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Positive vs. Negative Atheism

Love the OP! \i agree with all of it!



Having only seen the topic this morning, I'm afraid I missed out pages 2-5. What I would really like to do is to send a link to the topic to AofC
plus all the other Bishops, plus church leaders worldwide, but it wouldn't do any good, would it, because it would be just their secretaries who would read it, and they would not consider the possibility that there is no God. The move to ;atheism is going to be so slow and I can't live for long enough to see that time when finally, those who do not believe outnumber those who do.
 
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Here's the two as I understand them:
I do not believe that gods exist (negative)
I believe that gods do not exist (positive)
"I do not believe" is more likely to be seen as an expression of disbelief than some neutral position.

But if we're going to have an in-depth discussion about belief, we need a word or phrase we can use to indicate the neutral position.
Agreed but don't use the word atheist. That word already has a widely recognized meaning. Non-theist would be a better term.

It makes little difference if you use the qualifiers strong/weak or positive/negative, most people who are not interested in splitting hairs see an atheist as somebody who denies or disputes the existence of gods (to some extent).

If a neutral person describes himself as an atheist then he is likely to be seen incorrectly as a disbeliever. If a disbeliever uses the term atheist to mean neutral then he is giving a false representation of his views.
 
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So you see when I say I am an atheist I am so in regards to the all but countless and already quite debunked and long dead theos-hypotheses from the annals of human benightedness and folly.

If you have a new hypothesis then we will wait and see if it will be debunked like all the others or if you will be the most famous human being to have ever existed as the INVENTOR of the only GOD that has not yet been debunked.

Are you up to the challenge....can you at least give us a sneak peek at this "God" of yours?... remember it has to be falsifiable.

Why does it have to be falsifiable? Can I make one up that existed for a nano-second a billion years ago?

I don't have a specific God in mind. I suppose any of those older ones would do for the purposes of my question. It would be more relevant if we picked one of the more current versions though.

How does any of this relate to whether someone is a positive or a negative atheist?
 
Why does it have to be falsifiable? Can I make one up that existed for a nano-second a billion years ago?


Scientific Method.... read about it one day when you decide that you really want to know.


I don't have a specific God in mind. I suppose any of those older ones would do for the purposes of my question. It would be more relevant if we picked one of the more current versions though.


How about the God Emperor Hirohito or Bekka?


Do you think there can be any evidence presented for God Hirohito which a positive atheist you would accept? That's the important bit. Whether God Hirohito is impossible or merely undiscovered.


Are you a negative or positive a-Hirohitoist? or are you a believer in Hirohito?

He existed right here on earth where people could see and hear him until he ascended to his other palace on the planet Zanadu in 1989.

So do you accept the Japanese claims of the existence of God?

If not why not?


How do you know there is no God Bekka?


Are you a positive or negative a-Bekkaist? or are you a believer in Bekka?

Do you believe in the New Genesis God?

If not why not?


How does any of this relate to whether someone is a positive or a negative atheist?


If you understand the above exercise and are really an atheist then I can't see how you can fail to answer the above question by yourself.... if you still cannot then please just give up.
 
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You can argue that it does not matter because positive/dogmatic atheists can use that to point to the fact that no god(s) [that anyone witnessed] were involved with that scientific experiment, but it does not mean that science is about sorting the business of dealing with ideas of god(s).

It is not.

Sure it is. Science can be (and is) used to explore the idea of god(s) as a sociological concept, as an evolutionary trait, as a function of the human brain, and so forth.

To say that scence can't deal with the ideas of gods is like saying science can't deal with Santa Claus. If he's real, well, no--he's magical and imaginary and violates the second law of thermodynamics, among other things. But that requires starting with the premise of believing that Santa Claus is real. If one starts with the broader premise of investigating the whole Santa story, one can point out that Santa himself must be imaginary but explore why the myth got started, how it's passed on, if children act as if they actually believe at various ages and in various circumstances, how thinking about Santa Claus affects brain waves and compares to other categories, and so forth.

The exception, of course, are carefully crafted gods of the gaps, whose actual attributes cannot be explored because they're like the invisible dragon in the garage. But they can still be examined as human psycho-social constructs.
 
It would be interesting to hear (or if you have a link - to read) what kind of world you would have if everyone believed the same as you did)


A very monotonous one.

Wanting all people to be of the same mind is a :sheep: baaaaad :sheep: idea invented by monotheists.:wolf:
 
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That's interesting. Does it mean I can't be an atheist because I don't have a clear definition of what God is?

That's something that some ignostics and theological noncognitivists say.

But if I have no idea what something is, I can't believe in it, by default.
 
