Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Yes, I followed that discussion of yours. I kept wondering why they did that, was it just grandstanding on the issue of capitol punishment? Annoyances over the Gondola tragedy or another related issue? Did they have reason to believe the person was innocent? It was an odd thing to do and it along with previous refusals by the US, UK and other countries to refuse extradition to Italy despite treaties ought to clue people into the fact it's not going to be a slam dunk and they ought not to pay much attention to those people who think it might be.

There's a part of me hoping that Cassation confirms--and then the US calls 'fraud' and demands the EDFs and interrogation tapes.

The Cavalese cable car disaster was after the refusal to extradite Pietro Venezia. The extradition request would have been around the 1995 time frame while the cable care incident was in 1998.
 
Why did not the professionals who assessed her during her incarceration come to this conclusion?

See this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10543516#post10543516

No expert psychiatrist assessed her as far as I know, I mean nobody who presented a report and a testimony.

And nobody could have ever be tasked with presenting a testimony about her possible "personality issues", because this is not a task that an expert can be given in a trial, nor that a judicial officer could be interested in.
 
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In all this discussion about the potential extradition battle for Knox - with more than one anonymous State Dept source now apparently saying that if the convictions were confirmed and Knox's extradition were sought, the US would refuse to extradite - have the pro-guilt commentators yet managed to figure out that this wouldn't be a case of the US protecting a "murderer"?

If the reports (and the sources) are accurate, then the reason why the US would refuse to extradite Knox would be this: the US Government doesn't think Knox should be convicted of murder, and that any such conviction in an Italian court would be a miscarriage of justice. Knox is a private citizen of no other importance (strategic, military or otherwise) to the US Government, so there can be no other reasonable explanation for a refusal to extradite.

Perhaps the pro-guilt commentators might care to dwell on this factor for a while. Why might the US Government consider this to be a miscarriage of justice, and to conclude this so strongly as to refuse extradition? Could it possibly be that, under reasoned non-partisan analysis, there are clear indications of a miscarriage of justice? Surely not! (Obviously the more stupid and blinkered pro-guilt commentators are likely to retreat under the banner of "Bad old America protecting its own regardless", but maybe this might just give one or two of them pause for thought.....)

I would also argue that there is constitutional law here to consider. . . .If Amanda was guilty, it still would likely be unconstitutional to allow her to be extradited after being acquitted. There is at least one case where a serial killer had to be released because the evidence gathered against him was 'Fruit of the Poisoned Tree"
 
See this:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10543516#post10543516

No expert psychiatrist assessed her as far as I know, I mean nobody who presented a report and a testimony.

And nobody could have ever be tasked with presenting a testimony about her possible "personality issues", because this is not a task that an expert can be given in a trial, nor that a judicial officer could be interested in.

Mignini mentioned the assessment of a 'graphologist' at some point in the Massei trial, I think it was his close. As I think on it I believe Mignini claimed the 'graphologist' saw indications of narcissm in Amanda Knox's handwriting and that Raffaele's indicated he was a mewling slaveboy--something like that.

I had a French instructor who was very much interested in 'graphology' back in the early nineties. A very nice guy and a good professor, but he was unable to convince me of the validity of 'graphology.'
 
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But she was assessed and a psychologist (or perhaps psychiatrist) testified.

But no, she wasn't assessed.

A psychiatrist testified as defence witness, Prof. Caltagirone, he was called by the defence to present expert testimony that the defendant suffered from false memory syndrome.

I think the expert never met her in person btw, but only analysed her testimonies.
Anyway the task of assessing false memory syndrome is not the same of assessing personality issues (as said, you can't have an expert to testify just about a defendant's personality).

Mignini had asked for the opinion of Vincenzo Maria Mastronardi, a forensic psychiatrist, but only for an analysis of Knox's writing and only for investigation purposes, he never called him to testify.
 
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The person who said that Rudy changed his pants that night due to them being soaked with blood is the same person who testified that Rudy cut his hand in the course of the crime.

And, that person would be Rudy Guede.

