Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Kaosium]

Maybe Maresca can earn a living defending/protecting various Perugia police and prosecutors in investigations and lawsuits for professional negligence and concealing and destroying evidence.

That's his niche in Italy as I understand it. His father was a policemen in Florence and he's their little helper in court. There's a famous police abuse case there he's gotten recent headlines for trying to insist the guy they beat to death had actually died from the minimal amount of cocaine in his system.

 

[Antony]

I would not expect Guede to do that. He has known since day one that he was given a gift when Mignini was assigned to the case and gave Guede an easy out to a lesser sentence. I think that Guede will serve the last bit of his remaining sentence (he should be out soon given the usual discounts for good behaviour and all of that) without making a peep. It seems to me that there would be a huge downside for him to do or say anything to try to re-open his own sentence, in light of the gift that Mignini gave him and the gift that the guilters keep on giving him. I would expect him to just stay quiet, get out at the earliest opportunity, and then relocate to somewhere that nobody recognizes him, comfortable in the knowledge that Mignini and the guilters have downplayed his crimes for him.

Let's just hope that the next time he commits a crime, nobody gets hurt and he gets put away for long enough that he's harmless if he ever gets out.

 

[Antony]

With the serious conviction overturned, I expect Italy to look for a mutual settlement instead of pushing anything. I think it is what the ECHR prefers anyway, for the two sides to work it out.

Yes - it's reasonable to speculate that the latest ISC set of judges took their decision with one eye on the ECtHR. Shame they didn't cancel the callunia conviction as well, but I daresay that wasn't open to them. In the long run it will make no difference, either by the ECtHR decision or, as you say, by mutual settlement.

If so, then maybe the callunia conviction will not last much longer than it takes for the current motivations report to come out. If Italy decides to settle, then they will want the case to end as early as possible.

What I'd like to know, is whether this is going to lead to proper reform within the Italian judicial system. Let's not forget the Scazzi-Misseri case and the earthquake scientists. Alas, idiot judicial comments about being raped while wearing jeans or having feelings of love for the under-age victim, probably won't come into the same investigation.

 

[eerok]

Good luck to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. Perhaps their nightmares are finally over.

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes - it's reasonable to speculate that the latest ISC set of judges took their decision with one eye on the ECtHR. Shame they didn't cancel the callunia conviction as well, but I daresay that wasn't open to them. In the long run it will make no difference, either by the ECtHR decision or, as you say, by mutual settlement.

If so, then maybe the callunia conviction will not last much longer than it takes for the current motivations report to come out. If Italy decides to settle, then they will want the case to end as early as possible.

What I'd like to know, is whether this is going to lead to proper reform within the Italian judicial system. Let's not forget the Scazzi-Misseri case and the earthquake scientists. Alas, idiot judicial comments about being raped while wearing jeans or having feelings of love for the under-age victim, probably won't come into the same investigation.

No matter, there are a lot of issues. . . .I want to see my governor give a full pardon to four three navy sailors and an apology given.

This really is an issue of "next fight" please. There is also the Jeff Havard case in Mississippi I believe. He is on death row.

 

[Planigale]

I suspect that some of the other cases will fold. Pursuing the calunnia case against Knox for her allegation of police brutality has little benefit for anyone. As I understand it some of the police involved have been charged with abuse of office (or the Italian equivalent) and any defence lawyer will take them through this to show they are unreliable witnesses, Knox is beyond reach, damages will be unenforceable, and she is officially innocent. The police / prosecution can only lose by pursuing this case.

Now Sollecito is officially innocent, the defamation case against him for his book will be significantly weaker. I thought that the judges in this case would try to defer judgement until after the confirmation of conviction (or not as it turned out). Mignini probably will want to pursue it, he seems to relish this type of action, but at the end of the day he may not relish the fact the consequence will be that the spotlight will be turned on his actions which will be held up to scrutiny.

Clearly the aggravated element of the calunnia conviction against Knox falls, the whole thing looks a bit shaky as she is innocent. The ECHR will not prioritise things now, it will grind its way through. As I understand it Italy has no simple way to reverse the established conviction. Knox will want things done with. I suspect over the next year some deal will be done the details will be confidential.

