Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[christianahannah]

From what we know about Meredith, she is usually too hung over and sleeping till noon to be aware of the morning events. But the girls all talked about this since Amanda laughed when she saw how small the boy was.

The pizza event was in Filomena's testimony. Meredith came home but declined the pizza as she was headed out to join her friends. The landlord complained the the food was still in the oven years later when the cottage was finally returned.

I don't think it was Meredith who was hung over (at least as far as testimony is concerned). Wasn't it Sophie who was hung over (or maybe one of the other friends) and Meredith asked someone (maybe Spyros, not sure) for help getting her home?

A second pizza. I'll have to check Filomena's testimony. I missed over that entirely.

 

[Dan O.]

Second?! There are pizzas glomming out of the woodwork in this saga. Meredith had pizza with her english friends the night she was murdered. I just recently posted about Raffaele trying to order two pizzas while they were trapped at the police station the first night. They couldn't deliver till after 19:30 and Raffaele thought they would all be home by then. The Day Amanda was taken to the cottage to view the knives, Raffaele had interviewed to ask her what kind of pizza she would like. The claimed receipts for bleach found at Raffaele's appartment clearly say "pizza". Amanda saying that she could kill for a pizza...

The list goes on and on. Whe should have a contest to find the last known pizza referrence in this case.

 

[Samson]

Really good to see you here ericparoissien, I have followed your video series with fascination, including the one on Cosima Misseri, but regrettably, no one seems interested.

Ad hominem as soon as new blood arrives, Whack 'em All, wolf-pack, 75-IQ strategy:
- no accepted on most forums
- you have no argument on the issue offered

Now I see the issue. I did mean no one appears currently interested in the Sarah Scazzi case because there is a thread on this sub forum that is not added to. I watched your subtitled videos with great interest, and hope you offer some opinions on the case on the thread. There are many interesting parallels with the Meredith Kercher case.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227016

 

[acbytesla]

It was evidence that Amanda herself gave. Amanda was trying to help the police in thinking of guys (primarily) who might have had contact with Meredith or the cottage. And this was probably as a result of Sophie Purton's statement about strange fellows.

I don't think this was an example of slut-shaming. How do you see it as that?

So? This is information totally irrelevant to the guilt or innocence of Knox, so why is it brought up during the discussion so often? The reason is simple and that is to cast Amanda as a woman who sleeps around. It really is slut shaming through innuendo.

 

[Samson]

No, not addicted to Mignini but maybe addicted to the truth.

Mignini is reported as making at least one true statement. He said if the break in was real, the two are innocent. Ron Hendry went on to prove the break in was real with a very detailed account with photographs from the afternoon the body was discovered.
Therefore your addiction to the truth may be sated with that. I would be most interested to know where you find fault with Hendry's analysis.

 

[Desert Fox]

I may have just found a crime something like what Amanda and Raffaele are being accused of. I had heard about it but had forgotten about the case.

Erika and Benjamin Sifrit

They had been married for four years however and he was a former navy seal and they tend to be thrill seekers

 

[Welshman]

In a crime like this, one's sex life will be brought up... whether it's Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, or Amanda Marie Knox.

Re: Pacelli: nothing odd there either.

He posed the "Luciferina" description to the court as a question.

"Luciferina" or "the girl-next-door". And prefaced his opinion with "In my judgement".

Nothing odd about that and nothing that you won't find in a court anywhere else.

"Dunque chi è Amanda Knox? È quella mite, dolce, dal volto acqua e sapone che vedete qui oggi, dinanzi a voi? Oppure è quella che vi ho descritto in base al ritratto testimoniale fatto testé? Amanda è l'una e l'altra, in lei convive a mio giudizio una doppia anima, quella angelica, compassionevole, da Santa Maria Goretti, tenera e ingenua e quella luciferina, satanica, diabolica che la porta a vivere condotte di tipo borderline, estreme e ad adottare comportamenti dissoluti ed era quest'ultima l'Amanda del primo novembre 2007."

What Pacelli did was basically resort to character assassination which is what prosecutors often resort to when they have no don't have any actual evidence to support their case.

 

[Welshman]

Out of many problems with Machiavelli's own summary of Mignini's speech about the psychosexual maladies he sees in Amanda Knox.....

.... are the highlighted bits.

Like everything on the PM/Judge side of things, they get to speculate; something "may have happened", something "may be true" even if there was nothing entered at trial.

Yet the burden on the defence!? As per contamination - it is not required that a DNA lab show it has competence or even follows protocol, other than asking the technician herself.... but the defence has to prove a route of contamination!

