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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It's only here that ECHR "precedents" carry weight. I can't count the posts that have ensured beyond any doubt Italy committed civil rights offenses against AK.

I don't believe any of them. First, I doubt that non lawyers cherrypicking ECHR judgements truly understand the law or how it is applied. Second, I believe that the calunnia conviction is pretty airtight.

Hopes that AK was provoked into a wild false accusation seem silly to me, as do her claims of physical abuse since she never filed a suit. Given her repeated, voluntary statements confirming her false accusation, I doubt the ECHR will even give it a second look.

While I do believe that it is possible that Numbers might be cherry picking the court cases he is citing, I haven't seen any evidence of that and again you are not providing any case citations or logic to support your position that the callunia conviction is as you say airtight. I am not a lawyer and my guess is that you aren't one either. (Feel free to correct me on my gues) Still I have always found the callunia case to be even weaker than the murder charge. Go back and read her statement that she made. It doesn't accuse Patrick Lumumba of anything actually. It says that she "confusedly remembered" Patrick being there. At best you can say that she mis-remembered. Also I think any reasonable person would offer the benefit of the doubt as to her meaning given that this is so clumsily written and the language difference.
 
While I do believe that it is possible that Numbers might be cherry picking the court cases he is citing, I haven't seen any evidence of that and again you are not providing any case citations or logic to support your position that the callunia conviction is as you say airtight. I am not a lawyer and my guess is that you aren't one either. (Feel free to correct me on my gues) Still I have always found the callunia case to be even weaker than the murder charge. Go back and read her statement that she made. It doesn't accuse Patrick Lumumba of anything actually. It says that she "confusedly remembered" Patrick being there. At best you can say that she mis-remembered. Also I think any reasonable person would offer the benefit of the doubt as to her meaning given that this is so clumsily written and the language difference.

I am another who does not go 100% with Numbers' analysis......

...... but that comes with a huge caveat.

I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

Still, I am loathe to go toe to toe with Numbers on this issue. I would not be able to keep up.

I would love to go toe to toe with griffinmill, but 180-degrees from Numbers, he/she presents nothing really to go toe-to-toe with, other than his/her opinion. Griffinmill is entitled to an opinion.
 
Esquire is for guys only. Avvocato sounds fine to me.

I don't think that is true in the US Anglo. I'm pretty sure the title Esquire here is used for all lawyers . .. Even those at the bottom of the ocean. You know . ... that good start
 
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I am another who does not go 100% with Numbers' analysis......

...... but that comes with a huge caveat.

I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

Still, I am loathe to go toe to toe with Numbers on this issue. I would not be able to keep up.

I would love to go toe to toe with griffinmill, but 180-degrees from Numbers, he/she presents nothing really to go toe-to-toe with, other than his/her opinion. Griffinmill is entitled to an opinion.

griffinmill has not presented any facts here, just conjecture. Come to think of it, seems just like the case against Amanda and Raffaele.
 
I am another who does not go 100% with Numbers' analysis......

...... but that comes with a huge caveat.

I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

Still, I am loathe to go toe to toe with Numbers on this issue. I would not be able to keep up.

I would love to go toe to toe with griffinmill, but 180-degrees from Numbers, he/she presents nothing really to go toe-to-toe with, other than his/her opinion. Griffinmill is entitled to an opinion.

Note that Italy has been found guilty many times by the ECHR. Why do you think this case will be different? Why protect Italy in this particular case?
 
Where was this from? That's another good sign, if they're putting a lid on Maresca.

I wouldn't get my hopes up too much. The negative things that the court has said about the prosecution arguments so far may just be a show that they are being fair. It is like when a cop pulls you over for some traffic infraction. If he starts lecturing you "relax". He is probably not going to write you a ticket. If he was going to write you up he would just do that. Giving you a ticket after enduring a lecture would be like "pilinget on".
 
I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

I agree but this is an exceptionally bad case in many respects. Basically, I think it will go down in the legal books as an example of not to do a case. That is why I consider it more likely to be reviewed than many other cases.
 
It may be Avvocata. The "o" ending in Italian is generally masculine, "a" feminine.

That is about 50% of my Italian language knowledge.

My wife - who lived and worked in Milan for five years, and is fluent - uses "avvocatessa."
 
Numbers, wouldn't the 'multiple attackers' brought in from Guede's fast-track trial be a concern to the ECHR?

Yes. It is difficult to place in one post all the issues of unfairness that are found in the AK-RS case. I have some longer posts on IIP where I have tried to be complete (I may still have missed some points). Some of these, or modifications of them, may be on www.amandaknoxcase.com, the one currently included there may deal primarily with the interrogation and calunnia charge.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/echr-case-law/


I may repost some of my long IIP posts here.
 
I am another who does not go 100% with Numbers' analysis......

...... but that comes with a huge caveat.

I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

Still, I am loathe to go toe to toe with Numbers on this issue. I would not be able to keep up.

I would love to go toe to toe with griffinmill, but 180-degrees from Numbers, he/she presents nothing really to go toe-to-toe with, other than his/her opinion. Griffinmill is entitled to an opinion.
I'm only skeptical of Numbers conclusions only in the sense that I do not know what he may or may not be omitting... not that I think he actually is cherry picking. Just that you don't know what you don't know. I have yet to read a competent opposing argument. Sorry Griffin, but your argument offers nothing but your declarations what the ECHR will do and that the case against Amanda is airtight. Not once do you even offer any logic or citations.