 

[RoseMontague]

It's good to see you, too.

I expect Ms. Knox's case regarding her callunia conviction to be successful at the ECHR. The circumstances of her interrogations are pretty much text book violations, and I will be very surprised if the ECHR doesn't take that view as well.

As for Guede being retried on the basis of new evidence, no, I do not think that anyone involved in Guede's conviction will try that on. To amount to "new evidence", it typically has to be something that was (a) not known at the time of trial and (b) not available by way of reasonable diligence to have been known at the time of trial. There is a reasonable diligence component, and that does not extend to evidence to which a party was wilfully blind or evidence that a party deliberately ignored. In an application to adduce "new evidence", the party seeking to adduce the evidence has to show that the "new evidence" is not something that they were aware of previously or that they should have been aware of previously by the exercise of reasonable diligence. In the circumstances of this case, I do not think that either Guede or the prosecution could legitimately make such a claim, and I do not think that either of them will go anywhere near that putative semen stain. Everyone has known about the putative semen sample for years, and neither Guede nor the prosecution wanted it tested (or wanted the results of any testing to be made public if the prosecution did actually test it and suppressed that fact).

So, it seems to me that neither Guede nor the prosecution will claim that it is "new evidence" at this stage.

As to whether Maresca continues the other civil actions, you may be right, and he may be foolish enough to go there, but I tend to doubt it. The optics will be very bad. Plus, for him it's always been about how much money he can get out of this case, and there is very little money to be gained in pursuing the remaining claims. He stands to gain next to nothing even if the remaining (ludicrous) civil claims are successful. His only financial payoff would ever have come as his percentage of the multi-million euro judgments he hoped to be able to collect upon in relation to the civil side of the murder charges. With all hope of that payoff gone now, I think he will cut his losses.

As always, though, one never knows, and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

My guess it will now be Raffaele's family that files some lawsuits. Italy will probably throw somebody under the bus over this. Maybe Steffi or even Miggi. It will be interesting to see.

 

[Desert Fox]

My guess it will now be Raffaele's family that files some lawsuits. Italy will probably throw somebody under the bus over this. Maybe Steffi or even Miggi. It will be interesting to see.

I am not so much interested in prison time for "Steffi" but I really do not want her working in any forensics capacity.

 

[Samson]

My guess it will now be Raffaele's family that files some lawsuits. Italy will probably throw somebody under the bus over this. Maybe Steffi or even Miggi. It will be interesting to see.

You probably know as much about the plight of Sabrina and Cossima Misseri, RoseMontague. I suppose this is far more intractable than this case, since it is a village and pitchforks scene. Yet I have the utmost admiration for the analysis you, Kaosium, Teddy and so on have conducted. Anthony seems keen, I hope others here will take an interest.

 

[carbonjam72]

He can't have his sentence increased. It looks like he's got a free shot, depending on the wording of the motivations report, to go for trial review. All upside and no downside. So what will the motivation report say about multiple attackers?

In the US, there's a legal principle called, "the doctrine of unclean hands". Just means you can't do something crooked, then asked for the court's to help you.

Just wondering if Rudy's 1/3rd discount for doing a fast track trial could be discounted, or ordered anew trial, because he lied about Amanda & Raf?

I know Italian defendants are allowed to lie (btw - WTF), but are they allowed to commit calunnia?

 

[analemma]

the finest day for the isc

What an amazing display of courage by the Italian high court. I've never been prouder to be Italian. Will be celebrating tonight for Amanda, Raffaele and in seeing justice win out over incompetence and corruption. Still pinching myself..

Yes
The ISC has never shown more courage and judgement
Six years of contempt for is just washed away for me
the italian justice system bounced this case around until a fair and impartial group of judges examined it and gave a just decision
"the wheels of justice grind slowly but they grind exceeding fine"

 

[RoseMontague]

You probably know as much about the plight of Sabrina and Cossima Misseri, RoseMontague. I suppose this is far more intractable than this case, since it is a village and pitchforks scene. Yet I have the utmost admiration for the analysis you, Kaosium, Teddy and so on have conducted. Anthony seems keen, I hope others here will take an interest.

