The Historical Jesus III

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Yes, but dejudge is not one of them.

But you weren't talking about dejudge but "the mythicists" and how the mythicists as a whole have this "idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land"

Again not all mythicists are going for the "purely metaphysical being" idea


As I said before even Ehrman defines the Christ myth as saying "no historical Jesus worthy of the name existed" ie even if there was a flesh and blood Jesus "he had virtually nothing to do with the founding of Christianity" more or less the SAME definition mythicist John M. Robertson used back in 1900.

Heck, John M. Robertson was wiling have three difference "Jesuses" being woven into an already existing myth including one that "preached a political doctrine subversive of the Roman rule, and . . . thereby met his death".


Also as I pointed out before with Walsh's "The theory that Jesus was originally a myth is called the Christ-myth theory, and the theory that he was an historical individual is called the historical Jesus theory" position GA Wells current position which has a historical Jesus would still be mythicist because Paul's Jesus puling from an older myth.

Carrier is going for what he regards as the "purest" of the Christ Myth with the "purely metaphysical being"idea but it is NOT the only Christ Myth out there.
 
But you weren't talking about dejudge but "the mythicists" and how the mythicists as a whole have this "idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land"

Again not all mythicists are going for the "purely metaphysical being" idea.
I did not use the expression "as a whole". Nor would I have used it because more than most people here I have argued that there are various types of Mythicists. I am in fact referring to the "pure" ones like your Teacher. What I stated was
Unlike the mythicists, the Christians simply can't reconcile themselves to the idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land. That makes nonsense of every part of their Christology.
If you want to amend that to "strong" or "pure" mythicists, fine.
 
I did not use the expression "as a whole". Nor would I have used it because more than most people here I have argued that there are various types of Mythicists. I am in fact referring to the "pure" ones like your Teacher. What I stated was

Originally Posted by Craig B
Unlike the mythicists, the Christians simply can't reconcile themselves to the idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land. That makes nonsense of every part of their Christology



Craig, please look at your own post above, you even quote it yourself (it's highlighted above). What you actually say there in unmistakable words is "Unlike the mythicists ... (who) reconcile themselves to the idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land." ... that is a blanket statement encompassing all the people you call "mythicists" ... you make absolutely no effort to add any caution at all of saying "unlike SOME mythicists ..."

... your own statement clearly has you referring to all mythicists, not just to some or a named few like Carrier and Doherty.

Now you were asked about the fact that you incautiously used a blanket statement encompassing any mythicists, and your response was to try to deny it and claim you had not said it, even though it's there for all to see in your own words. Not cool.
 
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[/I]


Craig, please look at your own post above, you even quote it yourself (it's highlighted above). What you actually say there in unmistakable words is "Unlike the mythicists ... (who) reconcile themselves to the idea that Jesus was a purely metaphysical being living in a sub lunar never land." ... that is a blanket statement encompassing all the people you call "mythicists" ... you make absolutely no effort to add any caution at all of saying "unlike SOME mythicists ..."

... your own statement clearly has you referring to all mythicists, not just to some or a named few like Carrier and Doherty.

Now you were asked about the fact that you incautiously used a blanket statement encompassing any mythicists, and your response was to try to deny it and claim you had not said it, even though it's there for all to see in your own words. Not cool.

Right, and as I have pointed out and Craig has ignored there is this gap between Carrier's minimal historical Jesus and his minimal mythical Jesus or for lack of a better term the ahistorical Jesus.

As I have pointed out before various works fall into the this category:

* John Robertson's 1900 idea that the Gospel Jesus was a composite character or that a person inspired by Paul's writings took up the name Jesus, tried to preach his own version of Paul's teachings

* The idea expressed by Remsberg that there was a Jesus but his following wasn't an identifiable movement until Paul and later the writers of the Gospels got a hold of it.

* G. A. Wells' Jesus Legend (1996) on with its mythical Paul Jesus + 1st century teacher who was not executed

* Dan Barker's "Other skeptics deny that the Jesus character portrayed in the New Testament existed, but that there could have been a first century personality after whom the exaggerated myth was pattered." (2006 Losing Faith in Faith pg 372)

I should mention that other "mythicists" like Mead and Allegro would fall into both Carrier's and Ehrman's historical Jesus categories.

