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Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It is funny how the Knoxians insist on misrepresenting Giobbi.

"He knew Knox was guilty because she was eating a pizza" or whatever (he never said that).

In the famous (poorly translated) youtube video of him, he says absolutely nothing out of the ordinary... he describes what all detectives do and how they come to their conclusions in the course of an investigation.

Its funny, you forget Edgardo Giobbi says this "magical skill" he has, on video.
The entire SCS should be embarrassed for him. Im sure this video will be watched more and more for the Calunnia / Interrogation case. Anyone who would defend this is statement he makes on video is interesting, or very thick.

Not all detectives, do this. Do you supposedly know how ALL DETECTIVES work? You must have "magical skills" like Edgardo Giobbi to "know how ALL DETECTIVES" work.

Funny Edgardo Giobbi placed the picture of Amanda on his wall too, before the trials had finished, and yet hangs no pictures that contain Rudy Guede.

This is more a person that is obstinate, overzealous and ignorant. in my opinion.
 
shedding DNA

I didn't dream your DNA mix-up, y'all mixed up smear (which is chaos) with contamination (which is a rare constructed occurrence).
If Peter Gill lectures all the DNA specialists that came before him on Meredith's case like they're 6 year olds who don't know:
1-What a DNA trace is and how to interpret it as signal/noise
2-How a judge can use a DNA expert and build his case
Then no one should be embarrassed pointing at Peter Gill's simple mistake:
We don't live through our day leaving a trail of DNA.
DNA is produced on impact. Namely all denaturation processes: heat, friction, stress, acid, etc.
RS came in significant collision with Meredith's bra.
Please give it some consideration, Peter Gill is mistaken.
ericparoissien,

Several of us have ask you for citations of your remarkable claims for more than a day now. In addition to the names of some of the people who have been wrongfully suspected or convicted on the basis of erroneous DNA information (see my comment upthread), I would add the names of Josiah Sutton and Timothy Durham.

Here is one more citation (Legislative Landmarks of Forensics: California v. Greenwood and Shed DNA) that indicates that shedding DNA is commonplace. Dr. Leslie A. Pray wrote, "We all shed DNA, leaving traces of our identity practically everywhere we go. Forensic scientists use DNA left behind on cigarette butts, phones, handles, keyboards, cups, and numerous other objects, not to mention the genetic content found in drops of bodily fluid, like blood and semen (Van Oorschot & Jones, 1997)."

Specifically with respect to the clasp, the PG commenters often erroneously refer to the large volume (amount) of DNA Raffaele supposedly left which is not true. With respect to some of the limitation of DNA evidence, I found Meakin and Jamieson's 2013summary to be helpful:

"The published work to date establishes:
a) The possibility, but not the probability, of DNA transfer.
b) It is not possible to use the amount of DNA recovered from a surface to assess whether the DNA was deposited there by a single touch or by regular use.
c) It is not possible to use the amount of DNA recovered from an item of interest to inform whether the DNA was deposited by direct contact or indirect transfer.
d) There is no strong correlation between a full or partial profile and the amount of DNA template (at sub-optimal amounts of DNA)
e) The quality of a DNA profile cannot be used to establish whether the DNA recovered came from the last handler.
f) The number of factors, and the relative effect of those factors, involved in the transfer of DNA is unknown.
g) The initial amount of DNA deposited, and any activity likely to reduce the number of cells or DNA-containing material from donor surfaces (e.g. hand), and the time since those activities, is a key factor in determining the amount of DNA recovered."

Approximately concurrently and since the time that this work was published, Goray and coworkers have published some articles that deal with DNA transfer in a systematic way. Many commenters here have quoted those papers.
 
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If we put you in a room with a bunch of rogue cops who think you've slaughtered someone and who are blathering on at you in a language you don't understand while getting their interpreter to convince you that you lost your mind and then we get one of them to slap you, I expect you'd do a lot too.

It's called inhuman and degrading treatment and it's a violation of a person's human rights.

