Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

Do you like motherhood and apple pie Bill?

Apple pie too much.

 

[Numbers]

I share others' view that this is less about seeing the biggest culprits (especially Stefanoni, Mignini, most of the Perugia Flying Squad) punished per se. Rather, to me it's about a) seeing those people properly held to account, and b) taking all proper steps to minimise the chances of this sort of thing happening again.

So I think Stefanoni should be subjected to an investigation, and (after due process) removed from the forensic science community. I think Mignini should be investigated by the appropriate body, and (after due process) removed from his position of authority and formally censured over his conduct in this case. I think that most of the Perugia Flying Squad should face disciplinary investigations.

But on top of that, I think that certain structural changes need to happen, to try to minimise the chances of this happening again. Firstly, the police and courts need to get a grip on low-template DNA evidence, and put all the crucial protocols and processes into place. Secondly, the (seemingly ad hoc) practice of sending lab technicians out to process crime scenes should be formally forbidden. Italy must make sure that specialised crime scene investigators are trained and available for this sort of work. Thirdly, I think that the top brass of the Italian judiciary - probably the Constitutional Court - need to sort out the institutionalised problem of the improper relationship between trial judges and prosecutors. They need to ensure that the adversarial system is rigorously enforced, that there is full and open discovery to the defence, that defendants truly ARE treated by the courts as innocent until/unless proved guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And lastly, I think Italian legislators urgently need to draft new laws concerning police/PM practices during an investigation - something similar to the UK's PACE act.

All the above should happen in an ideal Italy. I hope that Italy can move forward on those things and not just hide the problems revealed in this case through the exonerating verdict for Amanda and Raffaele.

 

[carbonjam72]

Don't forget Chieffi. Total idiot.

Eta: I also believe that's it's unavoidable that chiefi gets thrown under the bus when the new motivation comes out.

As I've expressed my theory here, I believe Chieffi was selected to write the Hellman reversal because of his age. I think they knew they weren't going to do a final conviction, they just needed to buy some time due to the conflict with the Burlesconi political machine.

I think Chieffi is like 80 or something. Probably due to retire anyway, but I'm guessing he goes pretty soon after the motivation comes out, or more likely before if he's smart.

I think Mignini finally gets his hat handed to him at Raf & Gumbel's trial over 'Honor Bound', but I think he'll be allowed to retire gracefully after the motivations report comes out.

Someone has to take the fall. Stefanoni for the lab work, but I think they've already been teeing up napoleone, zugarini and ficarra. It's hard to inagine any of them escaping censure.

Question is how many of them can be convicted? Stefanoni is probably the most out on a limb. Without her "evidence", could they ever have been arrested?

As I've said elsewhere, at the bottom of everything is the fraudulent hoax of Michele Giuttari that a satanic sect was responsible for the Monster of Florence murders, and that he and Mignini pursued that hoax in their Narducci trail cases, the excesses of which led to their criminal indictment.

Mignini's trying to wrap the Kercher murder into their hoax ensnared Amanda and Raf, but mostly Amanda, because he needed a girl for his imaginary satanic orgy. Ultimately this was Mignini's tragedy. It would be unjust if he were not to fully shoulder the burden of shame, disgrace and ridicule - the worst fate imaginable for an Italian.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm waiting for them to turn on each other. A lot of the nuts there were making definitive promises about outcomes. Additionally, there were multiple erroneous interpretations of law and science. When things don't work out, there is a natural inclination to look for someone to blame. Right now it's the ISC. My guess is it will soon be each other. The likes of Yummi, Popper, McCall and Rag have said much to be held accountable for by anyone with an emotional investment in guilt and punishment.

I still think one or two will come 180 degrees and issue mea culpas and apologies.

I agree in part. I think they are all holding themselves together with the ongoing delusion that they still share the noble goal of "Justice for Meredith" and that they are some sort of custodians for all that is good and right.

I happen to doubt very much whether many of them - if indeed any of them - will ever publicly acknowledge their mistakes and shortcomings. I don't think that, collectively or individually, they are intellectually capable of thinking this through rationally or reasonably - as I said before, I think that their level of engagement and emotional investment in the pro-guilt position is a self-selecting force in that regard. I think that some of the pro-guilt commentators certainly do need to apologise - particularly those who have mocked, taunted, bullied, stalked, harassed or exposed themselves as vitriolic, vindictive misanthropes.

But those, unfortunately, are the subset within the pro-guilt community whom I suspect will remain the most vocal, the most bitter, and the most evangelical in their rationalisations. The rest, I hope (and, to a degree, expect), will just slink away. I think they will probably always be able to convince themselves that they were on the "side of true justice" all along, and that they were entirely noble and honorable in their endeavours. I don't think anything will ever change those sorts of delusions. It's who they are, and why they did it in the first place. Sad, really.

 

[LondonJohn]

PS: Where oh where is The Machine / Harry Rag? Is he perhaps having an argument with his local Aldi over the return of a cheap bottle of Champagne?

