Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

You mentioned sexual jealousy, but when challenged, the reference disappears.
What sobbing?. Ms Kercher had made plans for Halloween, that's all. No problem. That Ms Knox was not part of Ms Kercher's friends' circle is not evidence she had a bad relationship with Ms Kercher.

I asked you to explain the evidence I cited of what was in fact a warm and friendly relationship between Ms Knox and Ms Kercher. You ignored that.

This is what Judge Massei heard a the 2009 trial from Giacomo Silenzi:

(Giacomo Silenzi) related that had been in Perugia since 2006 and that he had
always lived in Via della Pergola on the lower floor. He was living in this apartment
with Stefano Bonassi, Marco Marzan and Riccardo Luciani. He knew that four girls -
Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox, Laura Mezzetti and Filomena Romanelli - had
been living upstairs since September 2007.
He had had a romantic relationship with Meredith, which had begun a couple of
weeks before she was killed.
There were no particular problems between the girls; the only complaint had been
about cleaning the house.
The relationship between Amanda and Meredith was normal and friendly. ​

 

[Machiavelli]

(...)

What trial testimony, specifically, do you rely on? Which of the English girls said Ms Knox was 'not clean'?

Specifically, Sophie Purton stated on Nov. 08. 2007 that there were "many things of Amanda that Meredith didn't like", and in Feb 2009 she stated that Meredith felt annoyed by some things, one topic she remembers well is of Amanda's bathroom habits.
Amy Frost on Nov. 08. pointed out that Meredith was annoyed by the fact that she had found toilet paper dirty with menstrual blood and had to tell her to be more careful because she really couldn't stand that, and mentioned again the habit of not flushing the toilet.
Robyn Butterworth on Nov. 08. declared that Meredith and Amanda had a discussion because the latter had the habit of not flushing the toilet not even when she had her period. Therefore Robyn said she was stunned when she heard Knox commenting repeatedly about "****" in the toilet at the police station.

I note that part of testimonies from multiple witnesses, the one closest to Meredith and Amanda, revolves around a concept of dirt and poor hygiene.

 

[Machiavelli]

So you are basically suggesting that Meredith was a Mean Girl You really don't care how much you insult the memory of MK, if you can sling any mud at AK

You definitely have an odd idea of women, if you think a bit of low level high school bitching is going to make a woman murderous

I also don't think women would normally get a judicial fine whenever they give farwell parties and that thosw would normally end in rock throwing, or that women would normally stage rape pranks on April 1. that end in terrorizing their roommates.

And I don't think that "bitching" would make a woman become murderous. Normally.
Even if, by the way, but this is a rathr important point, I don't think it was just a 'low level' nor a 'high-school' bitching (I think it was more rather adult sexual jealousy, and adult personality disorder).
And also, I think that a black petty thief does not turn automatically into a murderous necrophyliac rapist too (something that you may well be prone to believe as if it was something natural).

What I think is, that the specifi situation made Amanda Knox become murderous. Not 'women', not 'a woman' in general, but one specific individual, with her peculiar psychological story.

Unfortunately the records of murderers is full of individuals - including women - who became murderers because of what appear most stupid sexual or sentimental humiliations, in fear of shame or narcissistic rage, because of their inability to manage aspects their fragile personalities and their low self-esteem. Sabrina Misseri killing Sarah Scazzi may be a very easy example close to the knowledge of these forum posters.
Murderes do kill for reasons - or bettter for causes - that appear like petty, bitchy and stupid. This fragility and disproportion is in fact what distinguishes "women" and "men" from "murderers".

 

[Bill Williams]

Specifically, Sophie Purton stated on Nov. 08. 2007 that there were "many things of Amanda that Meredith didn't like", and in Feb 2009 she stated that Meredith felt annoyed by some things, one topic she remembers well is of Amanda's bathroom habits.
Amy Frost on Nov. 08. pointed out that Meredith was annoyed by the fact that she had found toilet paper dirty with menstrual blood and had to tell her to be more careful because she really couldn't stand that, and mentioned again the habit of not flushing the toilet.
Robyn Butterworth on Nov. 08. declared that Meredith and Amanda had a discussion because the latter had the habit of not flushing the toilet not even when she had her period. Therefore Robyn said she was stunned when she heard Knox commenting repeatedly about "****" in the toilet at the police station.

