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Continuation: 'What about building 7?'

jaydeehess

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This is a continuation of the original 'What about building 7?' thread, which had got very long. The split point was arbitrary, and participants are welcome to quote from the old thread into this one
Posted By: Agatha


He is simply wrong - and in multiple ways. Explanation if anyone needs it.

Better in an appropriate thread.

The base problem is failure to understand the 3D realities of the cascade failure of the initiation stage.

Both sides in the debate have routinely fallen for the trap of 1D approximations which do not apply - they are not what happened.

Better in a more appropriate thread.

It amazes me that an engineer cannot understand that load safety factors ASSUME that the structural SYSTEM is intact.

Its the three legged stool thing again, take out one leg and it still functions for loads 2/3rds that of the design, right? Lol.

Four legged chair with solid leg spreaders. Heck the spreaders don't support any weight, take them out at no risk to loading maximums, right?
 
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People associated with AE911Truth have certainly acted like scientists...

No.

People realize that the only ones actively fighting our cause are ranting people like you, and this is why posting on forums has been helpful.

Or another perspective is that the only people who pay attention to you are random people on the internet forums you frequent, who contribute mostly out of mild interest and boredom, not out of some fervor equal but opposite to your own.

...this is why I told Rick and Chris Mohr this would be a final experiment.

I'm not sure how pretending to sit in judgment of a forum you joined voluntarily out of need is a compelling argument. Besides, the "social experiment" meme is entirely too threadbare in conspiracist rhetoric.

Lastly, your continued droning on about alleged support by the majority of scientists in BS, and your inability to find anyone to represent you in public debates...

Well, let's just hit the nail right on the head. You desperately want people to oppose and debate you on your terms. Your terms, however, are publicity-oriented. Sound bites and townhall debates. David-and-Goliath battles of wits. Exercises designed to stir up public sentiment and garner attention, and to portray the semblance of rigor, but not designed to test fact or arrive at truth in any meaningful or systematic way.

Public debates are not how science is done. Science is a deliberate process, insulated as much as possible from the vicissitudes of politics and the fickle fervor of the madding crowds. You want the attention of mainstream experts in order to legitimize your cause, not to actually participate in the scientific process. If you wanted the latter, it has been open to you the whole time.

Getting scientists to really make the effort to dig into the reports is tricky, but we have found that most that do end up supporting us...

I don't see how your membership numbers support that claim.
 
I liked this bit:

Richard and others lecture at AIA conventions and universities etc to reach scientific audiences and that is how most of the archtect and engineering new recruits are added to our list.


Perhaps Ziggi is unaware that the AIA want nothing to do with Richard Gage and ae911truth:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=240364

The AIA itself, however, is firm about its relationship with Gage. “We don’t have any relationship with his organization whatsoever,” Scott Frank, head of media relations for the AIA, told me.

“I can’t tell you how grateful we were to have been accepted to be here in the boardroom at the national headquarters,” Gage said. “We hope this is the beginning of a very productive relationship.”

Aside from Gage, though, there was not a single other architect in the room, much less an official from AIA, or even another member. The 80-strong crowd was made up largely of members of the local 9/11 Truth movement and other political activists.

"It is somewhat troubling that he sort of portrays the notion that we have a relationship when we certainly do not,” Frank said.

Gage should not expect those invitations [to speak at future AIA conventions] any time soon, according to Frank: “There is absolutely zero relationship … [between our groups], nor will there ever be in the future.”





But this is to gently drift away from the topic, which remains, as it always must: WTC7.

Come on truthers, make 2015 the year you really nail this floppy coot of a non-issue :)
 
First let me identify your persistent foundation errors:
1) your reasoning continues to follow the error you made back with "Missing Jolt" - the error of taking the B&Z assumption of a falling upper member landing on a static lower tower - and relying on that assumption as if it actually happen. It didn't happen that way. And what did happen did not leave the scenario for "Missing Jolts" or your other claims based on that same erroneous foundation;
2) you reasoning shows no recognition of the reality of:
(a) The initiation stage for WTC1 and WTC2 collapses was a "cascading" failure; AND
(b) Your explanations treat the process as block on block - not as the cascading failure which actually occurred which was an interaction of multiple individual members connected in a framework.

You'd think by now one of those truthers would've gotten an actual degree in engineering or something.
 
It amazes me that an engineer cannot understand that load safety factors ASSUME that the structural SYSTEM is intact...
True - and that is only one aspect. Recall my comment was "He is simply wrong - and in multiple ways."

ONE of those multiple ways where he is wrong is applying the FOS globally - whether by explicit statement or by implication. At any stage of the cascading collapse - and stated simply - the ONLY member for which the alleged FOS has to be overwhelmed is the current weakest member which is destined to be the next to fail in the cascade sequence. And there are several other aspects of his errors which flow off that one.

Likewise on the issue of heating the ONLY member which needs to be heated is that same one destined to be the next member to fail in the cascade. And it only needs heating enough to ensure that - in combination with the existing load AND any overload from load redistribution AND any worsened Euler buckling risks due to removal of braces - the heating is to a temperature where that member fails under the combination of those key factors - unbraced length, load and temperature.