I am not the subject here so speculating on my actions is off topic.

Can you prove the slap happened?
 
It's because of your habit, guys, here to pack and unison your opinions.
In fact two strategies i have noticed here on months of reading:
1-Packing, one single voice, one single opinion, and months reading you all, you all look one same person to me. (using a voice changer for multiple pranks).
Look at the last 3 pages all posts starts with "Machiavelli", you are ALL ONE person answering to Machivelli, one beast with many mouths (must be a chore to feed).
2-Sniping strategy, you hide behind false names and go hunt for personal intel on people you disagree to get at them in a personal way, under the belt from a hidden rooftop.

lol, thinking of it, maybe they are your real names, real funny names, i didn't take the time to check.
In the meantime i have one blob with many vociferating mouths, coming at me or going on Platonov or Machiavelli, and my feeling is, if i ever become disrespectful with you or engage the personal run-in you seem to be seeking, I'll have some of it all over me.
So "ye'all" will always see me polite and civil here. :)
So yes Matthew (y'all), I'm here.
((LOVE)) (and hugs --metaphorically)

I didn't dream your DNA mix-up, y'all mixed up smear (which is chaos) with contamination (which is a rare constructed occurrence).
If Peter Gill lectures all the DNA specialists that came before him on Meredith's case like they're 6 year olds who don't know:
1-What a DNA trace is and how to interpret it as signal/noise
2-How a judge can use a DNA expert and build his case
Then no one should be embarrassed pointing at Peter Gill's simple mistake:
We don't live through our day leaving a trail of DNA.
DNA is produced on impact. Namely all denaturation processes: heat, friction, stress, acid, etc.
RS came in significant collision with Meredith's bra.
Please give it some consideration, Peter Gill is mistaken.

Your statements are quite remarkable. You continue to display your own self-proclaimed alleged expertise in DNA forensics, but without providing either citations to the literature or your own experimental evidence.

You then complain that (apparently in your opinion) the vast majority of posters here do not agree with your statements, that they are responding to you as if they were one person (statement #1 in the first quote above). Then you complain that the posters here are using screen names and somehow attacking other persons on personal grounds (statement #2 in the first quote).

I will use an analogy to suggest why the impression of your statement #1 occurs. Suppose one posted on a forum devoted to discussing arithmetic. One poster presents a statement, without any proof or references to literature, that in base 10, 2 + 2 = 7. Many other posters on the site immediately object and ask for citations or other evidence to support this assertion. Other posters go on to produce evidence (citations, or mathematical proof or a demonstration) that 2 + 2 = 4. The first poster feels put upon by all this posting contrary to his or her original post. Perhaps there has been some kind of misunderstanding by the first poster of what is the expected content of posts on the arithmetic site.

For your second complaint, I simply do not follow the logic of your statement. Perhaps you have specific examples.
 
But absolutely not. You are simply living in a fantasy world just out of touch with investigation and procedure. First, the, police cannot decide whether a person is a suspect of a charge. A magistrate's decree is needed for that. Second, it is not true that suspicion nor focusing on a person of interest implies the right to a lawyer. A right to lawyer enters in play only if there is already significant and usable circumstantial eidence aggainst the person, or when the person has made declarations that appear prima facie incriminating.
Also, the rigth to a lawyer attaches when the person who is already a formal suspect is interrogated, the status of suspect can be kept secret before that (this was not Knox's case, but it is legal).

This is really disappointing, because I thought that you had moved past this.

First of all, Knox's status as "suspect" will be decided by the ECHR judges (not by some Italian magistrate), and they will examine the actions of the investigators (the police and prosecutors) to determine whether there were objective factors suggesting that the police considered Knox to be a "suspect".

Second, your proposed test for when procedural rights attaches ("there is already significant and usable circumstantial evidence against the person, or when the person has made declarations that appear prima facie incriminating") is not correct. In fact, the cases suggest that simply calling someone a suspect or singling them out is sufficient to confer suspect status and thus trigger procedural rights. In any event, without doubt, Knox was a suspect at the time the police were typing up a statement placing her at the scene of the crime. They never should have asked her to sign it without calling in a lawyer.