Both sides have throw around Christ myth and "mythicist" around to the point they don't really have any meaning. Neither side can even agree on what the terms even mean.

Paul R Eddy & Gregory A. Boyd cant even keep the defintion straight in their own book:

Scholars such as Bruno Bauer, Arthur Drews, and G. A. Wells have argued that the Jesus tradition is virtually—perhaps entirely—fictional in nature (i.e., “legendary” as we are using the term)....Some scholars we could include in this category, such as Robert Price, would back off this thesis slightly and argue that we simply lack sufficient information to decide whether a historical Jesus existed. Here, a sort of “Jesus agnosticism” emerges. - page 24-25

and yet latter on page 165 they say this

"As we have noted, some legendary-Jesus theorists argue that, while it is at least possible, if not likely, an actual historical person named Jesus existed, he is so shrouded in legendary material that we can know very little about him. Others (i.e, Christ myth theorists) argue that we have no good reason to believe there ever was an actual historical person behind the legend."

They seem to fuzzing what the originally said regarding “Jesus agnosticism”at the beginning of the book. It doesn't help that for them Legendary-Jesus also includes:

The work of scholars such as Rudolf Bultmann and Burton Mack suggests that we have enough evidence plausibly to conclude that an actual historical person named Jesus existed. But, they insist, the reports we have of him are so unreliable and saturated with legend and “myth” that we can confidently ascertain very little historical information about him.

and

An increasingly common view among New Testament scholars today— especially scholars who stand in the post-Bultmannian tradition—is that historical research can indeed disclose a core of historical facts about Jesus. But, they argue, the Jesus we find at this historical core is significantly different from the legendary view presented in the New Testament.


Sadly they shift between legendary-Jesus theorist and Christ myth theorist so many times it is not clear they are really arguing against.
 
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I must make it absolutely clear that I have no association with any theory [HJ or MJ] where it is put forward the notion that Paul in the Pauline Corpus was a figure of history and the Pauline Corpus was composed c50-60 CE.

Based on the INTERNAL evidence of multiple writings of antiquity it would appear that Paul, the Pauline Curches, the Pauline Corpus and the Pauline REVEALED Gospel was UNKNOWN by Christians and Non Christians of antiquity up to at least c 180 CE.

The Jesus story and cult appear to have been initiated AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple and AFTER the writings attributed to Philo, Pliny the Elder, Josephus, Tacitus and Suetonius or AFTER c 110 CE.

The Pauline Corpus was most likely composed in the 2nd century or later and AFTER stories of Jesus were already known and composed.

Christian writers ADMITTED that the Pauline writers KNEW of gLuke and Revelation of John and commended the former.
 
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The gospels were simply Roman propaganda:
jesus2.jpg

jesus3.jpg

Stones_Cry_Out.jpg

Simon_John.jpg

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Matthew 23-25:1: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23-25:1&version=NKJV
Josephus’ Jewish War Book 6, Chapter 5: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-6.html
(Feel free to find other translations)

•We are comparing 8.8% of Matthew to 0.9% segment of the Jewish War by Josephus.
•So that’s only 1,611 words vs. 2,092….
•Do we have 18 near-verbatim matches here or not – even after translation from Greek to English?
•If not then put a tick or cross next to each one and then explain!
•Why is there a Jesus who – just like Jesus Christ – says Woe 8 times, “gave up the ghost” before he was crucified and scourged? And

why do we have all these other matching words/phrases in the same texts as the 2 Jesuses?
•Is it coincidence, design or 18 invalid verbatim matches due to 18 mistranslations or some other explanation?
•Has Josephus seemingly used the gospels (or vice versa) in a semi-plagiarism attempt?

1) Jesus
2) Jerusalem
3) “Woe”, “woe” multiple times – originally x 8 in fact (not 7!)
4) both crucified and scourged (Jesus ben Ananus: “taken up and given a severe number of stripes”)
5) both “gave up the ghost” (an attribute of Jesus from Luke I think)
6) “four winds” (based on the Anemoi)
7) “false prophet”
9) Bridegroom (or “Bridegroom and bride” cross-referenced to Revelation in the context of “lamps”)
10) clouds
11) east, west (only those 2 directions of the compass)
12) sun will be darkened/sun-setting
13) clothes/garments
14) earthquake/quaking
15) famine
16) robbers/thieves
17) signs
18) temple/holy house

image.jpg

woe.jpg

image.jpg
 
Sadly they shift between legendary-Jesus theorist and Christ myth theorist so many times it is not clear they are really arguing against.
Tosh. I have stated in these threads many times, that "mythicism" appears in two main forms.