However, getting back to the specifics of Machiavelli's excellent summary of Mignini's sexual fantasies about this case, where is the evidence that:

1) Knox had a psychological profile of a "humiliated/wounded self"?
2) Meredith was cutting Knox out of the circle of friendship? (Where is there any evidence that Meredith was this catty?)
3) Meredith was disturbed by some of Knox's sexual behaviours? (For heaven's sake, they borrowed condoms from each other.)
4) Amanda was offended by Meredith's (imagined) attitude? (Note how Mignini buttresses one fantasy with another!)
5) There was ANY element of sexual revenge, or even simple revenge in this killing? (Massei is plain in saying the trigger for the killing was Rudy's lust.)
6) Raffaele used "extensive" drugs, as opposed to Rudy simply only using drugs?
7) Sexual violence, other than Rudy's lust, was the trigger for this murder?
8) Knox regarded Meredith as "prissy"?
9) That Knox had an ability to manipulate Guede and/or Sollecito, particularly since there is no record of Knox ever, in any meaningful sense, communicating with Guede?
10) Guede and Sollicto were competing for Amanda's attention?​

This is all Mignini's fantasy, built on his "may haves". Can you imagine sitting their in court listening to yourself described this way, knowing that your fate is in the hands of a madman, and that because he is a PM, the court will listen to him, just because?

Bill is quite right in saying there is no evidence to support any of Mignini's claim. If there was solid evidence and a slam dunk case against Amanda and Raffaele, why is that Machiavelli and Mignini have to resort to making claims for which there is no evidence to support?

 

[Chris_Halkides]

misogyny

What Pacelli did was basically resort to character assassination which is what prosecutors often resort to when they have no don't have any actual evidence to support their case.

Welshman,

Agreed. That is what DA Nifong did in the Duke lacrosse case. I agree with the commenters who are appalled by the misogyny that has been allowed to drive the present case, especially by Lumumba's lawyer Pacelli.

 

[Numbers]

Looking ahead...
CPP Article 629 Convictions subject to revision
1. The revision of judgments of conviction...or of final criminal decrees of convicton may be performed at any time and in the cases established by law in favor of the convicted persons, even if the sentence has already been enforced or is extinguished.

CPP Article 630 Cases of revision
1. Revision may be requested:
....
c) if new evidence is found or discovered after conviction and, either independently or or jointly with already assessed evidence, proves that the convicted person must be dismissed under Art. 631;
d) if it is proven that the judgment of conviction has been delivered as a consequence of false documents or statements provided during the trial or any other criminal act deemed an offence by law.. (Note 1)
Note 1. Constitutional Court judgment No 113/2011 has added the possibility to request revision when it is necessary to reopen the proceedings in order to comply with a final judgment of the ECHR.

 

[acbytesla]

I may have just found a crime something like what Amanda and Raffaele are being accused of. I had heard about it but had forgotten about the case.

Erika and Benjamin Sifrit

They had been married for four years however and he was a former navy seal and they tend to be thrill seekers

Oh yeah, that is a similar profile Every so called similar crime turns out to be light years in difference. I spent a good deal of time trying to find muderers of a similar profile to Knox and Sollecito and can never come up with anything remotely close. Neither had ever committed any kind of crime unless you think having a loud party as a crime. The fact that they barely knew each other is also significant. I'm convinced you have to have more than a few screws loose to believe in their guilt. Also the fact that the evidence implicating them is so minuscule.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Russell Gesah and possible DNA contamination routes

I commented here on the Russell Gesah DNA contamination case not that long ago. In rereading this link, i infer that the people who are discussing the case acknowledge that clothing from the Tapp case was examined on the same day as something from Gesah. If the contamination occurred because one person examined two items of clothing without changing gloves, then this would be tertiary transfer. However, the exact route is appears to be unknown:

"DEPUTY COMMISSIONER SIMON OVERLAND, VICTORIA POLICE: Victoria police has today withdrawn the murder charges against Russell John Gesah due to doubt as to the reliability of the DNA evidence in this case. It appears contamination of biological material occurred in 1999 when clothing from an unrelated offence had been examined and found to contain DNA matching Russell John Gesah. Some of the clothing from the Tapp murder case was then examined on the same day.
SNIP
ASSOC. PROFESSOR JEREMY GANS: In this case, the contamination happens because two pieces of clothing were in the same room on the same day. We don't know whether they came into contact with each other, or whether there was transference via a desk or a person or through the air. But what we really don't know is how many contaminations could happen in even broader circumstances."

Only in Italy is the defense supposed to say exactly how the contamination occurred and to do so without full documentation from the FP.

 

[christianahannah]

So? This is information totally irrelevant to the guilt or innocence of Knox, so why is it brought up during the discussion so often? The reason is simple and that is to cast Amanda as a woman who sleeps around. It really is slut shaming through innuendo.

I don't think it has been brought up in the discussion so often. As far as having names in one's cell or knowing guys and bringing them to the apartment I don't think (even by innuendo) there is a sexual component to that but evidentially some who post here do.