I note that part of testimonies from multiple witnesses, the one closest to Meredith and Amanda, revolves around a concept of dirt and poor hygiene.

Is this your psychological analysis which concludes that the murder was a revenge-sex killing?

 

[Bill Williams]

I also don't think women would normally get a judicial fine whenever they give farwell parties and that thosw would normally end in rock throwing, or that women would normally stage rape pranks on April 1. that end in terrorizing their roommates.

"Women" get parking tickets all the time, which was the equivalent of the noise violation. The April Fools prank was not a "rape prank". Where you get your fantasies is beyond me.

 

[Machiavelli]

And it illustrates a far wider opinion of women in general. There is no evidence to suggest that Amanda was anything but a normal student - and yet you turn her normal behaviour into evidence of being a witch/bitch/slut

Let's not be silly. The problem is precisely that Amanda Knox was not exactly normal. And this not because of her sexual habits, but because of her personality, her narcissistic self.
You realy decide that you want to misunderstand things. She was not a witch, nor a bitch nor a slut. She was just an unfortunate sick individual, a person suffering from a health condition.

 

[toto]

Specifically, Sophie Purton stated on Nov. 08. 2007 that there were "many things of Amanda that Meredith didn't like", and in Feb 2009 she stated that Meredith felt annoyed by some things, one topic she remembers well is of Amanda's bathroom habits.
Amy Frost on Nov. 08. pointed out that Meredith was annoyed by the fact that she had found toilet paper dirty with menstrual blood and had to tell her to be more careful because she really couldn't stand that, and mentioned again the habit of not flushing the toilet.
Robyn Butterworth on Nov. 08. declared that Meredith and Amanda had a discussion because the latter had the habit of not flushing the toilet not even when she had her period. Therefore Robyn said she was stunned when she heard Knox commenting repeatedly about "****" in the toilet at the police station.

I note that part of testimonies from multiple witnesses, the one closest to Meredith and Amanda, revolves around a concept of dirt and poor hygiene.

According to John Follain, all three thought Amanda Knox was guilty and Sophie in particular "felt the police were trying to convince all the girls that Amanda and Rafaelle were guilty" (p273 A Death in Italy).

 

[Desert Fox]

Let's not be silly. The problem is precisely that Amanda Knox was not exactly normal. And this not because of her sexual habits, but because of her personality, her narcissistic self.
You realy decide that you want to misunderstand things. She was not a witch, nor a bitch nor a slut. She was just an unfortunate sick individual, a person suffering from a health condition.

Interestingly, the people of Seattle she knows personally do not consider her narcissistic?

I do find it interesting how defendants are always called that however by those who want to demonize them.

 

[Machiavelli]

"Women" get parking tickets all the time, which was the equivalent of the noise violation. The April Fools prank was not a "rape prank". Where you get your fantasies is beyond me.

No, let's not be hypocritical beyond grotesque, it's not the equivalent. And it's not "noise", we know rock throwing across the road is not just a matter of noise.
And by the way it's not just a ticket, there's also a police report, which included the note of a verbal warning given by the officer to Amanda Knox besides the fine.
And also we have the officer's description of the event, some details are different from parking in the wrong place.

 

[acbytesla]

I agree quite with cristianahannah, and definitely disagree with NancyS' rhetoric, but while I agree with cristianahannah I, also go beyond. My personal belief (and by my understanding, that of Mignini too) is not just that Meredith felt unconfortable about specific behaviours of Amanda Knox, but that she rather disliked or disregarded her as a person, she didn't wish to spend much time in her company, and Amanda Knox felt utterly hurt by Meredith and her British friends cutting her off their circle.
In return to this, or together with this, Amanda also had feelings of sexual jealousy about Meredith and negative feelings against her.

