Split Thread the TM and anti-semitism

[JSanderO]

This may be off topic...but I came across this quote from The Atlantic:

"Yet the new anti-Semitism flourishing in corners of the European Muslim community would be impoverished without the incorporation of European fascist tropes. Dieudonné M’bala M’bala, a comedian of French Cameroonian descent who specializes in Holocaust revisionism and gas-chamber humor, is the inventor of the quenelle, widely understood as an inverted Nazi salute. His followers have taken to photographing themselves making the quenelle in front of synagogues, Holocaust memorials, and sites of past anti-Jewish terrorist attacks. Dieudonné has built an ideological partnership with Alain Soral, the anti-Jewish conspiracy theorist and 9/11 “truther” who was for several years a member of the National Front’s central committee. Soral was photographed not long ago making the quenelle in front of Berlin’s Holocaust memorial."

 

[Oystein]

JSO, links are always nice:

Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe? By Jeffrey Goldberg. The Atlantic, April 2015.

Perhaps we should open a dedicated thread about the TM and anti-semitism would be a good idea - if there doesn't exist one already.

Haven't read the name Alain Soral, I think. But I have in general never really come across the French branch of the TM. The French Wikipedia article on Alain Soral mentions 9/11 only in passing, the English and German versions not at all. A Google search for "alain soral 11 septembre" delivers some videos and articles, but I am not going to parse the French.

 

[LSSBB]

JSO, links are always nice:

Is It Time for the Jews to Leave Europe? By Jeffrey Goldberg. The Atlantic, April 2015.

Perhaps we should open a dedicated thread about the TM and anti-semitism would be a good idea - if there doesn't exist one already.

Haven't read the name Alain Soral, I think. But I have in general never really come across the French branch of the TM. The French Wikipedia article on Alain Soral mentions 9/11 only in passing, the English and German versions not at all. A Google search for "alain soral 11 septembre" delivers some videos and articles, but I am not going to parse the French.

I agree on a dedicated 9/11 & antisemitism thread however I'd just like to note that with Clayton Moore being banned, it will be missing ... something.

 

[pgimeno]

[OT]

JSO, links are always nice:

Not only that, it's a requirement of the membership agreement:

E2


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[...]

 

[Orphia Nay]

We've had a couple of threads that were 5 pages or more on twoof and antisemitism.

Not sure whether we should bump one of them or start a new one.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157577

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165737

 

[kmortis]

This thread was created from some posts in this thread.

Posted By: kmortis

 

[LSSBB]

We've had a couple of threads that were 5 pages or more on twoof and antisemitism.

Not sure whether we should bump one of them or start a new one.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=157577

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165737

I would just like to say that I looked at those threads and they are kind of old. Anecdotally, I get a feeling that the dynamic has changed. My gut feel is that anti-semites would tend to stick with the movement more than the "question askers", since there aren't really many unanswered questions beyond the level and extent of Saudi involvement, and names redacted for security or privacy reasons.

That said, I look forward to a more evidence based estimate and analysis of anti-semitic involvement.

 

[Oystein]

What is this thread going to be about?
Personally, I have recently come across what feels like a growing number of statements and posts by 9/11 Truthers that blame Israel, Mossad, Americans of Jewish decent. This coincides with me spending more time on Facebook. I can't say for certain that this sort of anti-"Israel" tenor has indeed increased - maybe it's been that way in 9/11-groups on Facebook for a long time and only I didn't see it. I can't say that this has become more prominent on the "old" sites that I used to check out like 911Blogger.

I can't tell if anti-semitism is mainstream, or if it's just a loud minority.

What I am interested in is getting a feel for how many supporters of groups like AE911T are at least borderline a-s, but that is, in general quite difficult to assess. I believe AE911T would censor blatantly a-s statements.

What about leaders, like those on the "911 Consensus Panel"?

 

[Playing Games]

What is this thread going to be about?
Personally, I have recently come across what feels like a growing number of statements and posts by 9/11 Truthers that blame Israel, Mossad, Americans of Jewish decent. This coincides with me spending more time on Facebook. I can't say for certain that this sort of anti-"Israel" tenor has indeed increased - maybe it's been that way in 9/11-groups on Facebook for a long time and only I didn't see it. I can't say that this has become more prominent on the "old" sites that I used to check out like 911Blogger.

I can't tell if anti-semitism is mainstream, or if it's just a loud minority.

What I am interested in is getting a feel for how many supporters of groups like AE911T are at least borderline a-s, but that is, in general quite difficult to assess. I believe AE911T would censor blatantly a-s statements.

What about leaders, like those on the "911 Consensus Panel"?