It is simple really. I was saying that science was not about the business of dealing with ideas of god(s) and you mentioned Ben as if he was a scientist sorting the business of dealing with ideas of god(s) in relation to his experiments with lightening.

You said:
"Putting aside the illogical fallacies, we also know that the majority of people used to think that lightening used to be a physical manifestation of their god's anger until Benjamin Franklin counteracted all that awesome anger with a simple iron rod... it seems gods are helpless against iron including YHWH."

Thus you were more than implying that science is about sorting the business of dealing with ideas of god(s) which is not what Ben was actually doing in relation to his experiments.

You can argue that it does not matter because positive/dogmatic atheists can use that to point to the fact that no god(s) [that anyone witnessed] were involved with that scientific experiment, but it does not mean that science is about sorting the business of dealing with ideas of god(s).

It is not.


:boggled::eye-poppi:covereyes:eek::rolleyes::confused::yikes:

[IMGW=150]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/uncyclopedia/images/d/d3/Strawman.jpg/revision/20121026220316[/IMGW]
 
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Scientific Method.... read about it one day when you decide that you really want to know.





How about the God Emperor Hirohito or Bekka?





Are you a negative or positive a-Hirohitoist? or are you a believer in Hirohito?

He existed right here on earth where people could see and hear him until he ascended to his other palace on the planet Zanadu in 1989.

So do you accept the Japanese claims of the existence of God?

If not why not?





Are you a positive or negative a-Bekkaist? or are you a believer in Bekka?

Do you believe in the New Genesis God?

If not why not?





If you understand the above exercise and are really an atheist then I can't see how you can fail to answer the above question by yourself.... if you still cannot then please just give up.

I don't understand the above exercise. I will have to give up.
 
Are you a negative or positive a-Hirohitoist? or are you a believer in Hirohito?
Strictly I should say I am a NON-Hirohitoist but I think that I can go all the way and say that I am a strong or positive a-Hirohitoist.

Are you a positive or negative a-Bekkaist? or are you a believer in Bekka?
Strictly I should say I am a NON-Bekkaist but I think that I can go all the way and say that I am a strong or positive a-Bekkaist.
 
"I do not believe" is more likely to be seen as an expression of disbelief than some neutral position.

Possibly, but that's more of a comprehension problem than a flaw in the description of the position.

It's probably compounded by the fact that people tend to assume the negation of a quality means the presence of the opposite quality.

For example, if you said "John is not tall", many people would assume that this means "John is short", even though you never said he was short. If John is average height, then John is not tall, and it's perfectly correct to say that he's not tall when discussing who is or isn't tall. The issue of who is or isn't short is a different matter entirely.

Agreed but don't use the word atheist. That word already has a widely recognized meaning. Non-theist would be a better term.

Okay, we can use different terms for these things in specific discussions.
Negative atheist = nonbeliever
Positive atheist = disbeliever
But when talking generally there are lots of different definitions of atheist floating around, so there's no reason we shouldn't use the word in the sense we think it should mean, as long as we're willing to clarify which definition we're using.
 
OK, let me ask this then.
Would a positive and a negative atheist answer this question the same way or differently: How do you know there is no God?

If they're both agnostic, then both negative and positive atheists would answer: "We don't."

It's important to remember that belief and knowledge are two different things. Theism and atheism aren't about knowledge, they're about belief. It's gnosticism and agnosticism which refer to knowledge.

Here are the basic positions:
Agnostic Theist: Believes God exists, but claims you have to accept God's existence on faith alone.

Gnostic Theist: Believes God exists, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.

Agnostic Negative Atheist: Holds no beliefs about God, and claims no special knowledge about the existence of God.

Gnostic Negative Atheist: [A self-contradictory position]

Agnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, but bases this belief on the implausibility of the claim that God exists rather than any actual knowledge of God's non-existence.

Gnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.​
That's why I don't like it when people try to use the term "agnostic" to refer exclusively to the negative atheist position. Doing this ties up the words "agnostic" and "gnostic", and makes it difficult to talk about the entire range of positions on the subject.
 
If they're both agnostic, then both negative and positive atheists would answer: "We don't."

It's important to remember that belief and knowledge are two different things. Theism and atheism aren't about knowledge, they're about belief. It's gnosticism and agnosticism which refer to knowledge.

Here are the basic positions:
Agnostic Theist: Believes God exists, but claims you have to accept God's existence on faith alone.

Gnostic Theist: Believes God exists, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.

Agnostic Negative Atheist: Holds no beliefs about God, and claims no special knowledge about the existence of God.