A "weak" mythicism in which it is merely stated that we don't have enough information about Jesus to aver that he existed as a real person; therefore he may have been "mythical" in the loose sense of "not authentic". I am sympathetic to this view.

A "strong" mythicism, like that of your Teacher and others who assert that the "Jesus" figure was constructed in its entirety from pre-existing (eg "sublunary") myths. I think this is completely mistaken.

My complaint has been that opponents of HJ consist of a mishmash of both tribes of mythicists and that it is impossible to treat their arguments coherently. We have moreover the assertion that the entire Christian canon is not merely "myth" but is a collection of intentional lies and forgeries concocted by madmen for incomprehensible purposes many centuries after the events it relates.

ETA I notice a strange new contribution to the debate, that the Gospels are simply Roman propaganda. I don't agree with that either.
 
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To claim Jesus the strictly human rabbi more likely did not exist remains a longer stretch than to claim he more likely did exist -- given the more plausible scenario that emerges from the slim data we have.

I wonder if anyone here who's trying to be "objective", but still feverishly maintaining this normal rabbi never existed, will ever answer the simple question "What does the available data indicate is the MORE LIKELY scenario?" And NO, I'm not asking for an answer with some sort of proof -- nothing like that is possible for about 50% of ancient history -- Get real! -- I'm asking for an honest reply as to which scenario seems the MORE LIKELY given the slim data we have.

Philological, stylistic, linguistic and stylometric******* analysis has yielded a high degree of likelihood (certainty is not found in the modern analysis of ancient history, since such up-to-date historiography deals responsibly in degrees of likelihood instead) that the earliest textual layer is comprised of the very few Jesus quotes in 1 Corinthians, the narrative references in 1 Corinthians and the other six authentic Paulines*, a lot but not all of the narrative material in the shorter Vaticanus/Sinaiticus version of GMark******** and the parallel sayings in GMatthew/GLuke (sometimes called "Q" for "Quelle" = source) -- plus maybe the Gospel of Thomas (although serious scholars are split on that). This earliest textual layer not only shows distinct earmarks of oral transmission, but is the layer on which the consensus of modern professional scholarship bases its historical Jesus model. Amplifying these earliest layers are key non-apologetic pieces of data in Josephus's Antiquities XX (not Antiqs. XVIII) and Tacitus's Annals.

The seven authentic Paulines do indeed make several references to Jesus as a real person, including direct references to areas where dishonest mythers claim complete silence: parentage**, life events***, ministry****, apostles***** and betrayal******.

Mythers also conflate the miracle man of the later textual layers in the New Testament with the strictly human rabbi found in its earliest textual layers -- and also in non-apologetics like Tacitus and in Josephus's "Antiquities", Chapter XX. Mythers evidently need an elementary primer on where the most up-to-date textual scholarship stands today among the professional peer-vetted academic researchers. That's not hard to find out. Go to any academic library, or go to the web sites of any secular institutions of higher learning.

What emerges from these earliest textual layers is a perfectly mundane biography. Jesus was a Jewish kid from Nazareth, whose family's livelihood was largely dependent on his father's wood-working business. Jesus learned the family craft but left home relatively young and joined John the Baptist's group, where he was baptized and adopted an outlook that was initially largely apocalyptic. But when John was executed, Jesus changed the focus of the group somewhat, becoming an itinerant rabbi himself and teaching by sayings and parables. His teaching folded in certain notions like the last shall be first and giving up one's life for others as part of the message. He was also a folk healer who was perhaps a bit luckier than most, possibly because he was a bit better read than most, although still an autodidact, more likely.

The followers he accrued were probably attracted to him because his notions of no one deserving ostracism of any kind seemed pretty genuine. He was not impeccable in this respect; it took a while for him to accept those outside what passed for Israel at the time. But there seem to be glimmerings of a more pluralist approach as we move toward his execution. In fact, in many respects, the gulf between the outlook of society around him versus his own increasingly egalitarian one grew so wide by the time he was arrested that it is arguable that that gulf may be among the very largest for any cultural/social reformer throughout human history. Purely in terms of such a gulf with one's contemporaries, only the experiences of Gotama and Socrates seem comparable. Hence the strong retrospective notoriety that has developed for all three.