It's obvious that this scenario stems from also an overall consideration of Knox's personality, and the observation that she was not exactly a "normal" girl; I think there are indipendent indicators that she had some psychological issues and a problematic self. The point is not about her sexual habits or personal morals, which have no interest, the problematic element is her psychology. Neither me, nor Mignini or the judge or Meredith had a problem with her sexual or sentimental life, it was Amanda who had a problem with her sexual life and habits. This was a main causal element of the crime, in my opinion (and by my understanding, in Mignini's).

This is of course nonsense based on nothing, Not even MasseI believed this crap. Meredith spent entire days with Knox only a few days before the murder and ended many of the texts she sent to Amanda with kisses. None of the roommates noted any problems between the 2. But why shouldn't you agree with Mignini and make it up out of thin air. And from what I can tell Amanda is very normal.

 

[Machiavelli]

Is this your psychological analysis which concludes that the murder was a revenge-sex killing?

I don't think it was a "revenge killing". Neither did Mignini.
I think Mignini thought it was a revenge sexual assault, which followed an argument that degenerated with some help from drugs, and was followed by a killing after it went out of control.

 

[Desert Fox]

No, let's not be hypocritical beyond grotesque, it's not the equivalent. And it's not "noise", we know rock throwing across the road is not just a matter of noise.
And by the way it's not just a ticket, there's also a police report, which included the note of a verbal warning given by the officer to Amanda Knox besides the fine.
And also we have the officer's description of the event, some details are different from parking in the wrong place.

I read the actual ticket and it is a nothing ticket. . . . .Trying to make something of it just makes you look silly.

 

[Machiavelli]

This is of course nonsense based on nothing, Not even MasseI believed this crap. Meredith spent entire days with Knox only a few days before the murder and ended many of the texts she sent to Amanda with kisses. None of the roommates noted any problems between the 2. But why shouldn't you agree with Mignini and make it up out of thin air. And from what I can tell Amanda is very normal.

Let's not forget that prior to any of those conclusions, I will start any reasoning from the presumption that there is certain proof beyond reasonable doubt that Knox is guilt, independently from any thought about motive and scenario.
To motive and psychological analysis are explanations to me, not evidence.

 

[Bill Williams]

I don't think it was a "revenge killing". Neither did Mignini.
I think Mignini thought it was a revenge sexual assault, which followed an argument that degenerated with some help from drugs, and was followed by a killing after it went out of control.

You are engaging in speculative psychologizing. Your summary of Mignini's closing is pure, evidenceless lunacy. It's difficult to believe you'd actually print stuff like that.

Like I said upthread.... what evidence did Mignini ever have (let's start with just a couple):

1) Knox had a psychological profile of a "humiliated/wounded self"?
6) Raffaele used "extensive" drugs, as opposed to Rudy simply only using drugs?
8) Knox regarded Meredith as "prissy"?
9) That Knox had an ability to manipulate Guede and/or Sollecito, particularly since there is no record of Knox ever, in any meaningful sense, communicating with Guede?
10) Guede and Sollecito were competing for Amanda's attention?​

This is all Mignini's fantasy, built on his "may haves". It looks to be your fantasy as well. There is NO evidence at all to support those 5 things. Massei, for instance, heard what Mignini said about these sexual fantasies in court, and rejected it all.

Can you imagine sitting there in court listening to yourself described this way, knowing that your fate is in the hands of a madman?

 

[Bill Williams]

Let's not forget that prior to any of those conclusions, I will start any reasoning from the presumption that there is certain proof beyond reasonable doubt that Knox is guilt, independently from any thought about motive and scenario.
To motive and psychological analysis are explanations to me, not evidence.

..... and you seem to have no qualms, then, to just invent things - like that Knox thought Meredith was "prissy". Where do you dream up this stuff?

 

[toto]

Let's not forget that prior to any of those conclusions, I will start any reasoning from the presumption that there is certain proof beyond reasonable doubt that Knox is guilt, independently from any thought about motive and scenario.
To motive and psychological analysis are explanations to me, not evidence.

