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Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I find it interesting that the entity, which would have to request extradition of Ms Knox from the USA in the event of a confirmation, is the same entity which must answer questions about the violation of her human rights, at the ECHR.

But Italy has a choice when it comes to the former, yet is compelled, when it comes to the latter.

I don't believe it would find these activities particularly compatible with each other.

I picturing a moment in time when two memos arrive on someone's desk. The first one says that Knox's extradition should be requested. The second one says that Italy violated her human rights. That's a bad day.
 
Peter Gill lives in a strange world where one leaves a trail of his DNA as one proceed on one's routine, minute by minute.
DNA is left on exceptional moments, they are the exception.
DNA is not deposited on contact, it is torn away from oneself on shock-contacts at few moments of our lives.

More nonsense. This is the CSI effect. DNA is thought to be synonymous with crime. You think DNA is only transferred if people have a guilty conscience (actually a not unreasonable hypothesis - sweaty palms and all). But this is not true for instance see Meakin, G. and A. Jamieson (2013). "DNA transfer: review and implications for casework." Forensic Science International 7(4): 434-443. Where they comment sneezing and coughing transfers DNA. Again put up or shut up.
 
This may be exactly what this is about. Vogt has put the pdf of the statement when she returned home on her website.

"With the verdict of Oct. 3 overturning Amanda Knox's prior conviction, her immediate release from prison, and her subsequent departure from Italy today, Post considers this case closed.
THORNE

REVIEW AUTHORITY:

U.S. Department of State Case No.F-2012-20357 Doc No. C05147606 Date: 07/11/2011"

I suggest there is a strong case to say any subsequent events in Italy be deemed irrelevant. However it is reported elsewhere that her lawyers are working hard right now.

http://thefreelancedesk.com/amanda-knox-trials-meredith-kercher-case/

I don't think that memo. means much. Knox was freed and left the jurisdiction with which this desk was concerned. The wording seems unfortunate, but the basic idea is that this is out of the hands of the Rome embassy.
 
Is there any testimony on this point? I thought I saw it somewhere. Rudy borrowing pants form downstairs).

The person who said that Rudy changed his pants that night due to them being soaked with blood is the same person who testified that Rudy cut his hand in the course of the crime.

And, that person would be Rudy Guede.
 
I don't think that memo. means much. Knox was freed and left the jurisdiction with which this desk was concerned. The wording seems unfortunate, but the basic idea is that this is out of the hands of the Rome embassy.
Agreed, but you would expect it to be brandished at any hearing surely, and of course judges can make interpretations of law to suit their beliefs, especially on conscience matters. For example a hearing judge may have studied the convicting evidence, observed there is none, and when challenged to apply law by the letter, uses this state department document.
 
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What was the evidence samples being tested in march 5 & 7 of 2008?

What really matters is what was being tested the first time contamination is seen in the NTC controls. Answer: 165b.

Yep, that's right: the RT-qPCR run for the bra clasp has contaminated negative controls. In addition, something was screwed up with the machine set-up, causing it to return out-of-range results.

Bottom line: the quantification results for 165b are invalid. No one has any idea how much DNA was in that sample.
 
Agreed, but you would expect it to be brandished at any hearing surely, and of course judges can make interpretations of law to suit their beliefs, especially on conscience matters. For example a hearing judge may have studied the convicting evidence, observed there is none, and when challenged to apply law by the letter, uses this state department document.

That would be kind of interesting if it were brought before Cassation to inflame them with prejudice against Knox. But this makes me think of another question: would State have released that part of the cable if they thought that it might prejudice the process? And, if they didn't think that it could prejudice the process, then why not . . . because she won't be sent back?
 
I don't think Vogt knows what she's talking about. Who cares what personnel from Cassation are present, including but not limited to Mr. 9/11 Denier? All the court can do is send a note to (I think) the minister of justice saying "please extradite Amanda Knox". Then, they're done--I have to believe that they have no power or right to communicate with the US government.

I think you're right with regard to Ms Knox and Cassation has no rights in respect of communication with the US. But they have control of Mr Sollecito, it would seem. Everyone assumes though that if Cassation confirms, he will certainly be immediately arrested. I wonder if that is quite so certain.
 