Jesus does seem to have been a party man, unlike John the Baptist. I have a feeling he would probably have been very accessible and affable, but his immediate disciples always worried (not without cause) about his spreading himself too thin. They were probably very protective of him, and even though one might have found him easy to talk to at a party, one or two of his handlers would probably have whisked him away after a few minutes. He frequently over-extended himself, and sometimes a whole day would go by with him totally alone to compensate.

He internalized strongly a distinct strain of antipathy in Hebrew culture and various founding texts in Judaica toward much in the credit/debt world. On the one hand, we have certain notions in those founding texts such as the Jubilee and forgiveness of debt, etc., while on the other, Jesus seems to have internalized these themes in the founding texts in his confronting this whole moneyed class at the Temple.

After the confrontation, he realized that his days were now numbered, and he arranged a commemorative meal with his disciples -- perhaps choosing a meal as a way to remember him by because he himself had been so active in feeding and healing the poor?

The brouhaha that resulted from the ruckus in the Temple got the implacable Pilate's attention, not because he had any concern about the functioning of the Temple as such but because any disturbance at all didn't fit the rigid decorum he ruthlessly maintained throughout the region. While the makers and shakers in upper-class Jewish society did not lift a finger to prevent Jesus's execution (many were simply terrified of Pilate and his record number of crucifixions), the execution was still conceived, initiated, pursued, carried out (right outside Jerusalem) and concluded entirely by the Roman occupation under Tiberius.

Jesus was not the strongest guy physically, and a few hours on the cross was all it took to kill him. His body disappeared, as did most of those who were crucified.

End of story.

Intrusive magic accounts of stuff like the virgin birth, or most of the miracles*********, or the physical post-resurrection appearances, etc., all show later stylistic earmarks and don't appear to come at all from the same early textual layers used for the professional historical model outlined above. However -- typically -- it is the later layers that Jesus mythers, in their ignorance of the latest textual analysis, always latch on to show that "Jesus never existed". Well, duh. The magic man who turns water into wine, or is born of a virgin(!), etc., etc., probably never existed, yeah. And that has diddly-squat to do with the itinerant rabbi who was a vulnerable human being and got nailed up by the Romans and has ended up being studied in greater depth by serious secular researchers today. Such a social outcast would naturally show up in relatively few non-apologetic accounts. That's no surprise. And if he started a following, it's completely typical of such a figure that we might find more material on him from his followers than from non-apologetic writers. Still, there remain those few non-apologetic references to this guy cited above, sometimes distinctly unsympathetic, and they in fact confirm the powerless human rabbi duly found in the earliest textual layering deduced by modern textual analysis. So that's why Jesus is so obscure. Again, duh.

The miracle claims made for Jesus in the later textual layers are extravagant, yes, and their probable a-historicity are indeed confirmed by the paucity of any such claims in the non-apologetic materials. But there's nothing extravagant or out of the ordinary in a mundane human troublemaker who was nailed up by a militaristic occupation. Nor are such mundane details missing in the non-apologetics. Different strands of modern historical inquiry all converge on the likelihood of such a mundane figure. It's not just one line of research that does this. They also put any kind of miracle worker in considerable doubt.

What does all that data suggest is the MORE LIKELY less implausible scenario? Don't fixate on this document or that document. Assess the documentary field as a whole. That's what the professionals do. And they have painstakingly developed an historical model despite a lot of strenuous unhelpful pushback from fundies: Jesus was strictly human, a clearly historical figure -- and without a whiff of magic about him. Duh.

Thoughts?

Stone

======================

* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52–54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52–54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55–58 AD)

** Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

*** Phillipians 2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
1 Corinthians 15:3
that he was buried

**** 1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

***** Galatians 1:18
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

****** 1 Corinthians 11:23
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in
remembrance of me."

******* the sort of analysis that outed Joe Klein as the author of a politics book some years back

******** The Gospel of Mark is in several versions: the most reliable are the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus mss.