The testimony I was hoping for, was from one of the guys downstairs saying;

"yes, I noticed a pair of my pants were missing", or,

"No, that's not how we left the apartment, and the cat couldn't bleed that much if it fell into the blender", and,

"no, the cat has never messed up the apartment, locked doors, bled on a light switch, or taken down curtains or shower rods on any other occasion that I can recall".

Stuff like that. The guys downstairs would know if their clothes had been ransacked, and anything missing. Wasn't there some claim of wet shower sandals downstairs?

Now I'm pretty sure cats don't like taking showers, with or without sandals.
 
Mignini mentioned the assessment of a 'graphologist' at some point in the Massei trial, I think it was his close. As I think on it I believe Mignini claimed the 'graphologist' saw indications of narcissm in Amanda Knox's handwriting and that Raffaele's indicated he was a mewling slaveboy--something like that.

I had a French instructor who was very much interested in graphology back in the early nineties. A very nice guy and a good professor, but he was unable to convince me of the validity of 'graphology.'

I am not entirely convinced either, at least not beyond only some basic information (for example I do believe it may be possible to spot visible elements such as obsessive-compulsive attitude, intelligence or creativity from writings, but maybe not much more, or not by a scientifically convincing method).
However Mastronardi was not called to testify, and I'm not thinking about him as for my opinions on Knox's personality.
 
I am not entirely convinced either, at least not beyond only some basic information (for example I do believe it may be possible to spot visible elements such as obsessive-compulsive attitude, intelligence or creativity from writings, but maybe not much more, or not by a scientifically convincing method).
However Mastronardi was not called to testify, and I'm not thinking about him as for my opinions on Knox's personality.

An of course you set no value to the people in Seattle that know her?
 
I am not entirely convinced either, at least not beyond only some basic information (for example I do believe it may be possible to spot visible elements such as obsessive-compulsive attitude, intelligence or creativity from writings, but maybe not much more, or not by a scientifically convincing method).
However Mastronardi was not called to testify, and I'm not thinking about him as for my opinions on Knox's personality.

.....................................................and?

Who ARE you thinking of? Probably Mignini's psychic.
 
But no, she wasn't assessed.

A psychiatrist testified as defence witness, Prof. Caltagirone, he was called by the defence to present expert testimony that the defendant suffered from false memory syndrome.

I think the expert never met her in person btw, but only analysed her testimonies.
Anyway the task of assessing false memory syndrome is not the same of assessing personality issues (as said, you can't have an expert to testify just about a defendant's personality).

Mignini had asked for the opinion of Vincenzo Maria Mastronardi, a forensic psychiatrist, but only for an analysis of Knox's writing and only for investigation purposes, he never called him to testify.
So in other words there is no evidence to back up your smears on someone you do not know.
 
In all this discussion about the potential extradition battle for Knox - with more than one anonymous State Dept source now apparently saying that if the convictions were confirmed and Knox's extradition were sought, the US would refuse to extradite - have the pro-guilt commentators yet managed to figure out that this wouldn't be a case of the US protecting a "murderer"?

If the reports (and the sources) are accurate, then the reason why the US would refuse to extradite Knox would be this: the US Government doesn't think Knox should be convicted of murder, and that any such conviction in an Italian court would be a miscarriage of justice. Knox is a private citizen of no other importance (strategic, military or otherwise) to the US Government, so there can be no other reasonable explanation for a refusal to extradite.

Perhaps the pro-guilt commentators might care to dwell on this factor for a while. Why might the US Government consider this to be a miscarriage of justice, and to conclude this so strongly as to refuse extradition? Could it possibly be that, under reasoned non-partisan analysis, there are clear indications of a miscarriage of justice? Surely not! (Obviously the more stupid and blinkered pro-guilt commentators are likely to retreat under the banner of "Bad old America protecting its own regardless", but maybe this might just give one or two of them pause for thought.....)
The highlighted part doesn't work either, because they hold that
1. She is a sadistic sex killer.
2. Apart from that she is a vanilla citizen of no interest to the authorities.

Indeed they have searched high and low for any precedent for other than a swift extradition unannounced beforehand. Fly by night is a particular expert on this...
 
Do you know in which cases the ECHR has ruled that this sort of conviction is unfair? I thought the ECHR considered double jeopardy to occur only after someone has been "finally" acquitted.

