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Continuation Part 14: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I cannot bring myself to judge the Kerchers. The human brain has an amazing ability to discard information it does not want to hear. I like to think that in the same situation I would be more logical, I would also like to think that in a really tough interrogation I would not cave to the pressure, but I cannot be sure of either.

If I truly believed that someone had murdered my daughter or son, there would be no punishment I would consider excessive, none.

The same also goes for some lying delusional prosecutor railroading my son or daughter into a 25 or 30 year prison term.

I know plenty of cases where either the victim or the victim's family just simply will not accept the evidence that the defendant is innocent even when there is considerable evidence of innocence.

I am less forgiving of their lawyer however. He is a scumbag.
 
Thats a point Ive never heard before that the RIS Carabinieri handed theirs over without being requested, how very interesting.

Anyway I have some more proof Stefoni is a liar.
I have studied pictures of her.


My method is that I can tell by just looking at pictures of people, "who is guilty, who is lying". Its very easy for me to tell very quickly by using this method of studying pictures.

I dont need any other science, or Judges, no courts needed, I only need to stare at the picture of a person and I can tell very quickly if they are lying. I dont need DNA or Forensic's results, blah on all that...waste of my time!

I call this method of investigation the "Serious Crime Staring at Pictures Method".

Here is an example below-
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:D
Cody
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Why would the Guardian write this?

"At the time, she admitted being in the house on the night Kercher was killed and hearing her screams. Knox later retracted the statement, saying it was coerced, and has maintained that she is innocent, as has Sollecito."

This is just appalling use of the English language.
Actually, maybe I am being hasty.

She admitted.

What can this really mean? She might hypothatically have said, "I admit it is true, I was in the house"
or did the police conclude in a conference after the interrogation,

"Look we all noted that she admitted she was in the house".

Clearly this statement can be taken as " a truth".

The Guardian however is over reaching in saying she admitted being in the house, because this can only be brought forward as a correct stenographic record if she actually was in the house.
 
Desert Fox said:
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I cannot bring myself to judge the Kerchers. The human brain has an amazing ability to discard information it does not want to hear. I like to think that in the same situation I would be more logical, I would also like to think that in a really tough interrogation I would not cave to the pressure, but I cannot be sure of either.

If I truly believed that someone had murdered my daughter or son, there would be no punishment I would consider excessive, none.

The same also goes for some lying delusional prosecutor railroading my son or daughter into a 25 or 30 year prison term.

I know plenty of cases where either the victim or the victim's family just simply will not accept the evidence that the defendant is innocent even when there is considerable evidence of innocence.

I am less forgiving of their lawyer however. He is a scumbag.
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Agreed, Maresca has manipulated the Kerchers for his own benefit, not for theirs. He should be disbarred.

Cody
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Thats a point Ive never heard before that the RIS Carabinieri handed theirs over without being requested, how very interesting.

Anyway I have some more proof Stefoni is a liar.
I have studied pictures of her.


My method is that I can tell by just looking at pictures of people, "who is guilty, who is lying". Its very easy for me to tell very quickly by using this method of studying pictures.

I dont need any other science, or Judges, no courts needed, I only need to stare at the picture of a person and I can tell very quickly if they are lying. I dont need DNA or Forensic's results, blah on all that...waste of my time!

I call this method of investigation the "Serious Crime Staring at Pictures Method".

Here is an example below-

:D you forgot that it also said so in their horoscope
 
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Agreed, Maresca has manipulated the Kerchers for his own benefit, not for theirs. He should be disbarred.

Cody
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Definitely agree with this - the Kercher family have suffered the most horrible tragedy and their grief will likely prevent them from ever being able to look objectively at the evidence - it will always be too clouded by emotion and their pain. However, this is also precisely why they should have no voice during the trial process. How can there be a fair trial process if the family of the victim are begging the courts to convict, it is huge emotional blackmail - and their lawyer should be ashamed
 
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Damn.
I totally give up, Fiona just posted this

"Well said, SA.