********* Most of the miracles are in the later layers, but a handful are in the earlier ones, and those earlier ones are exclusively healings, suggesting that Jesus the human rabbi was actually a pretty good healer whose prowess simply got exaggerated
 
My complaint has been that opponents of HJ consist of a mishmash of both tribes of mythicists and that it is impossible to treat their arguments coherently. We have moreover the assertion that the entire Christian canon is not merely "myth" but is a collection of intentional lies and forgeries concocted by madmen for incomprehensible purposes many centuries after the events it relates.

ETA I notice a strange new contribution to the debate, that the Gospels are simply Roman propaganda. I don't agree with that either.

As I have said before the HJ side is just as big a mess.

Efforts to make to make Matthew and Luke agree alone produce a lot of nonsense as documented in Richard Carrier's The Date of the Nativity in Luke (6th ed., 2011)

Then you have pull the hat over the eyes, stick fingers in ears and go la la la real loud regarding the problems with known history the Sanhedrin and Pontius Pilate trials have

Then you have Thallus which is on par with Don Quixote's "magnificent steed" - why in the name of sanity does any scholar even consider this thing as evidence? :boggled:

This non considering the HJ that Jesus was in reality a Buddhist or "there has been a wealth of less serious literature about Jesus as a spaceman." The Oahspe bible of 1881 went one step further and actual uses the term 'star ship' for the vehicles going between the afterlife dimensions and this plane of existence with angels and god himself mere travelers :boggled:

Let's fact it the HJ side has just as much silliness as the Christ myth and as demonstrated by Jack Chick's little tracts has stuff as (if not more) Jacob's Ladder meets Eraserhead bonkers as anything Zeitgeist ever made.

In Jack Chick's world Communism was created by the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church was behind Lincoln's assassination. And those are the more rational goofy things that he cranks out. :boggled:
 
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.... Most of the miracles are in the later layers, but a handful are in the earlier ones, and those earlier ones are exclusively healings, suggesting that Jesus the human rabbi was actually a pretty good healer whose prowess simply got exaggerated

The Christian Bible is a major source of fiction, discrepancies, contradictions, historical problems, falsehood, lies, forgeries, false attribution and events which did not and could not have happened.

The Christian Bible is completely useless to argue for an historical Jesus [Jesus with a human father].

The Christian Bible spefically states Jesus was a Transfiguring Water Walker Born of a Ghost and was God Creator.

The Christian Bible was used in antiquity to ARGUE AGAINST an historical Jesus.

Please See "Against Heresies" attributed to Irenaeus and "Refutation Against All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus.

The HJ argument is dead due to lack of historical data for the last 1800 years.

The historical Jesus was a KNOWN established LIE since at least the writing of "Against Heresies" or c 180 CE.
 
Mythers also conflate the miracle man of the later textual layers in the New Testament with the strictly human rabbi found in its earliest textual layers -- and also in non-apologetics like Tacitus and in Josephus's "Antiquities", Chapter XX.

This ignores the fact that our oldest copy of Tacitus has been tampered with and there are irregularities with Chapter XX that indicate the "who was called Christ" is odds on an inserted gloss.

Mythers evidently need an elementary primer on where the most up-to-date textual scholarship stands today among the professional peer-vetted academic researchers.

You mean like

Richard Carrier (2014) "The Prospect of a Christian Interpolation in Tacitus, Annals 15.44" Vigiliae Christianae, Volume 68, Issue 3, pages 264 – 283

Richard Carrier. "Origen, Eusebius, and the Accidental Interpolation in Josephus, Jewish Antiquities 20.200.” Journal of Early Christian Studies 20.4 (Winter 2012)?

That's not hard to find out. Go to any academic library, or go to the web sites of any secular institutions of higher learning

Yes, actually getting a hold of and READING Richard Carrier's PEER REVIEWED SCHOLARLY PUBLISHED On the Historicity of Jesus instead of latest the likes of D.M. Murdock has cranked out or blowing off Carrier as a "guru" is an excellent idea. ;)

So what is stopping the people here from doing exactly that? :D
 
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As I have said before the HJ side is just as big a mess.