 

[christianahannah]

Second?! There are pizzas glomming out of the woodwork in this saga. Meredith had pizza with her english friends the night she was murdered. I just recently posted about Raffaele trying to order two pizzas while they were trapped at the police station the first night. They couldn't deliver till after 19:30 and Raffaele thought they would all be home by then. The Day Amanda was taken to the cottage to view the knives, Raffaele had interviewed to ask her what kind of pizza she would like. The claimed receipts for bleach found at Raffaele's appartment clearly say "pizza". Amanda saying that she could kill for a pizza...

The list goes on and on. Whe should have a contest to find the last known pizza referrence in this case.

Well I mean second where Meredith may be concerned. Was it testified to that the pizza had remained in the oven from a few nights prior?

 

[Desert Fox]

Oh yeah, that is a similar profile Every so called similar crime turns out to be light years in difference. I spent a good deal of time trying to find muderers of a similar profile to Knox and Sollecito and can never come up with anything remotely close. Neither had ever committed any kind of crime unless you think having a loud party as a crime. The fact that they barely knew each other is also significant. I'm convinced you have to have more than a few screws loose to believe in their guilt. Also the fact that the evidence implicating them is so minuscule.

I am also digging for the strangest of strange cases. . . . .This case is not really a strange case where Rudy Guede committed the crime. They are not common but they are also not that abnormal as such crimes are considered.

 

[Kauffer]

Looking ahead...
CPP Article 629 Convictions subject to revision
1. The revision of judgments of conviction...or of final criminal decrees of convicton may be performed at any time and in the cases established by law in favor of the convicted persons, even if the sentence has already been enforced or is extinguished.

CPP Article 630 Cases of revision
1. Revision may be requested:
....
c) if new evidence is found or discovered after conviction and, either independently or or jointly with already assessed evidence, proves that the convicted person must be dismissed under Art. 631;
d) if it is proven that the judgment of conviction has been delivered as a consequence of false documents or statements provided during the trial or any other criminal act deemed an offence by law.. (Note 1)
Note 1. Constitutional Court judgment No 113/2011 has added the possibility to request revision when it is necessary to reopen the proceedings in order to comply with a final judgment of the ECHR.

What Numbers has posted here is really really important. This rather strange modification of art. 630 is known as an "additive" decision. What the Constitutional Court has done is to assume the position of legislator - effectively rewriting the law in the absence of legislative action in order to make it compliant with article 46 of the European Convention, which itself is a 'bridge' to article 117 of the Italian constitution. It happened as a result of the Dorigo v Italy case.

It is one existing, possible mechanism that will be available as a means of solving the problem of providing restitutio in integrum in the calunnia case - restoring Ms Knox's position - when the ECHR rules that Ms Knox's article 6 right to a fair trial has been violated. After all, it's all well and good getting a judgement in your favour, but, the really important part of the process is to have your conviction vacated and your criminal record erased.

 

[acbytesla]

I don't think it has been brought up in the discussion so often. As far as having names in one's cell or knowing guys and bringing them to the apartment I don't think (even by innuendo) there is a sexual component to that but evidentially some who post here do.

Where has your head been the last 7 years? Amanda has constantly been referred to as sleazy, dirty etc. How many times have we read about "sex on a train"? and the many men she had over to the cottage? We have heard that she is obsessed with drugs and more.

While I do believe that this has died down over time, there is little denying that this has been the meme portraying Amanda for the first few years after the murder and still continues by many of the gutters to this day. Even the Italian CSC essentially demanded the sex motive despite that this was abandoned by all of the courts leading up to their bizarre decision.

 

[acbytesla]

What Numbers has posted here is really really important. This rather strange modification of art. 630 is known as an "additive" decision. What the Constitutional Court has done is to assume the position of legislator - effectively rewriting the law in the absence of legislative action in order to make it compliant with article 46 of the European Convention, which itself is a 'bridge' to article 117 of the Italian constitution. It happened as a result of the Dorigo v Italy case.

It is one existing, possible mechanism that will be available as a means of solving the problem of providing restitutio in integrum in the calunnia case - restoring Ms Knox's position - when the ECHR rules that Ms Knox's article 6 right to a fair trial has been violated. After all, it's all well and good getting a judgement in your favour, but, the really important part of the process is to have your conviction vacated and your criminal record erased.

I have been out of the loop for a while. Do we even know if they are reviewing this case? While it does seem that Knox has a case, I haven't read of any real developments by the ECHR.

 

[Kauffer]

I have been out of the loop for a while. Do we even know if they are reviewing this case? While it does seem that Knox has a case, I haven't read of any real developments by the ECHR.

Nothing has been announced yet, but the analysis says they will consider the case. I cannot tell you when that will be.

 

[acbytesla]

Nothing has been announced yet, but the analysis says they will consider the case. I cannot tell you when that will be.

This confuses me. Are you arguing because other cases with similar reasoning has led to a favorable decision for the applicant that this demands that Knox would receive similar treatment? Or has the ECHO said that they would review her case?