did, there is no way he could make those comments... unless..this explanation is far worse. He knew but didn't care because he got to be on TV.
 
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