It is indeed because of the ******* crazy assertions about this case that I first became aware of it. And I stayed interested because I could not actually believe the poor quality of the arguments adduced in defence of this pair. I have been surprised by the way nothing is ever settled and by the "groundhog day" of the disputes.

I have learned a lot, and forgotten much: I am full of admiration for those who have brought so much time and effort and thought and expertise, and most especially patience, to this and other sites.

And I have been impressed by the mutual care and support of this group for each other. By the humour which lightens what is essentially a tragic issue.

You lot are a credit to the internet!"

She was the sole advocate when Hellmann declared innocence on PMF to attenuate the vicious commenting, stating they must be now accorded the respect and status of legal innocence.

This is a sad day. Rolfe and Fiona had respect for each other, but diverged over this case.
 
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My understanding of the ECHR approach, based on the statements they use as "boilerplate" (repeated in each judgment as applicable) is that they do not evaluate evidence per se; that is the responsibility of the domestic courts. What the ECHR states is that it evaluates whether the specifics of the use of the evidence created an unfair trial.

Thus, the way the Nencini court evaluated or failed to evaluate the evidence provided by the independent experts, Conti and Vecchiotti, may be an issue.

Technically, shouldn't it be said that CSC annulled Hellmann, and the Nencini court reached a different (opposite) conclusion from Hellmann, but without any new inculpatory evidence? The point being that the ECHR would examine the reasoning and use of evidence by the CSC and Nencini, as well as Massei, in contrast to Hellmann.

The counter argument to the BIB would be that the CSC can technically only rule on points of law, so they didn't reach different conclusions to Hellmann based on revisiting the same facts, but rather overturned his verdict on legal grounds. I guess Amanda and Raffaele could try to argue that the CSC overstepped its mandate by ruling on the facts, but even then, that might be a tricky argument to make because the case did go back to a lower court for reassessment. So with Hellmann annulled, Nencini was just confirming Massei - who did hear most of the witnesses - rather than overturning Hellmann. Plus, the ECHR does recognize that in exceptional circumstances witnesses might not be heard in person, and I guess being dead would probably qualify as one of those exceptional circumstances!

There's also the fact that Curatolo wasn't really decisive for the verdict one way or another. If anything was decisive then I think it would have to be the DNA evidence (not least because it was described that way by the CSC) and I wonder if that - along with Amanda's calunnia case being held alongside the murder trial - might be their strongest appeal point. The reversal of the burden of proof suggested in the "impossible" requirement to prove contamination (to quote Gill) seems like a massive issue to me, and definitely the kind of issue in which the ECHR might get involved.
 
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10 13pm in New Zealand.

I believe there is no chance Raffaele returns to jail.
I am also certain that Amanda will be exonerated in substance much more quickly than expected in the ECtHR.

If I am wrong about Raffaele, I will retire for a time, because there is no recourse.
 
From an ECHR tsandpoint, I think Hellman was the last court to hear Curatolo in a trial, and found him totally not credible. It was cassation (Chieffi) who over-ruled Hellman's assessment of Curatollo, which they were not supposed to do (evaluate evidence). So from an ECHR perspective, it doesn't matter whether its nencini or cassation, Hellman was the highest trial court to see Curatolo, and his rejection of Curatolo as credible can't be over-ridden buy another court without also hearing curatolo in person.

That's my understanding, but I may be wrong.

As I say above, technically the SC didn't overturn Hellmann's assessment of Curatolo on factual grounds, but on legal points; the method of assessing the evidence rather than the evidence itself. And the case did then go to a lower court for the factual questions to be addressed, a court which didn't have the option of hearing Curatolo anyway, with him being dead and all. I guess it's something A and R could raise in an appeal to the ECHR, but the DNA reverse burden of proof does seem like a much stronger point to me. Take away Curatolo and they could still have been convicted; take away the DNA evidence and the "confession" and there's nothing left.
 