It's a local witch burning that Italy has thus far sanctioned. A far more ridiculous case than the one against Raffaele and Amanda. So far, it has just not gotten as much attention. I plan on getting back into this one, and maybe even Rolfe's case as well. Some things just beg to be corrected.

 

[Caper]

Does anyone think it would be pretty awesome to see John Oliver do a segment on the Amanda Knox case? Maybe part of an overall theme of false confessions?

 

[carbonjam72]

It's good to see you, too.

I expect Ms. Knox's case regarding her callunia conviction to be successful at the ECHR. The circumstances of her interrogations are pretty much text book violations, and I will be very surprised if the ECHR doesn't take that view as well.

As for Guede being retried on the basis of new evidence, no, I do not think that anyone involved in Guede's conviction will try that on. To amount to "new evidence", it typically has to be something that was (a) not known at the time of trial and (b) not available by way of reasonable diligence to have been known at the time of trial. There is a reasonable diligence component, and that does not extend to evidence to which a party was wilfully blind or evidence that a party deliberately ignored. In an application to adduce "new evidence", the party seeking to adduce the evidence has to show that the "new evidence" is not something that they were aware of previously or that they should have been aware of previously by the exercise of reasonable diligence. In the circumstances of this case, I do not think that either Guede or the prosecution could legitimately make such a claim, and I do not think that either of them will go anywhere near that putative semen stain. Everyone has known about the putative semen sample for years, and neither Guede nor the prosecution wanted it tested (or wanted the results of any testing to be made public if the prosecution did actually test it and suppressed that fact).

So, it seems to me that neither Guede nor the prosecution will claim that it is "new evidence" at this stage.

As to whether Maresca continues the other civil actions, you may be right, and he may be foolish enough to go there, but I tend to doubt it. The optics will be very bad. Plus, for him it's always been about how much money he can get out of this case, and there is very little money to be gained in pursuing the remaining claims. He stands to gain next to nothing even if the remaining (ludicrous) civil claims are successful. His only financial payoff would ever have come as his percentage of the multi-million euro judgments he hoped to be able to collect upon in relation to the civil side of the murder charges. With all hope of that payoff gone now, I think he will cut his losses.
As always, though, one never knows, and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

I agree Maresca will not be looking to press more of these claims, but I don't think he's come away empty handed.

The value of media coverage is something to consider. We all know his name, whereas before was just a local shyster, now he's known world-wide.

I would like to see Rudy give an interview and tell what he knows and did, without fear of additional charges, have the media pay millions, and have the money used to pay off his civil debt to the Kerchers.

That way, Rudy could get a fresh start, Kerchers get the truth and some compensation, and it removes any last lingering uncertainty among the public as to innocence and responsibility.

 

[anglolawyer]

I agree Maresca will not be looking to press more of these claims, but I don't think he's come away empty handed.

The value of media coverage is something to consider. We all know his name, whereas before was just a local shyster, now he's known world-wide.

I would like to see Rudy give an interview and tell what he knows and did, without fear of additional charges, have the media pay millions, and have the money used to pay off his civil debt to the Kerchers.

That way, Rudy could get a fresh start, Kerchers get the truth and some compensation, and it removes any last lingering uncertainty among the public as to innocence and responsibility.

Is there anything Guede could say that would convince us of his truthfulness? How could we be sure he was not just pushing some angle? I suppose he could lead us to the knife, assuming he recalls roughly where he tossed it and it's still there. If he just parroted the lone wolf theory as hypothesised by most of us why would we be justified in accepting his word?

 

[NancyS]

I wouldn't be surprised if Guede has very mixed up memories of that night - according to Nina Burleigh, there was some evidence that he was suffering from a dissociative disorder and it might be that he remembers very little detail of the actual violence. It is hard for many people who have committed violent acts, to accept what they have done - and I think a huge part of him is likely to want to buy into the fantasy that others were involved. I think the nearest to truth we'll ever get from him, is that he has no memory of AK/RS being involved in any way - and he'll go back to talking about shadowy figures.