Efforts to make to make Matthew and Luke agree alone produce a lot of nonsense as documented in Richard Carrier's The Date of the Nativity in Luke (6th ed., 2011)

Then you have pull the hat over the eyes, stick fingers in ears and go la la la real loud regarding the problems with known history the Sanhedrin and Pontius Pilate trials have

Then you have Thallus which is on par with Don Quixote's "magnificent steed" - why in the name of sanity does any scholar even consider this thing as evidence? :boggled:

This non considering the HJ that Jesus was in reality a Buddhist or "there has been a wealth of less serious literature about Jesus as a spaceman." The Oahspe bible of 1881 went one step further and actual uses the term 'star ship' for the vehicles going between the afterlife dimensions and this plane of existence with angels and god himself mere travelers :boggled:

Let's fact it the HJ side has just as much silliness as the Christ myth and as demonstrated by Jack Chick's little tracts has stuff as (if not more) Jacob's Ladder meets Eraserhead bonkers as anything Zeitgeist ever made.

In Jack Chick's world Communism was created by the Catholic Church and the Catholic Church was behind Lincoln's assassination. And those are the more rational goofy things that he cranks out. :boggled:
Nobody here is trying to make the Matthew and Luke birth stories agree. It has been plainly stated that these are mythical elaborations, most recently by Stone in his excellent contribution.
Intrusive magic accounts of stuff like the virgin birth, or most of the miracles*********, or the physical post-resurrection appearances, etc., all show later stylistic earmarks and don't appear to come at all from the same early textual layers used for the professional historical model outlined above. However -- typically -- it is the later layers that Jesus mythers, in their ignorance of the latest textual analysis, always latch on to show that "Jesus never existed".
I don't think anyone's invoking Thallus either. And, thank God, Jack Chick doesn't contribute to this Forum.
 
The seven authentic Paulines do indeed make several references to Jesus as a real person, including direct references to areas where dishonest mythers claim complete silence: parentage**, life events***, ministry****, apostles***** and betrayal******.



Without going through the whole of your very long post, all of which you have posted in exactly that same long form before (several times), just re. your mention of evidence in Paul's letters -

- can you quote the passages in those letters which you say describe Jesus a real human person from his parentage**, life events***, ministry****, apostles***** and betrayal******.
What do the letters actually say about any those "real human" features of Jesus, and how does Paul say he knew any of those things?
 
Nobody here is trying to make the Matthew and Luke birth stories agree. It has been plainly stated that these are mythical elaborations, most recently by Stone in his excellent contribution.

Again, you display intellectual dishonesty.

Stone is attempting to use the Christian Bible as an historical source even though it is clearly stated that Jesus was a Transfiguring Water Walker who was Born of a Ghost in gMatthew and gLuke.

The Christian Bible is completely useless to argue for an historical Jesus.

It is most laughable that you admit gMatthew and gLuke are mythical elaborations but still use them as credible historical sources.

Jesus of Nazareth is a mythical elaboration and was ALWAYS without historical data.


Craig B said:
I don't think anyone's invoking Thallus either. And, thank God, Jack Chick doesn't contribute to this Forum.

By thanking God, you have inadvertently confirmed that you either Believe there is a God or is a fake atheist.

Atheists do not thank God for anything.

People who thank God typically BELIEVE [without evidence] that the Christian Bible is an historical source.
 
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At this point, Craig B should have already come to realization that his argument is worthless [without historical data].

Craig B merely BELIEVES Jesus of Nazareth existed because it says so in the Christian Bible.
 
Without going through the whole of your very long post, all of which you have posted in exactly that same long form before (several times), just re. your mention of evidence in Paul's letters -

- can you quote the passages in those letters which you say describe Jesus a real human person from his parentage**, life events***, ministry****, apostles***** and betrayal******.
What do the letters actually say about any those "real human" features of Jesus, and how does Paul say he knew any of those things?



You're joking, right? ............. RIGHT IN THE DAMN POSTING I SUPPLY THIS:



* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52–54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52–54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55–58 AD)

** Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

*** Phillipians 2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
1 Corinthians 15:3
that he was buried

**** 1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

***** Galatians 1:18
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

****** 1 Corinthians 11:23
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in
remembrance of me."




For Pete's sake! What the hell are those? Am I quoting cookbooks?! YOU ARE TROLLING! Just pretending something ISN'T in a post purely to throw up dust at a posting you oppose.

And Dejuror talks about intellectual dishonesty! YOU MYTHERS are the ones who are intellectually dishonest. What *********** game are you trying to play here?