And where's Stilicho?

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, one comment/thought that's cropping up with unpleasant regularity among the pro-guilt community is particularly repugnant to me. It's the one where they comfort themselves with the thought that Knox and Sollecito may be free, but they will always be prisoners in their own minds, and shunned by the community, and so on.

Truly disgusting. But that's what they are.

 

[Rolfe]

I'd be very surprised indeed (though delighted) if Italy instituted a root-and-branch clean-up of its corrupt/incompetent officials on the back of this. I expect a few mildly rapped knuckles and business as usual. If reform comes I think it's far more likely to be incremental as younger and hopefully smarter people rise in the ranks and tinker. Unless they simply adopt the existing culture.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that seems to be a universal pattern.

 

[Rolfe]

Is it really possible for Knox and Sollecito to get compensation for wrongful imprisonment? I didn't think that was possible anywhere. People are remanded in custody pending trial and subsequently acquitted all over the world, and I've never heard of anyone being compensated for that, no matter how pathetic the case against them.

 

[LondonJohn]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited breach of rule 12

 

[Rolfe]

One thing I would really like to see is Amanda and/or Raffaele getting a court order somewhere to force the hate guilter forums to be taken down.

I don't suppose anyone can stop them continuing to discuss the case, so long as they stay on the right side of defamation, but the stuff that is already there is horrendously defamatory and damaging and the world would be a better place if the only place you could access it was the Wayback Machine.

Does anyone know if it's legally possible, or does it all come under free speech?

 

[Rolfe]

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited breach of rule 12

 

[carbonjam72]

Crumbs, if we are talking serious reform then all of the above. I would seriously fancy the chances of nailing Stefanoni for perjury and perverting the course of justice. There was nothing on the knife or the clasp (how could there have been) and she knew what she was doing burying EDFs, concealing inconvenient test results and destroying evidence. She cannot possibly have acted alone.

Well I completely agree with you. But she had accomplices, in Mignini, Commodi, and all the judges that allowed her to conceal the evidence. When Massei asked for an independent expert, he selected her boss. There is a rottenness in the system that a few prosecutions won't begin to address. But it's a start.

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, the verdict is still the first item on the news here in the UK.

The BBC has just shown a snippet of Bongiorno speaking outside the court, where she points out correctly that the SC ruling shows that the defence teams were not just "partly right", they were "wholly right". I wonder how long it will take most of the pro-guilt commentators to realise the significance of the SC totally throwing out the case, as opposed to simply kicking it back down for another appeal trial. Perhaps they'll never realise........

 

[lonepinealex]

I'd be very surprised indeed (though delighted) if Italy instituted a root-and-branch clean-up of its corrupt/incompetent officials on the back of this. I expect a few mildly rapped knuckles and business as usual. If reform comes I think it's far more likely to be incremental as younger and hopefully smarter people rise in the ranks and tinker. Unless they simply adopt the existing culture.

Sorry to be so pessimistic, but that seems to be a universal pattern.

Yes, and actually Italy can now say, "look, we sorted it out! Everything's fine!".

Further action may depend on what the motivation report says.

 

[lonepinealex]

By the way, the verdict is still the first item on the news here in the UK.

The BBC has just shown a snippet of Bongiorno speaking outside the court, where she points out correctly that the SC ruling shows that the defence teams were not just "partly right", they were "wholly right". I wonder how long it will take most of the pro-guilt commentators to realise the significance of the SC totally throwing out the case, as opposed to simply kicking it back down for another appeal trial. Perhaps they'll never realise........

That's true - the last R4 bulletin moved it to top billing. It's been second behind the plane crash all morning. NHS is top of the online news though. When the Kerchers make a statement it'll be boosted again for a while.

 

[LondonJohn]

One thing I would really like to see is Amanda and/or Raffaele getting a court order somewhere to force the hate guilter forums to be taken down.

I don't suppose anyone can stop them continuing to discuss the case, so long as they stay on the right side of defamation, but the stuff that is already there is horrendously defamatory and damaging and the world would be a better place if the only place you could access it was the Wayback Machine.

Does anyone know if it's legally possible, or does it all come under free speech?

As of yesterday at around 9.30pm UK time, it became potentially libellous to write that Knox and/or Sollecito are murderers (or that they "got away with it" etc).

Personally, I doubt whether Knox or Sollecito will have any interest in pursuing actions against anyone who's continuing to make such claims. I think that they would perhaps consider taking action if anyone becomes extremely vitriolic, and/or if it crosses over into any sort of attempt to contact Knox/Sollecito or their families.

As for everything written up to that point, I don't think it's actionable under defamation law, since there was a fair justification defence. In any case, it's obvious that even if those sites do continue to operate, they will quickly recede into the deep, deep backwaters of the internet - save as a source of sociological/psychological research, that is. And on top of that, I suspect (thankfully) that those funding the hosting of these sites and those running them on a day-to-day basis might soon become disillusioned and jack it all in. For their sake, the sake of Knox/Sollecito, and the sake of the Kercher family, I sincerely hope that's what happens.

