Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Has there ever been a case where experts not cross examined at trial played any role in the reversal of a guilty verdict at final sentencing?

I don't doubt there are many cases where defendants have hired experts such as Gill to try the case in the press before that happens, but that's all I see here. A late attempt to sway public opinion with hired guns.

Fortunately, the real case is already in the books, with all the experts on both sides having weighed in, and all the evidence presented. That process lead to a guilty verdict. I look forward to it being finally carried out.

For me it is unfortunately. I also do not look forward to it being carried out.

In this case, the convicting courts have chosen to believe the police-expert, just because. Even in the absence of full disclosure to the defence (as explained upthread), but the Massei court and Nencini court simplt chose to believe the police-expert, even though every other expert holds a contrary opinion....

...... including Peter Gill, whi is an expert in low-copy-number DNA analysis, who says Stefanoni's lab was not equipped for such things, etc.

Regardless of whether or not Gill has standing in anything other than the court of public opinion, Italy cannot be proud of what is about to happen. You would not want it to happen to you, or anyone close to you.
 
Has there ever been a case where experts not cross examined at trial played any role in the reversal of a guilty verdict at final sentencing?

I don't doubt there are many cases where defendants have hired experts such as Gill to try the case in the press before that happens, but that's all I see here. A late attempt to sway public opinion with hired guns.

Fortunately, the real case is already in the books, with all the experts on both sides having weighed in, and all the evidence presented. That process lead to a guilty verdict. I look forward to it being finally carried out.
Why?
 
This links to the text of phone intercepts involving Raffaele Sollecito:

In English (translated from Italian)

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Sollecito-Phone-Intercepts-Nov-3-16-English.pdf


Thanks. I read those earlier through Google's eyes. The translation is much easier.


I find this statement poignant: "Raffaele-Eh, the ok,then nothing, because at seven (female voice in the background smiling)...No, that is, I think we’ll already be gone at seven."

How long had they been kept at the station that first night without so much as a clue as to when they would get home?
 
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Because people who kill people should go to jail.

And those who have not killed, and have not committed any crime, should not be imprisoned or punished.

Judges should carry out the laws of their country and their constitution, when those are just laws. It is a sad statement that in Italy, judges in this case have not followed their country's laws or constitution, with the exception of those in the Hellmann court panel. We shall see what happens in the CSC hearing and in subsequent events.
 
And those who have not killed, and have not committed any crime, should not be imprisoned or punished.

Judges should carry out the laws of their country and their constitution, when those are just laws. It is a sad statement that in Italy, judges in this case have not followed their country's laws or constitution, with the exception of those in the Hellmann court panel. We shall see what happens in the CSC hearing and in subsequent events.

Or all laws were followed correctly, and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.
 
Or all laws were followed correctly, and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.

It would be nice if you put your ideas out there as to why they are guilty.

Also, I'm sure you'd concede that there is such thing as a wrongful conviction... where when you examine the evidence in that (eg. Debra Milke) you become the person being seen as engaging in wild-eyed conspiracy thinking, because you are the one who.....

...... looked at the way Debra Milke was convicted, and saw that it was wrong.

Then again, maybe you believe all convictions are genuine.
 
Or all laws were followed correctly and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.

Start with asking: Why didn't Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito get lawyers? Then ask other questions like: Why did they admit evidence in contravention of Article 192? Why didn't they disclose the EDFs?

You'll soon see that all laws were not followed. We really cannot predict Cassation, but surely you understand that the ECHR will not let this settle.
 
Bill Williams said:
Or all laws were followed correctly, and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.

It would be nice if you put your ideas out there as to why they are guilty.

Also, I'm sure you'd concede that there is such thing as a wrongful conviction... where when you examine the evidence in that (eg. Debra Milke) you become the person being seen as engaging in wild-eyed conspiracy thinking, because you are the one who.....

...... looked at the way Debra Milke was convicted, and saw that it was wrong.

Then again, maybe you believe all convictions are genuine.
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Don't bet on it Bill. It appears to me that many of the guilters who comment on this case conclude that:

- False convictions are rare, therefore they don't happen.

and, consequently

- Anybody who believes in false convictions is a conspiracy theorist.

I wonder if it even occurs to them that the pro innocent people may actually be selective about which cases they choose to contend.

BTW griffin, it is self delusional wishful thinking that the ECHR will dismiss this case. However, I tend to agree with CJ that it won't get that far. There seems to be two types of Italian judges locked in an ongoing struggle. The intelligent ones like Hellmann and Zanetti, and the tenured morons like Massei and Nencini. I am betting on the intelligent ones coming through in the pinch.