I see anti-semitism associated more with 911 Truthers and CT'rs. That's still a small minority group of people to me at least. Facebook, in particular, I see a lot of it, especially on AE911 and a few other pages myself. In fact someone was just banned from a group due to bigotry.
It depends how you look at it.

Unfortunately, a lot of them are ignorant and uneducated, which I'm sure you are aware of. They see all kinds of posts blaming the evils of the world on Jews and they follow, without doing any research, they're led to believe. Anti-semitism was the first thing I noticed when I began researching CTs and 911 CTs three years ago.

 

[Oystein]

Richard Gage, in a personal message, now associates himself with a holocaust denier. Found this on Kevin Barrett's "No Lies Radio" website:

http://noliesradio.org/archives/97096

Program starts off with Richard Gage right at the beginning: "Hi! This is Richard Gage, AIA, with Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and you are listening to No Lies Radio"

You never have to dig deep to find anti-semitic dreck. Right now, the current next show is advertised thusly:

Coming Up Friday, April 3rd...
Kevin Barrett's Truth Jihad Radio

EXCLUSIVE BROADCAST:
Tom Mysiewicz: Ted Cruz & his NWO sponsors prepare “end time wealth transfer”
[Image: "BIBI SATANYAHU ORDERED THE HIT ON THE WTC"]
Are the Christian Zionists and their Jewish Zionist financial backers getting ready to blow up the economy…and, along with it, the world? Are they planning an “end times wealth transfer” in which they, the self-appointed “priests,” seize “the spoils of war”?

Tom Mysiewicz says Ted Cruz and his Zionist-psycho brigade are doing a war dance under the blood moons of 2015. Tom writes:

“Christian Zionists believe 2016 is the start of the so-called ‘messianic era.’ Palestinians will be expelled from Israel; a new temple will be constructed on Temple Mount, and animal sacrifices will be resumed. (The recent Israeli election must have given them great encouragement.) For this reason, a blemish-free red heifer is reported to be under guard in the U.S. to be used to commence temple sacrifice in 2016, when it will be three years old.iv Accomplishing this will take much wealth and military action on the part of ‘anointed allies.'”

If it sounds crazy, that’s because…THEY ARE.

Sounds crazy...

 

[dudalb]

Richard Gage, in a personal message, now associates himself with a holocaust denier. Found this on Kevin Barrett's "No Lies Radio" website:

http://noliesradio.org/archives/97096

Program starts off with Richard Gage right at the beginning: "Hi! This is Richard Gage, AIA, with Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth, and you are listening to No Lies Radio"

You never have to dig deep to find anti-semitic dreck. Right now, the current next show is advertised thusly:

Sounds crazy...

Kevin Bartett's calls his radio show "No Lies Radio"????

 

[Jango]

What is this thread going to be about?
Personally, I have recently come across what feels like a growing number of statements and posts by 9/11 Truthers that blame Israel, Mossad, Americans of Jewish decent. This coincides with me spending more time on Facebook. I can't say for certain that this sort of anti-"Israel" tenor has indeed increased - maybe it's been that way in 9/11-groups on Facebook for a long time and only I didn't see it. I can't say that this has become more prominent on the "old" sites that I used to check out like 911Blogger.

I can't tell if anti-semitism is mainstream, or if it's just a loud minority.

What I am interested in is getting a feel for how many supporters of groups like AE911T are at least borderline a-s, but that is, in general quite difficult to assess. I believe AE911T would censor blatantly a-s statements.

What about leaders, like those on the "911 Consensus Panel"?

Which is a mistake to do and is likely the result of already established anti-semitism or enemy conditioning (like Press TV) that has created anti-semitism in people unable to distinguish fact from propaganda.

Israel's proximity to 9/11 is an interesting aspect to the event, though. It is another area where much fragmentary information exists and not many conclusions. From everything I've read and seen, Israel was not operationally involved but they did serve as a lookout as did many other country's security services, which isn't evidence of Israeli operational complicity, but is for the LIHOP hypothesis.

 

[Oystein]

Which is a mistake to do and is likely the result of already established anti-semitism or enemy conditioning (like Press TV) that has created anti-semitism in people unable to distinguish fact from propaganda.

Israel's proximity to 9/11 is an interesting aspect to the event, though. It is another area where much fragmentary information exists and not many conclusions. From everything I've read and seen, Israel was not operationally involved but they did serve as a lookout as did many other country's security services, which isn't evidence of Israeli operational complicity, but is for the LIHOP hypothesis.

Israel gets singled out, and this "fragmentary" evidence (I take that as a euphemism for "insufficient" bordering on "non-existent" evidence) gets interpreted way out of proportion not on its own merit but on ideological predisposition of CTers.