 

[Diocletus]

A couple of thoughts on how the ISC is going to walk this whole thing back in the motivations report:

1. The "Confession". This one is easy. The ISC already said, in a 2008 (or 2009?) opinion that the statements could not be used. Yet, by joinder of the civil matters, those statements were used. It's easy now for the ISC to say that by virtue of its prior opinion, the Lumumba case was misjoined and the statements never should have been used. Villians here: Massei, Kerchers, Lumumba.

2. The Rudy Guede case. This one is easy, too. Everyone knows that you can't use some other guy's trial to convict someone. ISC will say the the defendants should have had a fair opportunity to litigate all issues, thus "multiple attackers" and "staging" are not proved. The judges probably saw the wall-climbing video on youtube. Villians here: Chieffi, Nencini, Mignini, Kerchers.

3. DNA. This one is simple, too. Berti and Barni proved that for LCN you have to amplify multiple times, and Stefanoni never did that--ever. Given this failure of basic protocol, and the questionable circumstances around collection, the knife and clasp results are not usable, and we have a new test for scientific evidence in Italy. No other DNA results are meaningful. I think that Gill's appearance on TV was helpful. It's possible that the ISC wants to make a point about the dual issues of (i) defense has to prove contamination (even when the prosecution failed to authenticate the results), and (ii) refusal to hand over raw data. Villians here: Stefanoni, Commodi, Nencini.

4. Alibi: The alibi will be held to be feasible. The fact that it can't be proved with certainty is a function of Nencini's evasion of TOD and the cops' spoilation of the computers. Given the spoilation, defendants should have been given the benefit of the doubt on alibi, and the prosecution should have been made to come up with some concrete "anti-alibi" evidence. Villians: Massei, cops, Nencini, Kerchers.

5. Anti-Alibi witnesses: Curatalo was on drugs and Nencini never heard from him so had no standing to adjudge him credible. Quintavalle is besides the point, and full of it. Villians: Chieffi, Nencini.

6. The "Scream". Who cares? Irrelevant. Villians: Nencini.

7. Other stuff--112 Call, "behavior", "I was there", "she knew how Meredith died", etc. All rubbish. Villians: Mignini, Kerchers, Nencini.

Actually, I don't think that this Motivation report has to be that long or is very difficult to write. The Florence cabal of Castiglioni(?), Nencini and Chieffi are going to come out looking very bad. Why did they do it?

 

[Kauffer]

PS: Where oh where is The Machine / Harry Rag? Is he perhaps having an argument with his local Aldi over the return of a cheap bottle of Champagne?

And where's Stilicho?

They have disappeared and it's rather cowardly. From one perspective, one would have thought that Rag, having spent so much time and effort to rouse the troops into vehement online action, tweeting and re-tweeting misinformation and abuse and, after so many of them responded to his call, he might have shown up to acknowledge their 'efforts' - to tell them he is grateful.

He was the worst of them.

 

[carbonjam72]

One thing I would really like to see is Amanda and/or Raffaele getting a court order somewhere to force the hate guilter forums to be taken down.

I don't suppose anyone can stop them continuing to discuss the case, so long as they stay on the right side of defamation, but the stuff that is already there is horrendously defamatory and damaging and the world would be a better place if the only place you could access it was the Wayback Machine.

Does anyone know if it's legally possible, or does it all come under free speech?

What about the documents they've gathered and made available? Do we lose all that too?

I abhor what they do, and how they do it, but on some level, haven't they also provided info, alongside their dis-info?

 

[Diocletus]

As of yesterday at around 9.30pm UK time, it became potentially libellous to write that Knox and/or Sollecito are murderers (or that they "got away with it" etc).

Personally, I doubt whether Knox or Sollecito will have any interest in pursuing actions against anyone who's continuing to make such claims. I think that they would perhaps consider taking action if anyone becomes extremely vitriolic, and/or if it crosses over into any sort of attempt to contact Knox/Sollecito or their families.

As for everything written up to that point, I don't think it's actionable under defamation law, since there was a fair justification defence. In any case, it's obvious that even if those sites do continue to operate, they will quickly recede into the deep, deep backwaters of the internet - save as a source of sociological/psychological research, that is. And on top of that, I suspect (thankfully) that those funding the hosting of these sites and those running them on a day-to-day basis might soon become disillusioned and jack it all in. For their sake, the sake of Knox/Sollecito, and the sake of the Kercher family, I sincerely hope that's what happens.

If I were Knox, I would seriously consider suing those jackasses Peggy Ganong and Randy Jackson, in order (i) to get the site data (identities of all subscribers) for safety purposes, (ii) shut that cesspool down, and (iii) make them pay. After all, they're easy to get to--they live right down the street.