Stone
 
For Pete's sake! What the hell are those? Am I quoting cookbooks?! YOU ARE TROLLING! Just pretending something ISN'T in a post purely to throw up dust at a posting you oppose.

And Dejuror talks about intellectual dishonesty! YOU MYTHERS are the ones who are intellectually dishonest. What *********** game are you trying to play here?

Stone



Well the first thing is - try to keep your temper and stop foaming at the mouth over everything. Your complete lack of self control and perpetual temper tantrums only serve to show everyone why we should never take your posts seriously.


** Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

Stone


OK, well I am not going to go through all your examples, because we have been through them all many times before, inc. with you every time you listed all those same examples several times in previous threads. But just to take your first set of examples quoted above -

First you say that Galatians 4:4 says "born of a woman, born under law".

The first thing to know about any sentence like that is that according to bible scholars such as John Huddleston (I linked his Youtube video here several times before), in Jewish religious history of the time, practically everyone who was thought to be important, whether real or fictional, was always said to have been "born of a woman" with God as the father. That was, according to bible scholars themselves, standard terminology.

So if Paul believed Jesus to have been the messiah, then it was inevitable that he would believe him to be "born of a woman" but with God as his father.

But you should have quoted the whole passage from which those 7 words come. From which you will see that the words are part of an illustrative apocryphal pericope, preaching guidance to the faithful on how mankind had remained "enslaved by the spirit forces of the world", but were now released from such slavery to all become the "adopted sons of God", because of the one messianic reason which Paul is preaching in this passage and which he explains by saying this -

"God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father"​

So what that passage is about is Paul preaching an illustrative story of religious belief to his readers, whereby he says that if people follow his faith then they will be released from the slavery of evil "spirits who control the world", because God will instead send the spirit of his Son into their hearts, and that will release them from the controlling evil spirits and make them adopted sons of God!

That's what that passage is about. It's an apocryphal preaching story imploring followers to know the SPIRIT of Jesus, not a story about any human Jesus known to have been born to anyone on earth. Here is the entire passage, so people can read it for themselves -


Galatians 4 New International Version (NIV)

4 What I am saying is that as long as an heir is underage, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2 The heir is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3 So also, when we were underage, we were in slavery under the elemental spiritual forces[a] of the world. 4 But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship. 6 Because you are his sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,[c] Father.” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but God’s child; and since you are his child, God has made you also an heir.


And directly further down in the same passage, Paul explains further, saying this -


17 Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you from us, so that you may have zeal for them. 18 It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always, not just when I am with you. 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20 how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!


At the end of that passage from 4:19 to 4:20, Paul is talking about his readers being his own "children" and saying he himself is in the "pains of childbirth" ... "until Christ is formed in you" etc. etc. This is all part of the same apocryphal preaching passage that begins above in 4:4 to 4:7. But Paul is not talking literally of Christ, the spirits of the world, saying these people are his children and that he is in labour of childbirth etc.

The entire passage, inc. such phrases as saying the "Son of God is born of a woman", is meant only to explain to the faithful how they will also become the "sons of God", if they follow the faith.


OK, your next example was "Romans 1:3 who as to his human nature was a descendant of David" ...

... I'm not going to waste more time and space here quoting the entire passage this time, because it's not necessary. The plain fact of that matter is that as Huddleston explained in the aforementioned YouTube film, "David" is now thought even by Christian bible scholars to be quite likely no more than a fictional figure of Jewish religious OT legend. He was never a real person.

And you cannot have a human Jesus descended from a father who never existed.

Paul thought that David existed, because Paul believed OT prophecy was true by divine decree from Yahweh. But it should be obvious that Paul himself would not know anything about the ancestral line of people supposedly living around 1000 BC.

OK, your next example was "Galatians 1:19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother."

I am really not going to waste time on this "Lords Brother" nonsense yet again. We have been over that literally hundreds of times now, and the fact of that matter is that there are far more reasons to believe that it only ever meant a brother in belief (not an actual family brother). And there is also reason to think those few words "other apostles saw I none, save James the Lords brother" may be in part, or entirely, a latter addition anyway.


Last of your above claims "1 Corinthians 9:5 Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?"

This is the same absurd claim as the "lords brother" in Galatians 1:19. In various letters Paul refers to all sorts of people as brothers and sisters, but he only means brothers and sisters in belief.

