Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[davefoc]

I think it can be logically proved beyond any doubt Mignini knew they were uninvolved after interviewing Rudy. He would have been asked questions he could not answer, and it would have been obvious he was fabricating. The story Mignini brought was specific. Mignini was between a rock and a hard place. His career was over if he released another three suspects. Instead he relied on the normal process of convicting all people at the first trial, and his friend Massei obliged. I don't know if he was a friend of Micheli...
I am more than happy to have holes picked in this argument of course.

Thanks for the response. The converse argument is that Mignini developed an unfalsifiable belief and all new information that didn't fit his preconceptions was just rejected. This seems like a very tricky area. How do you ever know the truth about somebody else's thought process?

As you say, perhaps Mignini became aware of evidence that was so powerful that it had to be that he understood the unlikely nature of his case against Knox and Sollecito. However the amazing power of confirmation bias and self interest bias to cloud our thinking seems to make rejecting the idea that Mignini wasn't a true believer difficult.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I am not quite sure what to make of her words

Maybe she can get the truth out of him. Up until this point, Rudy Guede has had very good legal counsel. I doubt the lawyer would be in favour of this.

Bill Williams,

I agree. Rudy is the only person who might know everything that actually happened that night (assuming he has not conned himself). If Arline Kercher wants to talk to him to get him to tell her what really happened, she is made of sterner stuff than I am. (Although I have defended the Kerchers at times, I am also someone who has often felt frustrated by their behavior.)

 

[platonov]

It was pretty dim of him to tell all and sundry that he was the nephew of his countryman, martyred national hero Patrice Lumumba, and even dub himself "Patrick," wouldn't you agree? He's no relation at all.

I thought about this the other day, when I happened to hear a quiz question on TV about Patrice Lumumba.

I'd say it was not only dim of Patrick (Diya) Lumumba to make this false claim of close familial relationship to Patrice Lumumba - it also perhaps offers insights into his character. It suggests that he might be something of a fantasist who has little problem lying and exaggerating if he thinks it might be to his personal benefit.

I don’t know if this is even true but if it is I have no problem with a Congolese emigrant in Italy [running a bar] called Lumumba
claiming the famous Patrice [another uppity ****** that was put in his place] as his ‘uncle’. Good for him if it helps.

I certainly don’t subscribe to the groupie worldview – to portray this is a heinous crime whilst trying to downplay the actions of the lowlife that falsely accused him of rape/murder to hide her own culpability.
Your mileage obviously varies.

 

[Desert Fox]

Bill Williams,

I agree. Rudy is the only person who might know everything that actually happened that night (assuming he has not conned himself). If Arline Kercher wants to talk to him to get him to tell her what really happened, she is made of sterner stuff than I am. (Although I have defended the Kerchers at times, I am also someone who has often felt frustrated by their behavior.)

It is pretty sad when I think Omar Ballard is a better person than somebody because at least he fessed up to doing it alone.

 

[Desert Fox]

And what of the various judges that were involved? Was self interest the only driver? Perhaps they believed protecting the credibility of a prosecutor was more important that justice or truth? Again I don't even have a good hunch as to what was going on with regard to what they truly believed.

This reminds me of something I wrote elsewhere:
Whatever is written in the motivation reports will have nothing to do with what they spoken about in chambers.
I don't know if it will be white wash or if they will actually try to present something close to the facts.

I would love to have been a fly on the wall on the various conversations between judges.
I would not be surprised if they had a private message from Nencini stating that he basically "did as he was told"
As well, I would not be surprised if Amanda's lawyer's comment about the ECHR was not more powerful that they ever admit.
It actually reminded them that their political games will make them look like fools if the case ever gets to the ECHR.
Might very well have made them decide to cut their losses.

 

[platonov]

I have been trying to write up some comments summarizing my perspective on yesterday's events, and I'm not finding it easy. It was an incredible day. I'd like to take some time to think about it before I say too much.

Public perception was a huge factor in this case. It led to outside pressure, which stiffened the resolve of the authorities to protect themselves from embarrassment, but also created a credibility problem that would not go away. In the end, I believe, the high court realized they were trapped in an untenable position because of public perception. They did the only thing that would stop the hemorrhaging of their credibility: face facts, and exonerate these defendants.

Everyone who supported Amanda and Raffaele helped to shape the public's understanding. I know how grateful Amanda and her family are for the support they received from so many people over the course of a long ordeal. We can all feel proud of the final, just result we helped to bring about.

Yea
Whatever disposed this cassation panel to annul the convictions it certainly wasn’t the cretinous, xenophobic racist online campaign in the English speaking world.
That’s not to say it didn’t have some effect. Some, from a certain demographic, fell for it but for any right thinking person it’s nature and the fact it was never repudiated (and was actually encouraged) by the killer’s family was instructive.