The counter argument to the BIB would be that the CSC can technically only rule on points of law, so they didn't reach different conclusions to Hellmann based on revisiting the same facts, but rather overturned his verdict on legal grounds. I guess Amanda and Raffaele could try to argue that the CSC overstepped its mandate by ruling on the facts, but even then, that might be a tricky argument to make because the case did go back to a lower court for reassessment. So with Hellmann annulled, Nencini was just confirming Massei - who did hear most of the witnesses - rather than overturning Hellmann. Plus, the ECHR does recognize that in exceptional circumstances witnesses might not be heard in person, and I guess being dead would probably qualify as one of those exceptional circumstances!

There's also the fact that Curatolo wasn't really decisive for the verdict one way or another. If anything was decisive then I think it would have to be the DNA evidence (not least because it was described that way by the CSC) and I wonder if that - along with Amanda's calunnia case being held alongside the murder trial - might be their strongest appeal point. The reversal of the burden of proof suggested in the "impossible" requirement to prove contamination (to quote Gill) seems like a massive issue to me, and definitely the kind of issue in which the ECHR might get involved.

The ECHR is not an appeal court. They are a court that evaluates whether or not a country which is a member of the Council of Europe has violated an applicant's Convention rights. (The other roles of the ECHR are not relevant for this case, so far.)

The CSC annulment of the Hellmann court verdict does not eliminate it from consideration by the ECHR. It routinely evalutes such verdicts with their reasonings, because the ECHR role in such cases as this is determine if there has been any violation of the right to a fair trial (Convention Article 6).

Hellmann essentially overturned Massei. The question before ECHR will be, were the Massei court, the Hellmann court, the CSC, and Nencini, and the next CSC decision each arbitrary or reasonable. The ECHR will review the CSC decisions from a practical viewpoint, and whether CSC decisions were on law or actually on evidence but disguised as points of law, is not so much relevant, as whether the ECHR considers the CSC decisions as compatible with a fair trial.

You are being somewhat legalistic in your interpretations of what ECHR does, and that includes your reference to Curatolo. Of course, the ECHR would not expect the Nencini court to rehear a deceased witness. The question is one of the interpretation by the court of the testimonial record of the witness. Was the Nencini (and CSC) interpretation of Curatolo's testimonies reasonable, in light of the prior testimonies and interpretations, including Hellmann.

Curatolo's evidence does not show that AK and RS committed a murder. In fact, Curatolo's testimony in the Hellmann court, showing he was not reliable on which day (Oct. 31 or Nov. 1) he allegedly saw AK and RS, showed that his testimony was unreliable. How did the Nencini court overcome this, and was the argument reasonable?

You are correct in describing the issue of the alleged DNA evidence as being critical to conviction, but so too may be the prosecution's multiple attacker theory and the findings of Guede's fast-track trial and appeal, and the use of Amanda's statements made without counsel. Did the Nencini court or CSC provide a reasoned argument for the defense being required to prove contamination, or is that a reversal of the burden of proof? How does Nencini counter the independent experts, Conti and Vecchiotti, in their view that the alleged DNA evidence was not reliable? Are the interjections from Guede's trial and appeal, or from any of his uncross-examined statements, a violation of the presumption of innocence and the right to confront a witness? What role did Amanda's statements play in the murder conviction; were they rightfully included or excluded, in light of Salduz v Turkey and all the case-law deriving from that judgment? And is there an Article 3 element (use of inhuman and degrading treatment to elicit statements) to be considered as well?

Again, the ECHR, if and when it reviews this case, which will depend on the final verdict. If there were to be a final acquittal, there may be no ECHR case for the murder. But if there is a final conviction, then the issue of conviction after acquittal will come up, but not in as automatic US-style double jeopardy issue, but as an evaluation of evidence and the use - including interpretation - of evidence. Conviction after acquittal raises concerns about arbitrary reasoning at ECHR, but does not result in an automatic finding of a violation of Article 6. The question whether judicial reasoning was arbitrary or not in the opinion of the ECHR and its view of international judicial standards will arise.
 