Personally, if you take away Amanda's scatty, possibly insensitive behaviour, I don't think there is anything else, certainly no evidence in the room where Meredith was found (but evidence of course of Guede).

 

[acbytesla]

Let's not be silly. The problem is precisely that Amanda Knox was not exactly normal. And this not because of her sexual habits, but because of her personality, her narcissistic self.
You realy decide that you want to misunderstand things. She was not a witch, nor a bitch nor a slut. She was just an unfortunate sick individual, a person suffering from a health condition.

I have to wonder what you think is normal. I also wonder why you think Knox is narcissistic. Yout have never met her.From my perspective 5th at is the pinnacle of hipocracy. The simple fact is that you are clueless when it comes to discussing Knox's personality. So am I, but at least I know it.

 

[Machiavelli]

I read the actual ticket and it is a nothing ticket. . . . .Trying to make something of it just makes you look silly.

"Nothing" is an important absolute quantificator, not always suitable.

Is this the ticket?

In the city of Seattle

I was on uniformed patrol in the marked unit as 3U5. At approximately 0028 hours, I responded to the report of a loud party in the listed location. The complainant relayed to dispatch that participants from the party were throwing rocks at his house and at passing cars. The complainant requested officer not contact him. Upon arrival, I noted loud amplified music coming from the listed address. The music could be heard from a distance greater than 75 ft from the source. I also noted several rocks in the street. I did not locate any damage at that time. I contacted a party participant and had them retrieve a resident.

S1/Knox contacted me (in front of the house). She stated that she was one of the current residents. She stated that she was the one who was hosting the party (as she was moving out). She stated that she was not aware of any rock throwers at the gathering.

I issued S1/Knox this infraction for the noise violation and a warning for the rock throwing. I explained how dangerous and juvenile that action was.

See Cad event 264012 for further.

No further action taken at this time.

I think a witness described the inside as:

"bedlam, with drink, drugs and bodies everywhere".

"Some people were naked inside the bedrooms".

"There were people draped over each other".

"I've been to a lot of student parties in my time, but I've never been to a party like that".

"Everyone just wanted to get drunk, get high and get laid. There was also a lot of violence because everyone was so pumped up."

I think officer Bender described the surrounging area "like a scene from Baghdad"

It is also reported that there was a court hearing for the fine and thus and a court record in which the thing I find most interesting is reported, that is:

Officer Bender reported that the excuse that Knox presented for her behaviour was that "she was moving abroad".

I find this link between the disturbance caused by a wild party and her moving abroad quite surprising, to me this link is actually the most revealing element.

 

[Diocletus]

"Nothing" is an important absolute quantificator, not always suitable.

Is this the ticket?



I think a witness described the inside as:

"bedlam, with drink, drugs and bodies everywhere".

"Some people were naked inside the bedrooms".

"There were people draped over each other".

"I've been to a lot of student parties in my time, but I've never been to a party like that".

"Everyone just wanted to get drunk, get high and get laid. There was also a lot of violence because everyone was so pumped up."

I think officer Bender described the surrounging area "like a scene from Baghdad"

It is also reported that there was a court hearing for the fine and thus and a court record in which the thing I find most interesting is reported, that is:

Officer Bender reported that the excuse that Knox presented for her behaviour was that "she was moving abroad".

I find this link between the disturbance caused by a wild party and her moving abroad quite surprising, to me this link is actually the most revealing element.




Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-498853/The-wild-raunchy-past-Foxy-Knoxy.html#ixzz3V4nSuJjX
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

You and your Italian pals aren't in a good position to judge what is a wild party. Sounds to me like every Friday night in college.

 

[acbytesla]

Let's not forget that prior to any of those conclusions, I will start any reasoning from the presumption that there is certain proof beyond reasonable doubt that Knox is guilt, independently from any thought about motive and scenario.
To motive and psychological analysis are explanations to me, not evidence.

Total bizarre circular reasoning. It takes a moron of major proportions to believe that based on the evidence presented that there is certain proof beyond a reasonable doubt . You're not a moron are you ?