There is now more than enough reporting that the USA will never give up one of their citizens to this insane, 7 1/2 process. A UK paper is reporting that "sources" within the US State Department already know what this is all about.

It leaves things just prior to Cassazione as per the Italian gentleman on Porta a Porta a while ago - why is it that the Americans can protect their citizens' rights, and we Italians cannot?

Porta Porta guy might want to start with a different question: why did we do this to our own citizen?
 
making the invisible visible, an article on low template DNA

Peter Gill lives in a strange world where one leaves a trail of his DNA as one proceed on one's routine, minute by minute.
DNA is left on exceptional moments, they are the exception.
DNA is not deposited on contact, it is torn away from oneself on shock-contacts at few moments of our lives.
The first comment you made on the subject of DNA was ignorant but perhaps understandable, but this one is extremely bewildering (it is also dead wrong). Here is a portion of a readable discussion of how difficult it is to perform low template work correctly (I have provided this link on many occasions). "We live in a "soup" of DNA, explains ESR forensic programme manager Keith Bedford. 'If I were to shed dandruff, massive amounts of dna could fall ... hair could carry DNA. The way I am speaking at the moment, we could probably detect DNA on this pad in front of me.'" Indeed it is possible to detect DNA about two meters away from the speaker.

Saliva is a good source of DNA, so one's bathroom wastebasket (with dental floss and tissue paper) and one's sink are places where one's DNA is likely to be found. Touch DNA comes from more than just epithelial cells; there is also cell-free DNA. A recent study by Goray and coworkers indicted that tertiary transfer occurs, and in the case of Profile A of that study, that does not account for how the DNA was first deposited. In other words they observed at least quaternary transfer.

The author of a respected textbook on DNA profiling, John Butler, said that no one has done more for DNA profiling in the last thirty years than Peter Gill has. As Bill_W might say, "Sheesh!"
 
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Certainly not privy to anything that's going on, but I just can't fathom that Italy will imprison Sollecito on the 26th or 27th while Knox is most likely unattainable in the U.S. Just makes no sense. But, then again, this is the Italian justice system . . .
 
That would be kind of interesting if it were brought before Cassation to inflame them with prejudice against Knox. But this makes me think of another question: would State have released that part of the cable if they thought that it might prejudice the process? And, if they didn't think that it could prejudice the process, then why not . . . because she won't be sent back?
They held back many documents but not that one...
This is way outside my ability to interpret, but someone like Strozzi might have an idea.
 
[/HILITE]

I think you're right with regard to Ms Knox and Cassation has no rights in respect of communication with the US. But they have control of Mr Sollecito, it would seem. Everyone assumes though that if Cassation confirms, he will certainly be immediately arrested. I wonder if that is quite so certain.

The least embarrassing think might be for Cassation to remand both Knox and Sollecito for separate trials. That would still be quite embarassing, though, but on the other other hand, they've put themselves in one hell of a pickle.
 
Peter Gill lives in a strange world where one leaves a trail of his DNA as one proceed on one's routine, minute by minute.
DNA is left on exceptional moments, they are the exception.
DNA is not deposited on contact, it is torn away from oneself on shock-contacts at few moments of our lives.

Gill lives in a world of actual subject matter expertise. He doesn't rely on phony axioms.
 
It occurs to me that if the Italians want to pursue extradition, State will be able to indefinitely delay and even shut down the process by asking a few simple questions:

Did you smack her? What did you do to find out if you did?

Where are the interrogation tapes?

Where are the EDFs? We want the FBI to have a look.

Why did you say "caso chiuso" before there was a trial?

Why weren't Matteini and other judges advised of the exculpatory DNA results?

Why did you decide the multiple attacker issue in some other guy's trial?

Don't you want the ECHR to finish it's work on this case first.

Etc.


Italy should be required to post a bond, too. I mean a real bond, not some worthless piece of Italian corporate paper.
 
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The problem is the denominator. If say 200 tests were done then 20 would be contaminated. So we are saying that for just one of those contaminated samples (5%) to be contaminated by Sollecito is beyond any possibility? The more tests you do the more likely you are to find contamination.