 

[Jango]

Israel gets singled out, and this "fragmentary" evidence (I take that as a euphemism for "insufficient" bordering on "non-existent" evidence) gets interpreted way out of proportion not on its own merit but on ideological predisposition of CTers.

1. There was some stonewalling in the wake of 9/11 about Israel.

2. These facts do get blown out of proportion because they're fueled by racism.

 

[Oystein]

1. There was some stonewalling in the wake of 9/11 about Israel.

2. These facts do get blown out of proportion because they're fueled by racism.

1. There was some stonewalling in the wake of 9/11 about Argentina and Bangladesh, too

2. Anti-semitism is a special and peculiar case of racism. What's your point?

 

[chrismohr]

Do we all agree that opposition to Israeli foreign policy, even thinking Mossad is doing some nasty dark secret things alongside the CIA, is not antiSemitism in and of itself? When I start hearing terms like "the Jews," "the Zionists," etc, I smell an antiSemitic rat. Here in Denver, I have met many people in 911 Truth who are Jewish and rabidly anti-Israeli war policies, and so far only one person in the movement I would consider possibly antiSemitic (only because he picked up on some Holocaust denial ideas and was willing to consider them seriously; he was responsive to my rebuttals however).
I DID get antiSemitic crap in my email box, but haven't seen any of this for about five years. It's there in 911 Truth but it's not endemic, in my experience.
And no, I won't dignify Holocaust denial theories with a debate. They make me puke.

 

[JSanderO]

Israel is a theocracy pretending to be a democracy and so it shares some attributes with Iran for example. Israel has done some very aggressive things and appears to be set on annexing all the occupied territories... Why are they occupied in the first place? Obviously the Arabs are no thrilled that Israel moved in and as the USA is Israel's staunchest allies all sorts of muddying of thinking ensues.

Humans are racists. Not all... but many.

 

[Oystein]

Of course the policies of the Israeli government are as much a legitimate target of scrutiny as any other government's.

However, the big question is: Why bring up Israel in the first place? Why are we - why are truthers! - even dropping the word "Israel" here? The terrorists were not Israelis, and any imagined "inside job" can't be Israel's job since Israel isn't inside.

So EITHER you have real, tangible, unambiguous evidence that directly links Israel to the 9/11 attacks.

OR you start from a premise that Israel is inside the US government, and/or inside world terrorism, and/or Israel is a usual suspect whenever something really bad happends.
Such a premise is anti-semitic.

Since I am not aware of any real, tangible, unambiguous evidence that directly links Israel to the 9/11 attacks, I am left with only one choice when the word "Israel" is dropped into a 9/11 debate.

 

[Jango]

Do we all agree that opposition to Israeli foreign policy, even thinking Mossad is doing some nasty dark secret things alongside the CIA, is not antiSemitism in and of itself? When I start hearing terms like "the Jews," "the Zionists," etc, I smell an antiSemitic rat. Here in Denver, I have met many people in 911 Truth who are Jewish and rabidly anti-Israeli war policies, and so far only one person in the movement I would consider possibly antiSemitic (only because he picked up on some Holocaust denial ideas and was willing to consider them seriously; he was responsive to my rebuttals however).
I DID get antiSemitic crap in my email box, but haven't seen any of this for about five years. It's there in 911 Truth but it's not endemic, in my experience.
And no, I won't dignify Holocaust denial theories with a debate. They make me puke.

Yes.

 

[Jango]

Israel is a theocracy pretending to be a democracy and so it shares some attributes with Iran for example. Israel has done some very aggressive things and appears to be set on annexing all the occupied territories... Why are they occupied in the first place? Obviously the Arabs are no thrilled that Israel moved in and as the USA is Israel's staunchest allies all sorts of muddying of thinking ensues.

Humans are racists. Not all... but many.

The Palestinians have been getting slowly squeezed out, more noticably in the West Bank because of the settlements. Gaza gets squeezed routinely by the IDF or IAF. Israel is restrained diplomatically for trying to realize their manifest destiny. They also have geopolitical imperatives like increasing the size of their country and having more of a buffer zone between them and their enemies, of which, there are many.

The Palestinian statehood issue is being pressed. I wouldn't like to see the U.N. try and force something upon Israel that it does not and will not accept. They do not want to be at the mercy of people just following orders.

The other major geopolitical flashpoint is Iran, its threatening rhetoric, its military deals with Russia and its nuclear program. Israel has a problem with all three and is not liking the support it is getting from the U.S. with these matters.

The Israeli Prime Minister has repeatedly warned that if Israel has to stand alone to confront its enemies, it will. An unmoored Israel is a dangerous commodity from global order.