Sure the time delays - and temperature dispersion - in the heating will ensure that a lot more members get to be heated. That is reality anyway. BUT the usual truther implied "all columns must be heated" is.....faeces of the male bovine.

Its the three legged stool thing again, take out one leg and it still functions for loads 2/3rds that of the design, right? Lol.

Four legged chair with solid leg spreaders. Heck the spreaders don't support any weight, take them out at no risk to loading maximums, right?
I'll take those as rhetorical questions. :rolleyes:
 
Looks to me like TS painted himself into a corner with his absurd arson/floating thermite bilge and set about changing the subject to WTC1 and "missing jolt".
 
The FOS is a red herring... IF you sum the cross section of all the columns at any particular level in the building and you take the sum of all the axial loads at the time... assuming you can get this accurately... and you know the strength of each of the columns and factor in temperature and unsupported length of the columns.. you can get an overall FOS value but it like would not be what any particular column's FOS is as the the structure and the loads are simply not uniform. When some columns were/are taken out the individual columns' FOS will change... If one of them drops below FOS 1 then you can set of a runaway series of failures as fewer columns are left supporting the original axial loads. FOS then is dynamic not static... as loads and columns conditions change.
 
The FOS is a red herring... IF you sum the cross section of all the columns at any particular level in the building and you take the sum of all the axial loads at the time... assuming you can get this accurately... and you know the strength of each of the columns and factor in temperature and unsupported length of the columns.. you can get an overall FOS value but it like would not be what any particular column's FOS is as the the structure and the loads are simply not uniform. When some columns were/are taken out the individual columns' FOS will change... If one of them drops below FOS 1 then you can set of a runaway series of failures as fewer columns are left supporting the original axial loads. FOS then is dynamic not static... as loads and columns conditions change.
Correct Sander.


And some members may find that your way of saying it is more easily understood than mine.
clap.gif
 
Looks to me like TS painted himself into a corner with his absurd arson/floating thermite bilge and set about changing the subject to WTC1 and "missing jolt".

Sure. Different corner - same result - no legitimate way out other than backtrack away from the error that put him in the corner.

Both errors blatant.

For WTC7 the real issue is that whether NIST was right or wrong the detail he disputes is not significant.

For WTC1 (or WTC2 - same principle) he is fundamentally wrong. The scenario for Missing Jolt simply never existed.
 
Sure. Different corner - same result - no legitimate way out other than backtrack away from the error that put him in the corner.

Both errors blatant.

For WTC7 the real issue is that whether NIST was right or wrong the detail he disputes is not significant.

For WTC1 (or WTC2 - same principle) he is fundamentally wrong. The scenario for Missing Jolt simply never existed.

It is almost incomprehensible that anyone with any training in engineering would believe that a structure that is buckling would land precisely on its supports with no lateral movement. (Not even considering the OBVIOUS lateral movement that is seen in the video / photos of the "tilt" of the upper structure" It really falls into the realm of wishful thinking......and yet Z thinks they act like scientists. :rolleyes:
 
I this post, gerrycan quoted two questions I had asked him several times already, and then answered zero of them. Again.


So I have to ask again:

1.) gerrycan, are you involved in the FEA project announced by AE911Truth as part of their "ambitious agenda for 2015"? If so, in what capacity? If not, do you know who is leading this effort, who is participating?


2.) gerrycan, is it TRUE or FALSE that, in NIST's 16-story model, the the columns were fixed laterally only at the bottom and the top, and that all columns were thus able to move laterally (in x- and y-axis) everywhere between top and bottom, if subject to corresponding forces that may arise from the heating regime?
Note that the best answer to this question is only one word: Either "TRUE" or "FALSE", and no good explanation of your answer would mention any particular connection. Please answer only the question I ask you, not some unstated question you want to ask yourself to conveniently evade my question. Thank you.
 
Looks to me like TS painted himself into a corner with his absurd arson/floating thermite bilge and set about changing the subject to WTC1 and "missing jolt".
Maybe Tony would like to explain how these cars caught fire PRIOR to collapse?


 
1.) gerrycan, are you involved in the FEA project announced by AE911Truth as part of their "ambitious agenda for 2015"? If so, in what capacity? If not, do you know who is leading this effort, who is participating?
I linked to this article before:

[...] in June 2013, [David Cole] decided to join the AE911Truth's NIST Pursuit Team to further that goal.

Team leader Tony Szamboti [...]
http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/affiliate-marketing-program/880-volunteer-spotlight-david-cole.html

And it seems that either I was wrong about there being two teams, or that both gerrycan and David Cole belong to two teams. If the former, strange that gerry has not parroted Tony's claims. [ETA: that's assuming that gerrycan is not David Cole, which he might be.]
 
...and yet Z thinks they act like scientists. :rolleyes:

Last year I wrote at some length about the contrasts between the approach taken by AE911T and that of other professional and scientific organizations. I won't rehash it here, but it's perhaps summarized best by misquoting Sigourney Weaver in Ghostbusters -- "[AE911T is] more like a game-show host." I don't see much activity from them that I would characterize as scientific; I see a lot of effort put toward rather overt showboating.