What about the other unknown DNA profiles found? Why are these qualitatively different? Why are these other profiles innocent contamination, but Sollecito's exclusively the result of transfer during an assault on MK?

all good questions...

and why did Stephony not present all her charts with RFU peaks of 10 or 20....you'd probably see 1000 points of contamination, if she had done all the charts the same way.
 
human dust and DNA

Actually this is a myth. Most of household dust is mineral dust from soil, and fibres from clothes / furnishings. Skin cells (and not necessarily human) is only a small part of dust. In addition shed human skin cells are a very poor source of DNA. Touch DNA is probably more related to sweat.
Planigale,

I agree with most of what you wrote, but I would hesitate to call dust a poor source. A 2008 study by Toothman et al. showed that there was enough DNA to generate called alleles. I briefly conversed with the senior author of this study in 2010 and found the interaction to helpful to my understanding of the subject.
 
Sometimes I wonder if it is not the depraved fantasies of those who write about him being projected on to what he actually says.

He didn't and hasn't take pleasure in any of the convictions if one reads and listens to what he says.
I think for PM Mignini this is personal. The following is a google translation from his closing arguments to judge Micheli
He makes it a "We against them", i.e. "Italy vs. the US" matter already then, he doesn't even forget to make it an "the rich against the poor" and an "inverted racist" issue. He defends "poor black Rudy" while accusing him (I think you have watched the bbc Vogt/Russel documentary by now):

Mr. preliminary hearing judge, the prosecutor must draw his own conclusions, at this hearing, in relation to a crime whose severity and brutality is well evidenced by the extraordinary interest that this tragic incident has aroused, we can say, in the whole world.

There was talk of "global crime," alluding to a story that has emotionally involved national and international public opinion, especially in the latter case, in the latter adjective (International), those of English-speaking countries in he belonged to the victim, the young Kercher Meredith Susanna Cara and belongs to the defendant Amanda Knox.

It is a court case that took place and continues to be, under the media spotlight over the world, with all the problems that this has involved.

The media exercising a fundamental and indispensable in a democratic order. I must say that, subject to certain exceptions, the same, both Italian and foreign, have played a task that must balance each other very well, and it is not easy, with the opposite and equally essential need for secrecy of investigation reports.

You can not ignore, however, that there were other interventions abnormal, harmful, often severely, individual rights and, unfortunately, numerous violations of the secret investigation, which caused some damage to the investigation because the violation of the precept of art. 326 Č.p. brings with it, as an element unfailing, a bias to the activity of investigation and often incalculable damage to those affected by pain that no judicial ruling will fill and the same suspects and defendants.

At the preliminary hearing, during the questioning of the witness Barrow but also that of Kokomani, there was a scandalous phenomenon, that of commercialization concerning pleadings and in particular questioning of persons informed about the facts: faced with offers of money to make interviews or to participate in television programs, there is one who has correctly refused to lend itself to advances so shameful and who has even solicited. But on the other hand, there has always been an attempt to move the "management" of the story of extraprocessuali channels, often in order to demolish the work of the investigators and the ascertainment of the truth of the facts.
They can not keep silent also instrumental attacks and unspeakable that were addressed to the investigators, especially the organs of the Judicial Police and the service of the Scientific Police of the Central Anti-Crime Police State, who took advantage of the bond's absolute discretion burden on the investigators themselves and the opposite, free opportunity for defenders and CC.TT. private parties and "defenders" of supporting them, to participate in all kinds of transmissions and make all the interviews and statements which they intended to make.
An attempt was made to arrive at a "cognizzazione", if you will pardon the neologism, the murder in Perugia, not to allude to the outcome of the judicial proceedings, but to the'' media trial "of the murder of the boy Samuel.

Often, some media outlet or some "expert" or "lover", national or not, he did not know one iota of procedural documents, ignoring casually, presumptuously and superficially (explosive mixture!), As has become custom, that investigations are performed by the prosecutors and the police and judicial rulings that must be complied with by now unchangeable dell'Autorittà judicial, talked, about the murder in Perugia, a "cold case" (I happened to hear it so often define television), like other crimes (such as, that of Garlasco), trying to bring "water" to the mill of some of the defendants at the expense of others.