One Q remains perhaps – can a few more dollars be made or has the gravy train that was MK’s murder run its course.
There might be a market for the images of the victims naked corpse. Given the nature of Britney’s fan base it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility.

 

[LondonJohn]

Bill Williams,

I agree. Rudy is the only person who might know everything that actually happened that night (assuming he has not conned himself). If Arline Kercher wants to talk to him to get him to tell her what really happened, she is made of sterner stuff than I am. (Although I have defended the Kerchers at times, I am also someone who has often felt frustrated by their behavior.)

Perhaps Arline Kercher thinks that Guede might crumble under the moral weight of speaking to the mother of the victim, and tell her the unvarnished truth.

But if that is Arline Kercher's reasoning behind a wish to meet with Guede, then I think she's badly (and sadly) mistaken. I think that Guede has already demonstrated many of the character traits of a sociopath, in the lack of empathy he's shown throughout - coupled with disgusting falsified attempts to paint himself as the compassionate Samaritan figure in his bogus narrative of the murder. I think Guede will have no compunction in continuing to spin lies to suit himself. And because of that, I can't see any value to Arline Kercher putting herself through the emotional rollercoaster of meeting with him.

If Arline Kercher is searching for answers, she could do far worse than wait for the SC motivations report, speak with Dalla Vedova and Bongiorno, and speak with the likes of David Gill. It must be awful for the Kercher family in terms of the likely cognitive dissonance they're experiencing, made worse by the false certainties they were peddled by Maresca and the prosecutors. I hope they'll find peace in the understanding that Guede, almost certainly acting alone, killed Meredith Kercher.

 

[LondonJohn]

Yea
Whatever disposed this cassation panel to annul the convictions it certainly wasn’t the cretinous, xenophobic racist online campaign in the English speaking world.
That’s not to say it didn’t have some effect. Some, from a certain demographic, fell for it but for any right thinking person it’s nature and the fact it was never repudiated (and was actually encouraged) by the killer’s family was instructive.

One Q remains perhaps – can a few more dollars be made or has the gravy train that was MK’s murder run its course.
There might be a market for the images of the victims naked corpse. Given the nature of Britney’s fan base it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility.

What a disgusting set of opinions. Shame.

 

[Kauffer]

Thank you Kauffer. The book on Italian justice sounds interesting. But given how insane their laws are there, I have to wonder if she wants to open herself up for further attacks.

I say - All power to her elbow! Go for it! Make a difference! Do good work!

 

[Numbers]

Thanks for the response. The converse argument is that Mignini developed an unfalsifiable belief and all new information that didn't fit his preconceptions was just rejected. This seems like a very tricky area. How do you ever know the truth about somebody else's thought process?

As you say, perhaps Mignini became aware of evidence that was so powerful that it had to be that he understood the unlikely nature of his case against Knox and Sollecito. However the amazing power of confirmation bias and self interest bias to cloud our thinking seems to make rejecting the idea that Mignini wasn't a true believer difficult.

Remember to put on protective gloves if you enter into the mind of Mignini.

 

[LondonJohn]

Regarding the possibility of the new SC ruling contradicting the earlier SC ruling that Guede acted in concert with others:

It should be remembered that the (fast track) trial process which established the "judicial fact" that Guede acted with others was made in the bizarre circumstance where the prosecution, defence and courts all readily agreed that there were multiple attackers, and therefore this element was clearly never properly tested. I wonder therefore whether the latest SC ruling will resolve any potential conflict by pointing out this anomaly, and by ruling that in its view the evidence is also wholly compatible with Guede acting alone.

 

[Strozzi]

Mignini, Stefanoni, and others are probably worried that there will be an independent investigation that will show their collusion.

What files do you think Stefanoni should retain and what should she destroy (that she hasn't already destroyed)?

Suppose she has files showing that the DNA on the bra clasp does not match Giacomo and she failed to inform the Nencini court or defense of this. Should she keep it or destroy it?

Suppose she has files which reveal that she ran a DNA test on the semen stain and it matches Guede. Keep the files or destroy them? Suppose her notes show she informed Mignini of this? Should she keep the notes or burn them?

If Stefanoni experiences a garage fire, what would you make of it?

 

[codyjuneau]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...er-about-italian-courts-verdict-10141391.html

"Seven and a half years after the murder of Ms Kercher in Perugia, and a number of legal proceedings, Franceso Maresca, the lawyer representing the Kerchers, said yesterday: “The family is in shock after the verdict. They don’t wish to make any other declarations. I’ve had to explain to them there are now no avenues open to them. There is a great sense of bitterness.”"

Sure there are:

1) Demand all the evidence in the cases is released.

2) Sit down with Peter Gill and let him explain the forensic evidence from the complete case file.

3) Insist on an independent review of the conduct of the case.

After all, they've always wanted to know the truth.

4. Fire their idiot lawyer and get a good one.

.
5. Then sue the idiot one.

Cody
.