This is not a reasonable counter argument. All it is an opinion seemingly based on nothing but air.
 
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My wife - who lived and worked in Milan for five years, and is fluent - uses "avvocatessa."

In Google Translate, avvocato and avvocatessa are "lawyer", while "avvocata" is "advocate".

Thanks for your language instruction! Now I know another Italian word that is not the name of a form of pasta noodle.
 
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My wife - who lived and worked in Milan for five years, and is fluent - uses "avvocatessa."

If she is fluent, what do these signs say?

0320knox06.jpg


From this article
http://www.newsweek.com/2015/03/27/will-amanda-knox-be-dragged-back-italy-murder-case-314970.html
 
I don't think that is true in the US Anglo. I'm pretty sure the title Esquire here is used for all lawyers . .. Even those at the bottom of the ocean. You know . ... that good start


But then Americans also use "entree" to mean "main course" on a menu. Doesn't make it correct though ;)
 
But then Americans also use "entree" to mean "main course" on a menu. Doesn't make it correct though ;)

What are saying? Surely you must know by now that it really doesn't matter what happens outside the US, Since we are the country that actually matters. You know.... like our football is the real football.
 
anglolawyer,

I know you have explained your reasoning previously, but would you remind me of it?

Four, demonstrable problems with the equipment at the time that the clasp was run, as well as unanswered questions with respect to how the bra clasp electropherograms were produced.

'Reasoning' is too big a word. The point is so simple it sneaks under everybody's radar. Aside from Stefanoni's word, unsupported by any samples or slides, EDFs or an intact clasp itself what exactly is the evidence that there was anything on it? 'Trust me, I'm a scientist' is not good enough. The same problem attends the knife of course. Plus, she's a proven liar.
 
I don't think that is true in the US Anglo. I'm pretty sure the title Esquire here is used for all lawyers . .. Even those at the bottom of the ocean. You know . ... that good start

Right! I am checking that out. I know an American lawyer or three. To be continued ...
 
But then Americans also use "entree" to mean "main course" on a menu. Doesn't make it correct though ;)

It's just a fancy French word that means what it sounds like: "on [the] tray". That obviously refers to the main course.
 
Check the citations

I am another who does not go 100% with Numbers' analysis......

...... but that comes with a huge caveat.

I am not in a position to doubt Numbers' work here about the ECHR. My skepticism comes from knowing how bureaucracies protect themselves.... and ECHR will pick and choose what they accept based on their own internal prejudices which they will not, exactly, advertise on a website.

Still, I am loathe to go toe to toe with Numbers on this issue. I would not be able to keep up.

I would love to go toe to toe with griffinmill, but 180-degrees from Numbers, he/she presents nothing really to go toe-to-toe with, other than his/her opinion. Griffinmill is entitled to an opinion.

I'm only skeptical of Numbers conclusions only in the sense that I do not know what he may or may not be omitting... not that I think he actually is cherry picking. Just that you don't know what you don't know. I have yet to read a competent opposing argument. Sorry Griffin, but your argument offers nothing but your declarations what the ECHR will do and that the case against Amanda is airtight. Not once do you even offer any logic or citations.

This is not a reasonable counter argument. All it is an opinion seemingly based on nothing but air.

Let me address some of the issues brought out above by Bill and acby.

The ECHR is a multinational organization, part of the Council of Europe, which is a confederation of 47 States spanning the European subcontinent, devoted to the promotion of human rights and democracy. As some of us have stated in previous posts here, Ukraine, Russia, Italy, and Turkey are the States with the highest number of pending cases at the ECHR. The ECHR has in its judgments found Italy in violation of the Convention many times. I am not aware of any information that claims that the ECHR has ever shown favoritism for or against any State. Before becoming too concerned about such issues, one should check for any indication of favoritism or bias in the history of the ECHR.

In terms of the selection of case-law, there is a misunderstanding about that. It may be that guilters simply don't wish to invest the time and effort at educating themselves, or have a different agenda, but if one looks into how the ECHR functions, one can understand that there is no "cherry-picking" of judgments. The ECHR starts adjucation with the Convention and with its extant case-law, a certain sense of what are internationally accepted judicial procedures and defendant's rights, and proceeds to judge cases based on common law principles, including following precedent but adapting or evolving law to meet new situations. These concepts are actually not that complicated, although perhaps they are more familiar to persons living in the US, UK, and other common law countries.

Take, for example, the issue of someone under interrogation. The case of Salduz v Turkey [GC] 36391/02 27/11/2008 established that information derived from such a person, who was not provided with counsel during the interrogation, could not be used to convict that person of a crime. Previously, the ECHR had hinted at such ideas, but not really stated them. In fact, the original Chamber judgment in Salduz did not find the lack of a lawyer during the interrogation a violation. It was only after the appeal to the Grand Chamber that this position became case law.

If one starts with the Guide on Article 6: Right to a Fair Trial (criminal limb), available at:
http://echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=caselaw/analysis&c=#n13693846752619364551309_pointer

one can begin to learn the cases and the case-law. One can say that the ECHR has cherry-picked the cases. Additional cases can be found at HUDOC, which is the ECHR library search data-base.

In terms of counter-example cases, those wishing to find them are free to do so. That such counter-example cases have not been presented by guilters may be considered evidence that the counter-examples do not exist.
 
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