I omit the abnormal actions of the parents and relatives of the two defendants, interventions that can also understand but who expressed complete ignorance of procedural rules and substantive and the performance of the same investigation.
However, certain sectors and not, often overseas, have not stopped to this .... the presumption is a widespread disease against which there is no cure, unfortunately, when it is associated with it, inevitable, superficiality.

No, they went further: they attacked in an unseemly, with absolute lack of arguments and impressive superficiality the judicial system of this state, the only one, I remember, having jurisdiction over this matter.
But it is not yet enough supported by some well-known crime writer, who is totally without legal culture species of foreign legal systems and terrorized by nonexistent expulsion or arrest on comparisons (which undoubtedly exist only in his fertile imagination of writer) and supporter
faith-based theories of investigative now definitively repudiated at the judicial level and slanderous for innocent, they tried to tie instrumentally this crime of Perugia heinous and cruel crime stories, as disturbing, polluted and sordid, happened not far from here and the ramifications of such local events . In particular, they are literally invented references to ill-defined "conspiracy theories" to explain the involvement of the judiciary Knox and Sollecito, next to (according to them) and only really in charge of the boy of color, as if these characters for the crimes they should commit always and only by individuals and there were no crimes committed by criminal associations (and I, of all people, those of "Cosa Nostra"), except in perspectives "conspiracy", which I have not yet figured out exactly what it means and what it alludes . 1 References to these "theories" I've read in a strange blog open to coincide with November 2 07. This happens when one attempts to approach the varied criminal reality of our time with the lens distorting the preconceived notions on which to indent to force reality, a priori "conspiracy" or a priori "anticospirazionisti" does not matter.

Obviously, the minds of this operation are, however, in Italy, not in the United States.

They said, mostly from 9,000 cliilometri away, less frequently from 5000, perhaps even without knowing a word of the pleadings nor the complexity of the Italian legal language: we have it all figured out. From here, we have it all figured out: there is only one person in charge, the black guy, the others have nothing to do. We'll tell you.
I am still shocked and appalled by this attitude. This is the first time I came across it and I do not think I will find myself again in front of such presumption and superficiality.

A minimum of experience, prudence, caution should prevent similar summaries, cast by 5000, but more often even from 9,000 miles away.

And all this without spending a single word about the fact that the custodial orders have been confirmed in all their assumptions by the Court of Review and the First Criminal Chamber of the Supreme Court!
Overflight of other, more serious, incredible and repeated episodes of interference. I will just say that would be inconceivable in Italy and we are certainly not a perfect country.

We Italians, like all peoples of this world, some more than others, we have our flaws. And one of they, in my opinion, the greatest and the most limiting, is the xenophilia and self-pity, very serious limitation: the idea that others do better and that the systems are better and the other must necessarily be imitated. The reality and the experience of this story justice - media should suggest rather more realistic and discernment.

Indeed, I believe that good and bad are widely distributed among all the peoples of this world and that everyone should adopt the systems, especially courts, in conformity with its own identity and its own history, without necessarily imitating others.

No one in Italy, one would have dared to vilify and attack with such impudence and shamelessness to investigators, for example, U.S.. With us there is sport, now more and more in vogue, to attack wherever and however the Italian magistrates, especially the Public Prosecutor, but no journalist, for example, Italian, no operator in the Italian legal system would think to defame and slander an American prosecutor who is investigating an accused Italian. No one and rightly so. To these, yes! And not only the prosecutor but also the GIP, even the Court of Review and the judges of the Supreme Court who have shared in full all the conditions of custody orders!

And today, on these ordinances and judgments, has dropped the tombstone (for the defendants) of the definitive and incontestable.

You can share or not, but no one in Italy and elsewhere can afford to say that the two defendants against Knox and Sollecito (which are those for which one beats the drum media) there is evidence to justify pre-trial detention and that ' only one who deserves prison is the "bad guy", the black guy who does not enjoy obviously many sponsors at the international level.
He searches for the fight ... the provocation, hoping that it could reach something positive for the Knox and Sollecito and why you could download all the colored boy whose defense has the merit of an absolute professional integrity.