Cody
.
 
Or all laws were followed correctly, and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.

So suppose Guede does confess and says he alone was responsible?

I asked you a question previously; if the defence were given access to the electronic data for the mixed DNA Luminol positive marks and as in the case of the bra fastener found the presence of DNA from third or more persons other than Guede or Sollecito would you continue to think these were evidence of guilt?

A second question. The bra fastener shows that the prosecution might only report the presence of the victims and suspects DNA when the DNA of other people are additionally present. Do you think the defence should have the opportunity to examine the original typing data to look for this potentially exonerating information that we know the police scientists will not disclose.
 
Has there ever been a case where experts not cross examined at trial played any role in the reversal of a guilty verdict at final sentencing?

I don't doubt there are many cases where defendants have hired experts such as Gill to try the case in the press before that happens, but that's all I see here. A late attempt to sway public opinion with hired guns.

Fortunately, the real case is already in the books, with all the experts on both sides having weighed in, and all the evidence presented. That process lead to a guilty verdict. I look forward to it being finally carried out.

Hired guns?
 
Hired guns?


Yes griffinmill is still clinging to the desperate theory that Peter Gill is a paid shill for the defence, even though all he's done is appear on a TV show and write a chapter for his book about the case. You'd think if the defence had paid him they'd at least get him to be less equivocating. Unless of course he's just offering his opinion on his area of expertise.

Unfortunately for griffinmill, platonov has shown that when Gill was called as an expert witness for the prosecution in the Omagh bombing case he didn't support them. So much for his hired gun status.

I've always suspected platonov was really a fifth columnist.
 
Lest we forget – what did he say?

Is he now giving her an alibi?

You STILL don't understand this?????!!

Is he still throwing her under a bus? I guess not. You've moved on from that bit of nonsense with our help, haven't you?

Where are you on motive?

Are you in the "She's a dirty American who hated Meredith for hating her" camp?

Or the "She killed Meredith because Meredith blamed her for Guede's stools" camp?

Or the Halloween camp? Or another camp? Kauffer's wondering. - Yikes! An illeism!!
 
gunslinglers

Hired guns?
There is no evidence whatsoever that Gill is a hired gun, but lack of evidence has never been an impediment to griffinmill's previous arguments. In the present case, Novelli took a very different position than he took in the Busco case, as well as what he said in a paper he coauthored. I am waiting for griffinmill to call him a hired gun.

We have seen and discussed more evidence in the past few weeks that some of the prosecution's assertions about DNA were questionable at best. For example, the time between when Adam Scott's DNA arrived in the lab and when it was tested is one of many reasons why their argument that a six-day gap in testing is dubious, even before one factors in that it was a low template sample. We have seen that a British judge made it clear that the onus was on the prosecution to show that the evidence had been handled, tested, and reported correctly, not on the defense to point out which of the forensic workers' errors was responsible for a particular contamination. We have seen from the Duke lacrosse case and the Jane Mixer case that DNA which is not from a suspect can be very important in judging a piece of evidence, contrary to some opinions. And from the pro-guilt commenters we get lame declarations about Gill's not testifying. Well, Tagliabracci did testify, and so did Conti and Vecchiotti and Gino.
 
Or all laws were followed correctly, and the killers were found guilty. I'll be fascinated to read this thread when the CSC confirms, and the ECHR dismisses. Who can guess what fascinating conspiracy theories will emerge.

But it may not come to that point because I suspect one of the three killers will confess at some point.

Can you provide any examples of cases lodged within the appropriate time limits with the ECHR and where there were clear violations of the defendants' Convention rights as in this one and the ECHR did not judge the respondent country in violation? Please provide actual case-law, not merely your opinion.

The ECHR violations in this case include but are not limited to:
1) use of coercion to break the will of a defendant during interrogation (violation of Article 3);
2) denial of counsel during interrogation and police custody, and use of statements derived therefrom for conviction (violation of Article 6.3c with 6.1);
3) denial of facilities for proper defense, by not providing prosecution and police evidence requested by the defense (violation of Article 6.2b with 6.1);
4) use of statements from an unexamined witness to achieve conviction (violation of Article 6.3d with 6.1);
5) use of a court judgment from another trial, where the defendants were not represented, violating the presumption of innocence, in their conviction (violation of Article 6.2);
6) reversal of the burden of proof for evidence of the reliability of evidence, specifically contamination of DNA tests (violation of Article 6.2, presumption of innocence and 6.1, right to an adversarial trial);
7) conviction based on manifestly unreasoned grounds (violation of Article 6.1);
8) conviction following a virulent press campaign and published statements attributing guilt by public officials including police and the Minister of Interior (violation of Article 6.2).