 

[platonov]

Yeah.

Killers have walked before and will walk again.
Must be hard to take for the Kercher family.


I see some posters are wondering what to do now. The option of attacking the ‘guliters’, cops, witnesses etc and more importantly the victim’s family and the victim herself long into the future is always available.

And since he maintains he was the last person to have had a date with Meredith, perhaps the Kerchers view him as someone who was close to their daughter/sister.
Have the Kerchers ever contacted Meredith's actual Italian boyfriend, Giacomo?

That's how its done

 

[Kauffer]

Yea
Whatever disposed this cassation panel to annul the convictions it certainly wasn’t the cretinous, xenophobic racist online campaign in the English speaking world.
That’s not to say it didn’t have some effect. Some, from a certain demographic, fell for it but for any right thinking person it’s nature and the fact it was never repudiated (and was actually encouraged) by the killer’s family was instructive.

One Q remains perhaps – can a few more dollars be made or has the gravy train that was MK’s murder run its course.
There might be a market for the images of the victims naked corpse. Given the nature of Britney’s fan base it’s not beyond the bounds of possibility.

By the way, I was delighted to see that your interpretation of Raffaele's trial tactics - 'thrown under a bus'; 'taken away her alibi' etc etc, resonated with the honourable justices of the ISC and were clearly and fully reflected in their deliberations and the judgement they delivered.

Oh, wait a mo! That's not quite right is it?? Hahahaha.

 

[carbonjam72]

I have a suggestion for the Kerchers actually. . . .
Find a private investigator who is bilingual and has a reputation for honesty. As him or her to investigate the case and accept whatever the PI tells them.

In Italy?

 

[toto]

old posts revisited: Douglas Preston

Reading some of the posts from the very beginning I was struck by this link which I know most people are familiar with. But if I were to respond on comment sections to criticism of Ms Knox's calunnia and her interview with Mignini I will quite likely link to this!

http://johnbakersblog.co.uk/the-monster-of-florence/

 

[acbytesla]

Mignini, Stefanoni, and others are probably worried that there will be an independent investigation that will show their collusion.

What files do you think Stefanoni should retain and what should she destroy (that she hasn't already destroyed)?

Suppose she has files showing that the DNA on the bra clasp does not match Giacomo and she failed to inform the Nencini court or defense of this. Should she keep it or destroy it?

Suppose she has files which reveal that she ran a DNA test on the semen stain and it matches Guede. Keep the files or destroy them? Suppose her notes show she informed Mignini of this? Should she keep the notes or burn them?

If Stefanoni experiences a garage fire, what would you make of it?

I really think nothing will happen to them. When you realize that both were promoted and how screwed up the justice system is in Italy, I don't think they are worried. The judges party is still strong..(I think) It is really all about politics..and who among us really understand the internal politics of Italy?

 

[Samson]

Thanks for the response. The converse argument is that Mignini developed an unfalsifiable belief and all new information that didn't fit his preconceptions was just rejected. This seems like a very tricky area. How do you ever know the truth about somebody else's thought process?

As you say, perhaps Mignini became aware of evidence that was so powerful that it had to be that he understood the unlikely nature of his case against Knox and Sollecito. However the amazing power of confirmation bias and self interest bias to cloud our thinking seems to make rejecting the idea that Mignini wasn't a true believer difficult.

Agreed it seems extreme to ascribe such malevolence to Mignini, but he was sustaining a principle there were three people at the scene of the murder when he was interviewing Guede. Guede's lawyer Biscotti emerged from that meeting saying Guede named nobody because there was no one to name. That is logically so completely opposed to the presence of Knox and Sollecito it points to pragmatism by Mignini. We know for certain Guede did not name them because he knew they weren't there and would be released. This is normal, if you are innocent it is quickly discovered and you are released.
Unless some one can square that circle of illogicality, I will always suggest Mignini knew they were innocent. I know classical guilter theory is Guede was scared of being ganged up on, but that doesn't wash, because his position is he was only a witness. I need more thought to develop this proof, give me time...

 

[anglolawyer]

Mignini, Stefanoni, and others are probably worried that there will be an independent investigation that will show their collusion.

What files do you think Stefanoni should retain and what should she destroy (that she hasn't already destroyed)?

Suppose she has files showing that the DNA on the bra clasp does not match Giacomo and she failed to inform the Nencini court or defense of this. Should she keep it or destroy it?

Suppose she has files which reveal that she ran a DNA test on the semen stain and it matches Guede. Keep the files or destroy them? Suppose her notes show she informed Mignini of this? Should she keep the notes or burn them?

If Stefanoni experiences a garage fire, what would you make of it?

Machiavelli did tell us, when his side was doing the gloating, that the law requires (why?) all materials used in unrepeatable tests to be destroyed. So she has probably already started rummaging through the files. If I were her, I'd burn down the lab, claim the insurance and head for the Austrian border