Ziggi certainly isn't alone in the venue-shopping game. It's rather common across conspiracy genres. Unable to gain a toehold in legitimate scientific circles, they propose a new "legitimacy" that's coincidentally connected to proving their relevance in the public mind. The conventional narrative has already been published in the customary way and accepted by a near unanimity of the relevant professions. The notion that it must additionally withstand every fringe claim via mano y mano combat in order to be scientifically valid is a pretty comical proposal. It's a pretty transparent plea for attention from those fringe groups.

I'm reasonably okay with the notion of AE911T as a political action group rather than a professional and/or scientific organization. The right of people to organize themselves toward some political end is one of the most hallowed rights Americans hold dear, and one that should be protected and defended at all costs. But I don't have any confidence in AE911T as a scientific organization.

Perhaps Ziggi is unaware that the AIA want nothing to do with Richard Gage and ae911truth...

Indeed it's difficult to find claims of endorsement or approval that don't turn out to be exaggerations or misrepresentations. When I think of legitimacy in the field of advanced structural design for buildings, I think of ASCE, AIA, and possibly also ASME -- none of which seems to want anything to do with Gage et al. We are still struggling to determine the true nature of the threats to reveal NIST's alleged sins to "the Europeans" for castigation. It seems to be mere bluster. And we were recently treated to the rather unintimidating sight of a card table and hand-drawn posters at a university, played up as some sort of major coup.

AIA's "...and never will be" fairly firmly slams the door on the assertion that AE911T is gaining credibility among the relevant professions. As I have said many times, conspiracism is not about looking for truth or fact; it's about perpetuating the semblance of a conspiracy theory's relevance. That's why the discussion spins in circles, never attempts to establish competence via the customary means, and endorses activities that serve only to emphasize visibility and notoriety. There was a glimmer of hope when they announced their intent to accept a burden of proof on the WTC 7 structural analysis. Whatever comes of it only time will tell. But I would say that bona fide efforts along those lines do more to serve AE911T's claim to be scientists much more than the popular lecture circuit and coup-counting exercises in web forums.

The reason, I believe, that WTC 7 is the new rock star of the Truth movement is because it lacks sufficient concern to have warranted a lengthy, detailed investigation. And therefore, as has been said and reiterated, it provides the critical vacuum that lets conspiracy theorists do with ambiguity what has been done in other conspiracy genres. When they can demonstrate the willingness to do more than just stir up vague controversy over an also-collapsed, then they might stand a chance of meeting gatekeeper criteria in the real sciences.
 
I linked to this article before:

[...] in June 2013, [David Cole] decided to join the AE911Truth's NIST Pursuit Team to further that goal.

Team leader Tony Szamboti [...]
http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/affiliate-marketing-program/880-volunteer-spotlight-david-cole.html

And it seems that either I was wrong about there being two teams, or that both gerrycan and David Cole belong to two teams. If the former, strange that gerry has not parroted Tony's claims. [ETA: that's assuming that gerrycan is not David Cole, which he might be.]

David Cole posts on other boards (the911forum, 911Blogger) as "kawika".
I don't think gerrycan is Cole/kawika.
That "NIST Pursuit" team, which was lead by child molester John DiNatale in 2013, has most recently been listed as "vacant".

Tony told me in private communication that he is not involved with AE911T's WTC7 FEA project, and doesn't know who is. I assume Tony didn't flat-out lie to me. Tony also left the Board of AE911T, something I wouldn't do if I were to lead the most important piece of research the group has ever attempted.
 
David Cole posts on other boards (the911forum, 911Blogger) as "kawika".
I don't think gerrycan is Cole/kawika.
That "NIST Pursuit" team, which was lead by child molester John DiNatale in 2013, has most recently been listed as "vacant".

Tony told me in private communication that he is not involved with AE911T's WTC7 FEA project, and doesn't know who is. I assume Tony didn't flat-out lie to me. Tony also left the Board of AE911T, something I wouldn't do if I were to lead the most important piece of research the group has ever attempted.
Thank you, that's interesting information. It makes me wonder whether that effort is still alive then.
 
True - and that is only one aspect. Recall my comment was "He is simply wrong - and in multiple ways."

ONE of those multiple ways where he is wrong is applying the FOS globally - whether by explicit statement or by implication. At any stage of the cascading collapse - and stated simply - the ONLY member for which the alleged FOS has to be overwhelmed is the current weakest member which is destined to be the next to fail in the cascade sequence. And there are several other aspects of his errors which flow off that one.

Likewise on the issue of heating the ONLY member which needs to be heated is that same one destined to be the next member to fail in the cascade. And it only needs heating enough to ensure that - in combination with the existing load AND any overload from load redistribution AND any worsened Euler buckling risks due to removal of braces - the heating is to a temperature where that member fails under the combination of those key factors - unbraced length, load and temperature.

Sure the time delays - and temperature dispersion - in the heating will ensure that a lot more members get to be heated. That is reality anyway. BUT the usual truther implied "all columns must be heated" is.....faeces of the male bovine.


I'll take those as rhetorical questions. :rolleyes:

Indeed they are.
 

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