Third, although it might be possible to keep secret someone's status as a suspect, and carry out an interrogation, what you cannot do is use the interrogation against the person. And this is exactly what the prosecution did to Knox.
 
I am not the subject here so speculating on my actions is off topic.

Can you prove the slap happened?

More to the point, can the Italians prove that a proper investigation was done to determine whether there was a slap?

Suggested Answer: No.
 
You're accusing Meredith of talking about AK behind her back, which is a bit bitchy - although, it is also very very normal. I doubt whether there have ever been flatmates anywhere in the world that haven't been driven to despair by their housemates habits. It's something we all do - and if anything Meredith probably moaned far less about AK, than I've moaned about some of my ex-housemates. This is only evidence for murder in crazy fantasy land!

This is dodging the point.
The English friends of Meredith presented testimonies.
You will start again telling us about their "talking behind her back" which in your opinion makes them "a bit bitchy", but this is not what we are talking about.
We are talking about a) whether the testimonies of witnesses reporting abot Amanda Knox's behaviours are truthful or false, and b) whether some reported circumstances (not just reported by the English girls, also by others) and facts are actually true.

For example: is it true that, on Halloween night, while Meredith was going at at party she answered an sms from Knox without telling Amanda where she was going, immediately after at about 20:03 Amanda Knox sent back a an sms to Meredith saying "call me back", but then Meredith didn't call back?
And is it true that Amanda that night was alone in town crying, dressed up in a cat costume - until Sollecito called her from home - feeling desperate because Meredith didn't invite her?
 
The Guardian says about the coming Cassation decision:
"If it does not uphold the conviction, the court could also decide to send one or both defendants back to trial, but it does not have the power to acquit Knox or Sollecito outright."

Is that true?
It means that a new appeal phase is the best they can hope for.
 
Sobbing, really - about that? Does any of this stuff relate to the physical evidence of her presence in the murder room?

(...)

But there is physical evidence of them, in the murder room as well as in the rest of the murder scene, it's just that you don't want to see it.
 
The Guardian says about the coming Cassation decision:


Is that true?
It means that a new appeal phase is the best they can hope for.

No, it is not true. According to the Italian CPP Article 620 Annulment without referral, paragraph 1, letter (l),

1. ...the Court of Cassation shall deliver an annulment without referral: ... l) in any other case in which the Court of Cassation believes the referral is superfluous or may proceed to the determination of the sentence or take the necessary decisions.

And CPP Article 621 Effects of the annulment without referral states:

1. In the case provided for in Article 620....letter (l), the Court of Cassation shall proceed to the determination of the sentence or give the necessary instructions.

So the CSC could legally annul without referral and acquit. But that may be a rare occurrence.
 
I am not the subject here so speculating on my actions is off topic.

Can you prove the slap happened?

We have excellent evidence:

"Not only was I told I would be arrested and put in jail for 30 years, but I was also hit in the head when I didn't remember a fact correctly."

That was written hours after the event - very nearly a contemporaneous note. Contrast that with the absence of any evidence adduced by the police in the form of audio recordings or notes to support their version of the course of events in the questura.

All this, of course takes place within an environment where Ms Knox's procedural rights were denied. The ECHR will doubtless form an opinion, which may well be influenced by these fair trial rights violations and the lack of enquiry or investigation into Ms Knox's allegations, together with the fact that her claims are further discussed in later tapped phone conversations.
 
But there is physical evidence of them, in the murder room as well as in the rest of the murder scene, it's just that you don't want to see it.

Really? For Ms Knox? Wow! Where is it? What is it? Blood? Fingerprints? Shoe prints? Saliva? Hair? DNA?

Tell me! Tell me!
 
More to the point, can the Italians prove that a proper investigation was done to determine whether there was a slap?