ETA: For (1), the coercion includes use of inhuman and degrading treatment.
ETA2: Other violations of Article 6.2, presumption of innocence, are common in this case. For example, AK and RS are named as perpetrators and conspirators in the appeal motivation report of the fast-track trial of Guede; the break-in is assumed staged without valid evidence offered; a clean-up is assumed without valid evidence offered; foot prints are assumed to be AK's, in blood, and related to the murder, without valid evidence offered; and DNA alleged evidence of the bra clasp and knife blade are accepted as inculpatory without reason although they were thoroughly debunked by independent court experts.
 
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There is no evidence whatsoever that Gill is a hired gun, but lack of evidence has never been an impediment to griffinmill's previous arguments. In the present case, Novelli took a very different position than he took in the Busco case, as well as what he said in a paper he coauthored. I am waiting for griffinmill to call him a hired gun.

We have seen and discussed more evidence in the past few weeks that some of the prosecution's assertions about DNA were questionable at best. For example, the time between when Adam Scott's DNA arrived in the lab and when it was tested is one of many reasons why their argument that a six-day gap in testing is dubious, even before one factors in that it was a low template sample. We have seen that a British judge made it clear that the onus was on the prosecution to show that the evidence had been handled, tested, and reported correctly, not on the defense to point out which of the forensic workers' errors was responsible for a particular contamination. We have seen from the Duke lacrosse case and the Jane Mixer case that DNA which is not from a suspect can be very important in judging a piece of evidence, contrary to some opinions. And from the pro-guilt commenters we get lame declarations about Gill's not testifying. Well, Tagliabracci did testify, and so did Conti and Vecchiotti and Gino.

The fact that the GMill is falling back to a made-up financial motive argument is great. It shows us that there is no response to be made to Gill's qualifications and the substance of his opinions.

I do believe that Gill has an agenda, though. I think that he is trying to publicize the dangers of LCN when it's not done right. This case is the highest-profile, best example of a miscarriage of justice caused by DNA work that was not done properly and with integrity. Gill is using it as his soapbox.
 
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Can you provide any examples of cases lodged within the appropriate time limits with the ECHR and where there were clear violations of the defendants' Convention rights as in this one and the ECHR did not judge the respondent country in violation? Please provide actual case-law, not merely your opinion.

The ECHR violations in this case include but are not limited to:
1) use of coercion to break the will of a defendant during interrogation (violation of Article 3);
2) denial of counsel during interrogation and police custody, and use of statements derived therefrom for conviction (violation of Article 6.3c with 6.1);
3) denial of facilities for proper defense, by not providing prosecution and police evidence requested by the defense (violation of Article 6.2b with 6.1);
4) use of statements from an unexamined witness to achieve conviction (violation of Article 6.3d with 6.1);
5) use of a court judgment from another trial, where the defendants were not represented, violating the presumption of innocence, in their conviction (violation of Article 6.2);
6) reversal of the burden of proof for evidence of the reliability of evidence, specifically contamination of DNA tests (violation of Article 6.2, presumption of innocence and 6.1, right to an adversarial trial);
7) conviction based on manifestly unreasoned grounds (violation of Article 6.1);
8) conviction following a virulent press campaign and published statements attributing guilt by public officials including police and the Minister of Interior (violation of Article 6.2).

ETA: For (1), the coercion includes use of inhuman and degrading treatment.
ETA2: Other violations of Article 6.2, presumption of innocence, are common in this case. For example, AK and RS are named as perpetrators and conspirators in the appeal motivation report of the fast-track trial of Guede; the break-in is assumed staged without valid evidence offered; a clean-up is assumed without valid evidence offered; foot prints are assumed to be AK's, in blood, and related to the murder, without valid evidence offered; and DNA alleged evidence of the bra clasp and knife blade are accepted as inculpatory without reason although they were thoroughly debunked by independent court experts.

I find it interesting that the police have restrained Amanda's freedom of movement as early as November 3, per the phone intercepts:

A: Yes, I’ve asked them if I can leave and they said no; they said I could not leave and they did not know when I would be allowed to leave until the magistrate calls them in three days. But I asked them: “What does it mean? Does it mean that I won’t be able to leave, say, for a month? Or does it mean I won’t be able to leave until all this story ends?” And they went: “We don’t know.” And I said: “I was planning to go home to the United States for Christmas.” But they said, “Ah… We should see if you can do that in three days, when the magistrate calls.”
 
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