Technically, you are absolutely correct. This situation is not called "double jeopardy" by the ECHR, but remains a violation of Convention Article 6 as an unfair trial, because the same evidence was used to convict as to acquit. That is unreasonable to the ECHR. The other concern that they raised about the fairness of such convictions after acquittal is that they may be based solely on reviews of the trial record, the witnesses and defendant not being called before the court, which may be a Supreme Court of Cassation. ECHR has stated that judges should directly evaluate evidence in finding guilt in a case where they are making a final ruling overturning a previous acquittal.

I've posted the cases here, I think in thread 12 or even 11. I will repost them after I find them again!
 
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I think Knox is "abnormal", meaning she had some personality disorders . . .

I would consider Knox psychologically abnormal . . .

I think the evidence - the visible symptoms of narcissistic pathology - were simply visible themselves. . .

Knox could never fit the picture of a healthy or balanced personality, of a "normal" personality, certainly not when she was 20.

This is so funny! :D Somebody here is a narcissist, alright.

Here's a hint: It's not the college student. It's the dude watching her every expression in a courtroom and then going forth to proclaim his profound certainty about who she really is. Holy living mother of jeebus.
 
But no, she wasn't assessed.

A psychiatrist testified as defence witness, Prof. Caltagirone, he was called by the defence to present expert testimony that the defendant suffered from false memory syndrome.

I think the expert never met her in person btw, but only analysed her testimonies.
Anyway the task of assessing false memory syndrome is not the same of assessing personality issues (as said, you can't have an expert to testify just about a defendant's personality).

Mignini had asked for the opinion of Vincenzo Maria Mastronardi, a forensic psychiatrist, but only for an analysis of Knox's writing and only for investigation purposes, he never called him to testify.

Mach, seems like you keep reaching for things, no matter how small, irrelevant, or prejudicial, which would allow you to conclude Knox and/or Raf MAY have committed the murder, staged the break-in etc.

But when it comes down to actually reconstructing the crime scene, you completely fail to address the evidence of ONLY Rudy Guede in the murder room.

Instead you have suggested things like, Amanda and Raf stabbing Meredith, and then "immediately running out of the room", or Amanda and raf "sliding around on bath mats".

It's amazing to me that you feel so free to accuse people of the most horrifically violent murder, and then equate them with a proven burglar, drug dealer, and mentally ill person like Rudy Guede who is the only person with solid evidence of his presence in the murder room at the time of the crime.

And when faced with that fact, you counter that its not relevant for a person to be in the room, at the time of the crime, in order to have committed the crime. Nencini says Amanda struck the fatal blow. Based on what? A deep sickness of the soul, that's what.
 
Well, no. In fact, something like 400 tests were done in the apartment. Seven samples were taken from the corridoor floor on Dec. 17. alone, another dozen were taken from the corridoor floor before that. Several samples were taken in the kitchen and from the floor in other rooms.
That there is no DNA from Sollecito on the floor is manifest.
From all those 400 tests we can infer that no large-size source of Sollecito's DNA was present in the apartment.


When we're the EDFs examined to look for contamination events on the scale of what was found on the bra clasp?
 
Well, no. In fact, something like 400 tests were done in the apartment. Seven samples were taken from the corridoor floor on Dec. 17. alone, another dozen were taken from the corridoor floor before that. Several samples were taken in the kitchen and from the floor in other rooms.
That there is no DNA from Sollecito on the floor is manifest.
From all those 400 tests we can infer that no large-size source of Sollecito's DNA was present in the apartment.
And we already know that no other sample from the apartment was contaminated from Sollecito's DNA.
We have a small object (the bra clasp) and no evidence of the existence of a source and of a contamination path, the factual circumstances that would make this alleged contamination from Sollecito's DNA become probable are missing. We have to consider the probability that such source existed and found its path as small odds, and even if there was a double touch with glove fingertip of an alleged source external to the room, first, and the bra clasp after, we would have small odd to obtain this transfer. We should consider the need of a combination of these small probabilities, two or three unlikely circumstances each itself not probable, and we would obtain a (very) improbable event.
If we considered the odds of that improbable event as 1:10 (but we know they are far less) still the evidence would be significant, there would be no denominator problem. Because - pay attention here - as I said we already know that the other samples are not contaminated from Sollecito's DNA. In terms explaining specificity, you need to explain why right that sample was contaminated and not others, why not the other twenty picked from the floor for example; you cannot use the sheer number as a shield in order to say "one can happen, just because they were many", you need to actually explain why that only one happened, and that one specifically. Because you can see how many samples taken that same day would have not as incriminating as that one. The floor in the kitchen may have little meaning. But Sollecito's DNA in Meredith's room? And on her bra? Why did it happen on that one?