Suggested Answer: No.

From Lyapin v Russia 46956/09. Excerpts relating to the obligation of a State to investigate allegations of mistreatment by the police (see the highlighted text in para. 127):

125. The Court reiterates that where an individual makes a credible assertion that he has suffered treatment infringing Article 3 at the hands of the police or other similar agents of the State, that provision, read in conjunction with the State’s general duty under Article 1 of the Convention to “secure to everyone within their jurisdiction the rights and freedoms defined in ... [the] Convention”, requires by implication that there should be an effective official investigation. Such investigation should be capable of leading to the identification and punishment of those responsible. Otherwise, the general legal prohibition of torture and inhuman and degrading treatment and punishment would, despite its fundamental importance, be ineffective in practice and it would be possible in some cases for agents of the State to abuse the rights of those within their control with virtual impunity (see, among other authorities, Labita v. Italy [GC], no. 26772/95, § 131, ECHR 2000‑IV).

126. The investigation into serious allegations of ill-treatment must be both prompt and thorough. The authorities must always make a serious attempt to find out what happened and should not rely on hasty or ill‑founded conclusions to close their investigation or as the basis of their decisions. They must take all reasonable steps available to them to secure the evidence concerning the incident, including, inter alia, eyewitness testimony and forensic evidence. Any deficiency in the investigation which undermines its ability to establish the cause of injuries or the identity of the persons responsible will risk falling foul of this standard (see, for example, Kopylov v. Russia, no. 3933/04, § 133, 29 July 2010). Thus, the mere fact that appropriate steps were not taken to reduce the risk of collusion between alleged perpetrators amounts to a significant shortcoming in the adequacy of the investigation (see, mutatis mutandis, Ramsahai and Others v. the Netherlands [GC], no. 52391/99, § 330, ECHR 2007‑II, and Turluyeva v. Russia, no. 63638/09, § 107, 20 June 2013). Furthermore, the investigation must be independent, impartial and subject to public scrutiny (see Mesut Deniz v. Turkey, no. 36716/07, § 52, 5 November 2013). It should result in a reasoned decision to reassure a concerned public that the rule of law had been respected (see, mutatis mutandis, Kelly and Others v. the United Kingdom, no. 30054/96, § 118, 4 May 2001).

127. It falls to the State to have recourse to a procedure which would enable it to take all measures necessary for it to comply with its positive obligation of effective investigation imposed by Article 3 (see, mutatis mutandis, Sashov and Others v. Bulgaria, no. 14383/03, §§ 64, 68 and 69, 7 January 2010; see also Vanfuli v. Russia, no. 24885/05, § 79, 3 November 2011; Nechto v. Russia, no. 24893/05, § 87, 24 January 2012; and Nitsov v. Russia, no. 35389/04, § 60, 3 May 2012).
 
Nah. You were explaining why Mignini was so certain that Amanda hated Meredith: because of Meredith's behaviour gradually cutting her out from friendship circle,

And I said that that that was "Kind of a snotty thing to say about the victim. I don't think Meredith was nearly as catty and vicious as the rest of the English women turned out to be . . . or at least, again, there's no evidence that she ever did any such thing."

So, this what you think about the English friends of Meredith, catty and vicious... That judgement was what I found most revealing of you.

The issue you keep avoiding is why anything those English women said is evidence about what Amanda thought or felt.

I don't think I understand. Don't you think testimonies are evidence? Don't you think they may contain information about someone's personality, behaviour and attitudes, by reporting facts and experiences?

This isn't complicated at all. I made an observation about the English women's behavior, about a specific thing they did that was catty and vicious. It's called gossip. They were clearly talking about another person behind her back. I didn't diagnose them as psychologically abnormal as you have done to Amanda.

You just called them catty and vicious, this is something I found remarkable, first because from my view they did absolutely nothing to deserve such name calling, and above all because you were actually using such judgement about them as an argument to dismiss their testimony as untruthful or biased ("not evidence").

c) Sophie thought that Amanda was a showoffy attention-seeker during the few times Sophie was in Amanda's company. This doesn't meant Sophie is lying, and it's not the evidence that she was catty.