Also, in Carrier’s latest book, which as Max will tell you is in fact a peer reviewed academic publication; Carrier says there is clear evidence that the term "Lords Brother", only meant a believer who had been appropriately baptised into the faith. I do not know if he is correct about that, because I have not read what he says in that book. But that is also an explanation which iirc other academic sceptical authors have suggested in the past, i.e. saying that the term "lords brother" might have referred simply to a particular group of believers ... and here Carrier now says that "group" were in fact the selected baptised members of the faith.
 
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You're joking, right? ............. RIGHT IN THE DAMN POSTING I SUPPLY THIS:



* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52–54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52–54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55–58 AD)

** Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

*** Phillipians 2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
1 Corinthians 15:3
that he was buried

**** 1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

***** Galatians 1:18
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

****** 1 Corinthians 11:23
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in
remembrance of me."




For Pete's sake! What the hell are those? Am I quoting cookbooks?! YOU ARE TROLLING! Just pretending something ISN'T in a post purely to throw up dust at a posting you oppose.

And Dejuror talks about intellectual dishonesty! YOU MYTHERS are the ones who are intellectually dishonest. What *********** game are you trying to play here?

Stone

No game, I'm just waiting for an HJer to post any evidence of an HJ. So far there's been a lot of name calling and citing of the NT but no evidence.

The NT has as much credibility as an biography of LRH written by a Scientologist.
 
You're joking, right? ............. RIGHT IN THE DAMN POSTING I SUPPLY THIS:



* First Thessalonians (ca. 51 AD)
Philippians (ca. 52–54 AD)
Philemon (ca. 52–54 AD)
First Corinthians (ca. 53–54 AD)
Galatians (ca. 55 AD)
Second Corinthians (ca. 55–56 AD)
Romans (ca. 55–58 AD)

** Galatians 4:4
born of a woman, born under law
Romans 1:3
who as to his human nature was a descendant of David
Galatians 1:19
I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

*** Phillipians 2:7
but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death — even death on a cross!
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1 Thessalonians 2:15
who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.
1 Corinthians 15:3
that he was buried

**** 1 Corinthians 7:10
To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband.
1 Corinthians 9:14
In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

***** Galatians 1:18
Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
1 Corinthians 9:5
Don't we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas?

****** 1 Corinthians 11:23
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."
25
In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the
new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in
remembrance of me."




For Pete's sake! What the hell are those? Am I quoting cookbooks?! YOU ARE TROLLING! Just pretending something ISN'T in a post purely to throw up dust at a posting you oppose.

And Dejuror talks about intellectual dishonesty! YOU MYTHERS are the ones who are intellectually dishonest. What *********** game are you trying to play here?

Stone

Are you an agent of the Christian Church?

Again, the Christian Bible is NOT historically credible.

The Christian Bible is NOT a contemporary source of Pontius Pilate.

The existing manuscripts of the Christian Bible are no earlier than the 2nd century.

Please, just go and get familiar with writings of antiquity.

The Christian Bible was used in antiquity to ARGUE AGAINST an historical Jesus [Jesus with a human father].

The stories of Jesus were known PACKS of LIES and the Pauline writers were established LIARS since at least the 4th century.

See "Against Hierocles" attributed to Eusebius, "The Apocritus" attributed to Macarius Magnes and "Against the Galileans" attributed to Julian.

"Against Hierocles"
And this point is also worth noticing, that whereas the tales of Jesus have been vamped up by Peter and Paul and a few others of the kind,--men who were liars and devoid of education and wizards....

"Against the Galileans"
....It is, I think, expedient to set forth to all mankind the reasons by which I was convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.

"The Pauline writer was a LIAR and grew up in an atmosphere of Lying".

The NT including the Pauline Corpus is historical garbage composed by men who were LIARS.
 
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No game, I'm just waiting for an HJer to post any evidence of an HJ. So far there's been a lot of name calling and citing of the NT but no evidence.

The NT has as much credibility as an biography of LRH written by a Scientologist.

Good one but essentially true. The evidence for Jesus is ridiculously weak.

The evidence for Robin Hood which can be found as early as 1228 a mere 29 years after the death of King Richard who is generally connected to the tales is better when what we have for Jesus and we aren't sure if Robin really existed.
 
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