Gnostic Negative Atheist: [A self-contradictory position]

Agnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, but bases this belief on the implausibility of the claim that God exists rather than any actual knowledge of God's non-existence.

Gnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.​
That's why I don't like it when people try to use the term "agnostic" to refer exclusively to the negative atheist position. Doing this ties up the words "agnostic" and "gnostic", and makes it difficult to talk about the entire range of positions on the subject.

Thank you, that is very clear.
 
If they're both agnostic, then both negative and positive atheists would answer: "We don't."

It's important to remember that belief and knowledge are two different things. Theism and atheism aren't about knowledge, they're about belief. It's gnosticism and agnosticism which refer to knowledge.

Here are the basic positions:
Agnostic Theist: Believes God exists, but claims you have to accept God's existence on faith alone.

Gnostic Theist: Believes God exists, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.

Agnostic Negative Atheist: Holds no beliefs about God, and claims no special knowledge about the existence of God.

Gnostic Negative Atheist: [A self-contradictory position]

Agnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, but bases this belief on the implausibility of the claim that God exists rather than any actual knowledge of God's non-existence.

Gnostic Positive Atheist: Believes that God does not exist, and claims to have compelling evidence or a sound logical reason to support that belief.​
That's why I don't like it when people try to use the term "agnostic" to refer exclusively to the negative atheist position. Doing this ties up the words "agnostic" and "gnostic", and makes it difficult to talk about the entire range of positions on the subject.


Athiests filing into identity-crisis centers everywhere, as we speak. :)
 
Tossing out links to fallacies isn't an argument.

Unless... is this a demonstration of how zealot atheists present themselves to believers? No wonder there's no communication.

I'll try again, in the spirit of the forum.

How are pixies, and vampires, and Leprechauns, and gremlins like God?

They are all very likely imaginary, but only one is still on the 'a lot of people believe it' list.

Why are those good analogies? I assume they share some attribute or you wouldn't continue to pair the ideas.

Let's see: All believed in despite a lack of good evidence for thinking they're actually real, and all equally evidenced. Despite the equal evidence, many theists think all but the last one would be a silly thing in which to believe. A better question might be that with all that going for them as analogies, what's your problem with them?
 
Let's see: All believed in despite a lack of good evidence for thinking they're actually real, and all equally evidenced. Despite the equal evidence, many theists think all but the last one would be a silly thing in which to believe. A better question might be that with all that going for them as analogies, what's your problem with them?

It's a mystery to me why that highlighted part is true. Why is God not a silly thing (from the believer's perspective) to believe in?

The reason pixies, and vampires, and Leprechauns, and gremlins are brought into these conversations is because there is an expectation that everyone pretty much believes they don't exist. Which is the case. But God is generally thought to exist, which is certainly a difference of note, isn't it?

A better comparison, or at least a more valid one, would be between God and other things that are false, but which a majority believe in. Like, "sugar makes children hyperactive" or "you have to wait 24 hours to file a missing person report." There are many more of these. If God is a false belief that many share, this would be a more proper category than things that are generally not believed in at all.
 
They are all very likely imaginary, but only one is still on the 'a lot of people believe it' list.



Let's see: All believed in despite a lack of good evidence for thinking they're actually real, and all equally evidenced. Despite the equal evidence, many theists think all but the last one would be a silly thing in which to believe. A better question might be that with all that going for them as analogies, what's your problem with them?


There's an interesting bit of communication. You'll have to do better if you're expecting a banana!

(Sorry, the sad face got to me) :)
 
Pointing them out is one thing. Labeling something a fallacy because one can't grasp the point is quite another. It becomes a conversation killing dodge.

Oh yes. I've already said it. It's a type of begging the question. By claiming God is in the category of make-believe along with these other mythical things, you get to avoid any justification for doing so. God is mythical because He's mythical, like these other mythical things.

More like: you think all these things are mythical, but the evidence for their reality is equal to the evidence for the reality of your deity. What's your justification for considering some of them mythical but one of them real? And does your justification avoid special pleading?

Surely you'd call me out if a believer did it the other way around? Here's how it would look:

Well, if you believe in wind, or sound, or atoms - all things you cannot see - then you have to believe in God too, since God is as real as all those other things, even though you can't see Him.

I hope you can see how foolish such an argument is standing alone.

But why is it foolish? It's foolish because there is other, compelling evidence for those things, compelling evidence which is not available for the God proposition.

Thankfully, another poster handled it much better, claiming that things which are not subject to scientific laws and worldview don't exist, even though people may at times believe they do.