Well it's not just about what Sophie thought, and it was not Sophie alone. Several witnesses reported about specific episodes about Knox's behaviour.

Sophie might very well have been annoyed by Amanda, so she's telling the truth. When she says that she and Meredith and the others were discussing Amanda's bathroom habits, she's admitting to being catty.

Then why do you say "I don't think Meredith was nearly as catty and vicious as the rest of the English women turned out to be".

Why do you create this difference between two sets of charachters, the English friends on one side, and Meredith on the other? Look, when you just placed them together in the same action "Meredith and the others were discussing".
What you did in fact, is to first decide to isolate the English Grils as a set, on a basis inconsistent with your assumption; then, you decide to lable them with the judgemental lable "catty and vicious".
What did you do then? You accused me of being prejudicial and amateurish in my judgement of Amanda Knox, and then you also blamed me of judgeing Meredith "catty and vicious".
Don't you notice some hypocrisy in your reasoning?

Mature people don't talk behind each others' backs. They either accept that not everybody is like them, or if the situation warrants it, they work through differences.

Of course. What a nice lecture. Which rests entirely on the assumption that Knox was "normal", that she only deserved to be accepted, although she was not like them. An interesting point of view.
But does it typical of mature people to burst out in tears because Meredith did not call her back? Is it, let's see it in the widest and less judgemental meaning, a psychologically "normal" situation? Is it a "normal" episode - meaning typical of the normality of our everyday feeling?
Or is it instead an emotional, and a stressful situation? An episode with psychological implications?

The point is that whatever Sophie or Meredith thought of Amanda, it can't be evidence about what Amanda felt about Meredith.

Well, I think what they thought can be evidence of Amanda's personality, and even more, the episodes that they reported can be.
 
Unless you slap her in the back of the head, then she'll do anything you ask.

Because a person has moments of weakness does not mean that they are not strong in general. I would call Eric Wilson of the Norfolk Four a strong person and would like to meet him actually. Still under police question, he broke and admitted to a crime which he did not commit. Her confession is weak sauce compared to his as well.
 
The mind, it is boggled. What does this mean? Amanda Knox was sobbing over being rejected by Meredith?

Where on earth did you hear that?

Isn't what Nina Burleigh reports in The Fatal Gift of Beauty at p.178? Saying she whimpered and wept "for nearly two hours straight".

Burleigh is certainly not a guilter source, someone must have told her.
But don't you think it is even just striking the fact that, when she was back in Seattle, on the first Halloween party following her release she decided to wear again exactly the same cat-burglar costume?
 
[...]
Funny Edgardo Giobbi placed the picture of Amanda on his wall too, before the trials had finished, and yet hangs no pictures that contain Rudy Guede.
[...]
I think Guede is there, in the picture in the upper left:
picture.php

The picture was taken when he returned to Italy:
039RudyGuedeDM_468x355.jpg
 
This is dodging the point.
The English friends of Meredith presented testimonies.
You will start again telling us about their "talking behind her back" which in your opinion makes them "a bit bitchy", but this is not what we are talking about.
We are talking about a) whether the testimonies of witnesses reporting abot Amanda Knox's behaviours are truthful or false, and b) whether some reported circumstances (not just reported by the English girls, also by others) and facts are actually true.

For example: is it true that, on Halloween night, while Meredith was going at at party she answered an sms from Knox without telling Amanda where she was going, immediately after at about 20:03 Amanda Knox sent back a an sms to Meredith saying "call me back", but then Meredith didn't call back?
And is it true that Amanda that night was alone in town crying, dressed up in a cat costume - until Sollecito called her from home - feeling desperate because Meredith didn't invite her?

You're making Meredith seem like a Mean Girl again. It's like an episode of Beverley Hills 90210 - oh the teen angst nonsense!
 
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