First there are no other profiles found, they are alleles, not profiles. The same difference between finding an old tire rather than a functioning car. You can infer there was a car attached once, of course, but you don't have any. But this is not the problem why they are qualitatively different. They are different because they hae a different logical, as well as statistical value: the known datum is different, those are random, completely generic; while Sollecito's matches a suspect. It's a remarkable coincidence.
If you know the DNA comes from a paramedic or a forensic, which you may even know was there, then you can reasonably infer it was just contamination. But if it matches a suspect, and it is not supposed to be there, and it's there and only there on that incriminating object, it's a specific indication.

Mach, if I remember correctly, Knox and Sollecito spent some time in intimate embrace in her bedroom the afternoon of 1 Nov 2007. Are you telling me that none of Sollecito's DNA was found on and around the bed or in the bathroom where he might have washed up and used the toilet and towels? How could the scientific police miss that? (Maybe they did not check there as they did not want to disturb Knox's jacket - the one left by her on her bed which the police announced was missing, implying that it had been discarded after the murder - you know the one - the one in plain sight on her bed which the police overlooked for days.)
 
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Of course he's being honest. But that doesn't mean it is a product of intelligent thought. He says she is guilty because she is narcissistic and the reason he knows she is guilty is because she is narcissistic. Circular reasoning.
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Narcissism is such an overused pop psychology psycho-babble now a days, like self-esteem was in the last decade. It's funny really. One decade everyone needs more self-esteem (more narcissism), then in the next decade, everyone needs less narcissism (less self-esteem). Pop psychology is such a funny joke sometimes..

In reality, everyone is narcissistic to some degree, but of course, some are more than others. I don't believe though it's enough to hang a murder charge on as some people here seem to think,

d

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ETA: Some people seem to think that narcissist are also sociopaths. To some degree that's true, but one doesn't always necessarily follow the other.

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Do you know in which cases the ECHR has ruled that this sort of conviction is unfair? I thought the ECHR considered double jeopardy to occur only after someone has been "finally" acquitted.

Technically, you are absolutely correct. This situation is not called "double jeopardy" by the ECHR, but remains a violation of Convention Article 6 as an unfair trial, because the same evidence was used to convict as to acquit. That is unreasonable to the ECHR. The other concern that they raised about the fairness of such convictions after acquittal is that they may be based solely on reviews of the trial record, the witnesses and defendant not being called before the court, which may be a Supreme Court of Cassation. ECHR has stated that judges should directly evaluate evidence in finding guilt in a case where they are making a final ruling overturning a previous acquittal.

I've posted the cases here, I think in thread 12 or even 11. I will repost them after I find them again!

A post of mine, still from Thread 13:

Regarding double jeopardy and the ECHR, as Diocletus has pointed out the ECHR does not like to see convictions on appeal which follow acquittals where the same evidence is used for both trials.

I have earlier posted several ECHR cases where such convictions were judged unfair, a violation of Convention Article 6. In particular, in those cases the ECHR objected to the fact that the convicting court did not hear witnesses or the defendant, but merely did a review of the lower court's records, while of course the lower court had conducted a trial de novo. This describes the situation with the Nencini court provisional conviction and the Hellmann court acquittal.

From Post #3584 of Thread Continuation 11:

CASE OF MATYTSINA v. RUSSIA 58428/10 27/03/2014

Relevance: Conviction after acquittal; Evaluation & admissibility of expert evidence

There was a trial at first-level and the applicant was acquitted on 23 July 2007. In particular, the court concluded that the applicant and Ms M.S. (a co-defendant) had not realised that their activities might fall within the ambit of medical practice or that they could have been harmful to the health of others. The court also found that the programmes of the association did not amount to medical practice.