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griffinmill - Peter Gill, as has been pointed out, has a perfectly fine career as an academic, and already gets called as an expert witness in trials. Because he's an expert. This "argument" that he's making stuff up about LCN DNA to feather his nest in the future is ridiculous and desperate.
 
The ironic thing is that AFAIK, his book is available only in the USA and is in English. In the book he has a full discussion of the full-court press some members of his family subjected him to. It is ironic because perhaps his family has not read it! Who knows? The upshot of all that was he simply would not lie to save his skin.


Right, he's just content to let other people do it for him. Like I said, maybe it'll turn out to have been a wise strategy.
 
Fair point. BUt Amanda is not in immediate jeopardy like Raf. And soemhow I get the feeling that citizens feel less safe in Italy from well recognized miscarriages of justice.

So not apples to apples. But point well taken.


Yes I know - like I've said, I completely understand Raffaele's approach. If his team feels that the ISC is crazy enough to use the separation argument to acquit Raff (and so far they certainly seem crazy enough) then why not go for it? Raff can't throw Amanda under the bus because of all the stuff he's previously said and written, but he's going as far as he can and allowing his supporters to go further.

I get it, I'm just not going to pretend that the guy's some kind of martyr. He's just an ordinary man up the creek, doing everything he can to fashion a paddle.
 
Right, he's just content to let other people do it for him. Like I said, maybe it'll turn out to have been a wise strategy.

"Content"? Not sure he's been content with anything. My view is that it is hard to fight both the courts and the family at the same time. Also consider that the few rogue family who got duped by guilters on Twitter had no bearing on the legal stuff, and AFAIK he's tried to focus on what the courts are doing.
 
From Kristeva

#RaffaeleSollecito smiling and looking very relaxed. #amandaknox
 
"Content"? Not sure he's been content with anything. My view is that it is hard to fight both the courts and the family at the same time. Also consider that the few rogue family who got duped by guilters on Twitter had no bearing on the legal stuff, and AFAIK he's tried to focus on what the courts are doing.


The legal stuff that apparently can be influenced by a TV show?

What the predictions that the ISC might acquit only Raffaele clearly show is that people know that the court of public opinion is extremely influential. It amazes me that people like Frank are simply stating that only acquitting Raff is an option without shouting from the rooftops how INSANE that is - that the ISC could do something like that simply because the press and TV are now saying he's innocent!

So I do think that public opinion has a bearing on the legal stuff. Apparently so does Bongiorno, and with that understanding Raff is failing to correct people who are smearing Amanda. It's clearly all part of the "strategy".
 
And this from PMF
"Barbie Nadeau interviewed on BBC News. Excellent explanation. She was asked about Americam support for AK and she replied that Americans are coming around to AK not being as innocent as originally thought. So nice to hear without FOA bias."

hmm

Maybe Amanda is not as pregnant as originally thought.

Barbie has a family to feed.
Most people do, including the prosecutor of Debra Mike.

Let us all walk in other peoples' shoes.

(thought for today)
 
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griffinmill - Peter Gill, as has been pointed out, has a perfectly fine career as an academic, and already gets called as an expert witness in trials. Because he's an expert. This "argument" that he's making stuff up about LCN DNA to feather his nest in the future is ridiculous and desperate.

Peter Gill can be an expert for the prosecution as well.

Can griffinmill dispute the accuracy of what Professor Gill has said? I think not.
 
And this from PMF
"Barbie Nadeau interviewed on BBC News. Excellent explanation. She was asked about Americam support for AK and she replied that Americans are coming around to AK not being as innocent as originally thought. So nice to hear without FOA bias."

Maybe Amanda is not as pregnant as originally thought.

Barbie has a family to feed.
Most people do, including the prosecutor of Debra Mike.

Let us all walk in other peoples' shoes.

(thought for today)

No thanks, I prefer my own shoes.
 
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