I disagree that what you describe is 'handling it better'. It's a near certainty that some things not within our current scientific worldview actually exist. There's at least a chance that some scientific law doesn't work or apply exactly as we think it does. No one knows for sure what the heck was going on at T=0.

If you mean not a zealot and capable of critiquing my own point of view - ya got me pegged. I don't mind being a thoughtful atheist, I quite enjoy it.

I imagine smugness is a fuzzy, warm feeling. There are few occasions when a participant on a discussion forum can be described as a 'zealot' without a considerable amount of hyperbole being involved. Using it lightly doesn't seem like a characteristic of a genuinely thoughtful person.

If the rule is to brook no dissent and toe the party line, I think it's a bad rule.

There's no such rule. Surely you don't consider people presenting their own opinions in opposition to yours as amounting to 'brooking no dissent'? When you get banned for not being the right kind of atheist, your justification for saying something like that will be much less remote.

Did we at least decide that God isn't an extraordinary claim, but a mainstream claim?

I think you are using 'ordinary' in a different sense than are your interlocutors. Yes, it's ordinary in the sense of 'commonplace'. But it isn't ordinary in the sense of it not involving equally supported contradictory claims or not involving claims of existence without evidence.

It's not the popularity of a claim that makes it ordinary in the sense of being plausible. It's conformity to prior knowledge.

If I claim to have tied my shoelaces this morning, that is an ordinary claim. What makes it ordinary (or plausible) is our prior knowledge: we know there are such things as shoelaces, and that it is not unusual for people to have them and to tie them. Absent other prior knowledge that makes it more doubtful, such as knowing that I'm a quadropalegic, it's reasonable to take my word for my claim that I tied my shoes. In addition, there is little consequence for you to agree, it's no skin off your nose if it turns out that I'm lying, it's a stupid thing to lie about anyway.

But if I claim to have become completely invisible by drinking a formula I discovered in an old notebook, prior knowledge starts working against me. There would seem to be no way one could become invisible through drinking some compound or another, people who are fantasy-prone are likely to lie about such things, people who have certain mental illnesses are likely to be mistaken about such things, it could be the beginning of a con or practical joke (it would be funny if you believed me), and wouldn't securing definitive evidence that I succeeded in becoming invisible be my first order of business? It's not reasonable to take my word for this claim, you should be skeptical and require convincing and verified evidence that what I say is true before you believe it. And the consequence of believing me is that you have to throw our many things that are known to a high degree of certainty in order to accomodate my claim.

But belief in God can be reasonable in a different way, though still not rationally justified in a broad sense: if everyone around you for your whole life believes something (that bad fortune is caused by witches and good fortune by watchful ancestors, for instance) and takes for granted that it's true, it's natural for you to absorb that belief. It doesn't mean you're cognitively impaired or have psychological issues, it's normal for your community. That makes the belief common in your community, not ordinary in the sense that it is supported by prior knowledge. It is likely supported almost entirely by confirmation bias and personal relationships.
 

You missed my point. It is easy to name call and to say 'so and so did it'. That is what we were making comment on. Just because something is done 'in the name of god' does not mean that theist are the ones doing it. People can and do call themselves whatever it takes to get into positions of power and influence over the mob. You know this to be the case so stop hiding behind those silly whatever-they-are-collectively-called labeling links.
 
See... you are now trying to sneak in an underhanded equivocation.


Notice what I said here




So you see when I say I am an atheist I am so in regards to the all but countless and already quite debunked and long dead theos-hypotheses from the annals of human benightedness and folly.

If you have a new hypothesis then we will wait and see if it will be debunked like all the others or if you will be the most famous human being to have ever existed as the INVENTOR of the only GOD that has not yet been debunked.

Are you up to the challenge....can you at least give us a sneak peek at this "God" of yours?... remember it has to be falsifiable.

Again you are ignoring the fact that science is not in the business of proving god(s) do not exist.

Certainly some ideas of god(s) can and have been placed in the no longer relevant box (or burned at the stake - whatever your preference) but you have been ignoring my brilliant arguments throughout this thread.

The more knowledge we gather regarding our human position, the more logical it is to have idea of god(s). Science isn't in the business of providing evidence that god(s) exist either, but it isn't about science - it is about what consciousness does with the knowledge it is finding.

The greater the complexity of the knowledge been obtained, the great the complexity the ideas of god(s) become. Actually it could be argued that the reason the idea of god (singular) came along also has to do with this complexity, but whatever.

You want to engage in past imagery to show horrors of what alleged theists have done to poor innocents as if somehow this is relevant to theists of today, as if somehow there is a point to your argument.

Should I show some imagery of a past Vietnam to show how positive atheists deal with things?
 

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