The court excluded from evidence the expert reports of the prosecution as incomplete, self-contradictory and unreliable.

The prosecution appealed.
On 20 December 2007 the acquittal was quashed by the Regional Court and the case was referred back to the trial court. The Regional Court disagreed with the assessment of evidence by the trial court, and with its decision to declare some evidence, namely, expert reports, inadmissible. The Regional Court also pointed to various procedural shortcomings in the trial proceedings.

In the new trial, the expert opinions of the prosecution were admitted and full value given to them. However, those of the defense were not admitted, for technical reasons relating to Judge M's interpretation of Russian law.

The applicant and her co-defendant were convicted in this retrial. The defence appealed. They complained, in particular, that judge M. had based the judgment on the testimony of witnesses he had not heard in person. They also complained about the refusal of the trial court to admit expert opinions submitted by the defence in evidence and obtain a new expert examination of the condition of Ms S.D. On 25 March 2010 the Regional Court sustained the conviction; it did not find any breach of the domestic substantive or procedural law in the proceedings before the trial court.

ECHR Judgment:

Judge M. contented himself with relying on the same written opinions by the prosecution’s experts which had earlier been rejected by another judge as inadmissible, unreliable and inconclusive, that is, without any meaningful verification of their credibility.

The Court is mindful of the fact that Judge M. heard a number of witnesses for the defence, examined several expert opinions and studied various documents. However, the question of whether or not the defence enjoyed “equality of arms” with the prosecution and whether the trial was “adversarial” cannot be addressed solely in quantitative terms. In the present case it was very difficult for the defence to effectively challenge the expert evidence submitted to the court by the prosecution. The Court stresses that the case against the applicant was built upon that expert evidence. In those circumstances, the way in which expert evidence was handled made the applicant’s trial unfair. Therefore, the Court does not need to address the other procedural violations alleged by the applicant.

On the strength of the above the Court concludes that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

From post #3148 of Continuation 11:

Yet another case, relevant because there were two acquittals followed by a final conviction, with no new evidence, and questions about the reasonings for the conviction:

CASE OF VETRENKO v. MOLDOVA 36552/02 18/05/2010

....Even though the extent to which the {domestic} courts should give reasons may vary depending on the particular circumstances of the case, a failure to deal with a serious argument or a manifestly arbitrary manner of doing so is incompatible with the notion of a fair trial.

.... in the absence of any new evidence mentioned in the courts' judgments, they convicted the applicant in the second round of proceedings, disregarding circumstances which had earlier led to his acquittal (see Salov, cited above, § 91). Therefore, the domestic courts did not give sufficient reasons for their judgments.

There has, accordingly, been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

From Continuation 11, post #2253


CASE OF HANU v. ROMANIA 10890/04 04/06/2013

It therefore appears that when they convicted the applicant neither the Court of Appeal nor the Supreme Court relied on any new evidence. Instead, they based their decisions on the evidence given by the applicant and the witnesses before the prosecutor and the County Court. However, the latter, after having heard the witnesses in person, had held that none of the evidence was conclusive proof as to the applicant’s guilt, and acquitted him (see paragraph 12 above). Even if the appellate courts could, in principle, have given their own interpretation of the evidence adduced before them, in the instant case the applicant was found guilty on the basis of witness testimony that had been found insufficient by the County Court and had justified his acquittal.

In these circumstances, the omission of the Court of Appeal to hear the witnesses in person, and the failure of the Supreme Court to redress the situation by referring the case back to the Court of Appeal for a fresh examination of the evidence, substantially reduced the applicant’s defence rights.

The foregoing considerations are sufficient to enable the Court to conclude that in the instant case, the domestic courts failed to comply in the applicant’s case with the requirements of a fair trial.

Since that requirement was not satisfied, the Court considers that there has been a violation of Article 6 § 1 of the Convention.

There are others, but hopefully this review of earlier posts provides some background.
 
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