The PMF loons are already offering him sympathy, maybe he'll become their new figurehead - Justice for Guede, or some other such nonsense

I'm wondering what will happen to the Pro-Guilt wiki and websites? Will they be able to remain live, even with all the nonsense and lies?

 

[Mr Fied]

I know De Felice would never read here, but just in case:

I would just like to say
"At last, the justice system finally crumbled and told us what we knew to be true".

 

[Samson]

It's good to see you, too.

I expect Ms. Knox's case regarding her callunia conviction to be successful at the ECHR. The circumstances of her interrogations are pretty much text book violations, and I will be very surprised if the ECHR doesn't take that view as well.

As for Guede being retried on the basis of new evidence, no, I do not think that anyone involved in Guede's conviction will try that on. To amount to "new evidence", it typically has to be something that was (a) not known at the time of trial and (b) not available by way of reasonable diligence to have been known at the time of trial. There is a reasonable diligence component, and that does not extend to evidence to which a party was wilfully blind or evidence that a party deliberately ignored. In an application to adduce "new evidence", the party seeking to adduce the evidence has to show that the "new evidence" is not something that they were aware of previously or that they should have been aware of previously by the exercise of reasonable diligence. In the circumstances of this case, I do not think that either Guede or the prosecution could legitimately make such a claim, and I do not think that either of them will go anywhere near that putative semen stain. Everyone has known about the putative semen sample for years, and neither Guede nor the prosecution wanted it tested (or wanted the results of any testing to be made public if the prosecution did actually test it and suppressed that fact).

So, it seems to me that neither Guede nor the prosecution will claim that it is "new evidence" at this stage.

As to whether Maresca continues the other civil actions, you may be right, and he may be foolish enough to go there, but I tend to doubt it. The optics will be very bad. Plus, for him it's always been about how much money he can get out of this case, and there is very little money to be gained in pursuing the remaining claims. He stands to gain next to nothing even if the remaining (ludicrous) civil claims are successful. His only financial payoff would ever have come as his percentage of the multi-million euro judgments he hoped to be able to collect upon in relation to the civil side of the murder charges. With all hope of that payoff gone now, I think he will cut his losses.

As always, though, one never knows, and it will be interesting to see what happens next.

You seem to be saying something from a totally impartial viewpoint.
Maresca was depending on the bra clasp replacing the shoe prints to get paid pro bono.

 

[carbonjam72]

Is there anything Guede could say that would convince us of his truthfulness? How could we be sure he was not just pushing some angle? I suppose he could lead us to the knife, assuming he recalls roughly where he tossed it and it's still there. If he just parroted the lone wolf theory as hypothesised by most of us why would we be justified in accepting his word?

Yes, the knife for sure would be something. But there are also particularities of the crime, what he did upstairs, and if he went downstairs. Is that his blood on the lightswitch downstairs, which returned a human DNA file? Did he spill semen on the pillow over Ms Kercher as she was dead or dying?

The police failed to test a lot of evidence, or concealed their results. Rudy giving a detailed story could tell us what that evidence might show. I think the downstairs crime scene is one of the biggest departures that could be verified.

But ultimately I have to agree with you, and everyone who has known him his whole life; Rudy Guede is a liar.

 

[billyryan]

Anyone care to guess what happens next,a)a grovelling apology from the mayor of Perugia to Amanda and Raffaele,b) an apology to Amanda Knox from the Italian government,c)an investigation started into the prosecution.


Someone up thread mentioned Italy scapegoating someone for this miscarriage of justice,All of the players in this have known they were persecuting two innocent defendants from very early on.JFK father filed his warehouses with whiskey for the day America went wet when the stock market inevitably collapsed.I bet the police have been collecting the dirt on Mignini and the Stefanoni for the day they might be scapegoated,likewise Mignini on Stefanoni and the police,stefanoni has been preparing for the day she will be assigned all of the blame for Italy's shame,it could get very interesting again.