We have tried to get rid of, through slander, by these worthy disciples of Don Basilio, not only men and women of the squad that played their role very well, we tried even to get rid of this but especially in other legal proceedings, the
Public Ministry, but no one delude himself: no one has abandoned and never leave his place. Be very clear to everyone, in Perugia and elsewhere.

Yet, despite the difficulty, almost impossible to work with serenity and tranquility, despite all the obstacles and disturbances, despite the loose cannons of this and other legal proceedings that we wanted to tie in the first, it took only eight months to conclude the investigation, send alerts pursuant to Art. 415 bis of the Code of Criminal Procedure and request the trial of the three defendants and precautionary measures, as has been said, but it must be repeated, were all on time and strictly upheld by the Court of Review and the Supreme Court, which, too often, detractors, Italian and not, investigation, have concealed and casually passed over in silence.
Essentially he says in his opening: "Send her to trial, because the American press criticized me and criticizing me is criticizing Italy as a whole."

I wonder how you think about his appeal against Massei's verdict? It was the first to be filed despite comments on Dec 6/7th 2009 that they won't appeal. Interestingly his main argument to deny mitigating circumstances to Knox is that it doesn't matter that you don't have a criminal record when you are only 20, and that is especially void when a Mail online article says that you have a criminal record: Mignini Comodi appeal (Google aided translation) and The "evidence": The wild raunchy past of Foxy Knoxy. Vendetta is an Italian word, indeed...
 
samples from Raffaele's car and apartment

You may well be right. Sollecitos DNA wasn't found in his car and only in a few samples from his appartment.

Greetings
Wannaknow,

There were a number of samples from Sollecito's car which showed a nonzero level of DNA from Sollecito's car. Stefanoni did not produce electropherograms for them, at least not that have been made public. However, I seem to recall a few mixed DNA samples at Sollecito's apartment, plus a few luminol-positive areas. Who murdered whom at his apartment? That is what I want to know.

How many samples of Sollecito's DNA is a function of what was and was not sampled. It is also a function of what samples were taken only partway through the process of making an electropherogram. The idea that the only DNA that Sollecito deposited in the women's flat (besides the disputed clasp) was on a cigarette that was tested, was one of the prosecution's many attempts at forensic misdirection. Unless the FP tested every square inch of the flat, this is an obvious fallacy. Sollecito's shoes probably had his DNA, and his fingerprints were known to be on the outside of Meredith's door. He also prepared food at their flat, putting his DNA on utensils and perhaps towels used to wash his hands.
 
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Kauffer - I think all Massei was trying to determine - which he determined wrongly - was if Stefanoni followed a "suspect-centric" analysis, as the defence expert claimed she had.

Massei at least has the cojones to deal with the issue. But when you read the sections where he tries to deal with it, his own "analysis" of it gets lost. Massei is the source of what the ISC in 2013 eventually said about all this - that regardless of protocols....

..... the technician still needs to rely on their experience and intuition. However, in this case, that "experience and intuition" found no need for things like a second confirmatory test, despite protocol. Massei's point of view is, if Stefanoni (the expert) says this is all right, then it is all right. If someone else says it is not all right; even appointing an independent third party to see who's right will only side with one or the other, and Massei says this leaves him no better off than when he started.

This, by itself, confirms Stefanoni's suspect-centric method, at least how Massei deals with it. She's basically saying that there's no need to run a confirmatory test, because: "What? You want me to find Raffaele on the bra-clasp again?"

Well, yes, that's what confirmatory tests are all about!!! And Massei eventually lets Stefanoni off the hook, with his own brand of, "the technician is not the one on trial here."

Whether or not this is "doctoring the results", is not something Massei deals with, really: except to say he can't imagine why someone connected with the police would do that.

Well, perhaps Tagliabracci was either pulling his punches out of professional courtesy or because he was worried about being sued, but it seems to me that scientists are supposed to present the evidence and not bugger about with it to suit their agenda or someone else's agenda. So, sure, Stefanoni's approach was 'suspect centred', but by ignoring alleles, reporting them as noise, what was she doing if not doctoring the results? In this instance, 'suspect centred' should be read as a euphemism for fraud - in my opinion.
 
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