Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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The interview is a resume for other defense attorneys to read (ie., future clients). Note how he doesn't discuss probablities. He just poses questions.

And note how he stays solely on DNA. He doesn't talk about AK's blood in the bathroom. Or the mixed DNA in Filomena's room. Or the footprints on the bathmat or luminol. Or the shaky alibis (despite Platanov's heroic attempts to explain this). Or the entire circumstantial case.

He just stays focused on what will get him paid later: The idea that debunking the DNA will sway cases even when the overall evidence is overwhelming, all while pretending that the DNA is the only evidence that matters.

What a ridiculous comment. You're attempting to impugn him with a hypothesized financial motive? You must really hate say-anything-for-a-buck embryologist, Novelli--the guy who actually was paid (by both the Kerchers and the prosecution, I believe).

Getting back to Gill, it seems to me that what we have is a case of inventor's remorse. Just like the inventor of dynamite, Gill is horrified to see his invention being misused to justify miscarriages of justice, like this one. Gill is trying to tell people to respect the power of the science, and to use it with competency, rigor and integrity . . . or don't use it.

This case shows us that Italian LCN practice in criminal matters in many respects falls far, far below what is standard and acceptable.
 
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Fascinating quotes from Gill The Shill. Seems he's doing a good job transitioning to the green fields of lucrative defense work.

What predictably disgusting foolishness. So Dr. Peter Gill, one of the fathers of DNA science is a paid "shill?" As is John Douglas, one of the most storied FBI agents in history and the inventor of profiling? As of course are Steve Moore, Jim Clemente, Greg Hampikian, and others.

Let's think this through, briefly: Dr. Peter Gill - a famous DNA scientist with dozens of refereed journal articles to his credit - fails to pass your smell test in a way that Patrizia Stefanoni - who sits at the prosecutor's table and refuses to release her data - effortlessly does? What serious person can you find who would support you?

Perhaps because you have no credentials to risk, your ilk have a bottomless imagination when it comes to the willingness of serious professionals to trade their reputations for a pay-off for which you have no evidence. In order to sustain your fantasy that a provincial madman cooked up before he even had the results of the evidence at his disposal, there is apparently no end to the character assassination in which you will indulge.
 
Why would Peter Gill weigh in on anything other than the DNA? That's his area of expertise. For all we know he doesn't know or care about the rest of the malarkey.

The attempt to smear him on the basis of a hypothetical future financial incentive in hypothetical unrelated cases is desperate.
 
Adam Scott and the gap of time to ensure no contamination

Fascinating quotes from Gill The Shill. Seems he's doing a good job transitioning to the green fields of lucrative defense work.
griffinmill,

I think that that we have finally made a breakthrough. According to John Butler (the author of the most widely used textbook in the field), no one has done more for the science of DNA profiling over the last thirty odd years than Peter Gill has. The central issue is that you don't believe any defense expert as a matter of principle, whereas you have not said anything skeptical of Giuseppi Novelli, despite his stance in this case being at odds with his previous words. Here is a very helpful passage from the interview:

"Q. What other cases have you had experience with elsewhere in the world, which would help us to put his Italian case into context?

A. There is one case I can allude to, which is the case of Adam Scott, which is quite a notorious case here in the UK. A man was accused of a rape, because his DNA profile was obtained from the swabs - the vaginal swabs, and it matched a man who was some hundreds of kilometres away from the crime scene. And he denied ever having been in the place in his life. The evidence was the DNA profile. He was arrested and incarcerated for about six months, and all the time he was protesting his innocence. Luckily for him it came to light that there had been a contamination event in the actual laboratory. His DNA profile had actually been submitted to the same laboratory a couple of weeks previously, and his DNA profile from that particular event from saliva, was transmitted into the casework analysis for the second system." (highlighting mine)

This plus the Leiterman case means that those of us in the reality-based community can now dispense with the "six-day-gap-means-no-contamination" nonsense pushed by the PG-commenters. It also allows us to debunk, yet again, another early myth from the case. The DNA from two men was found in this case, when a semen stain was tested. One of the DNA donors was the woman's boyfriend. The forensic technician who testified said that the mixed DNA indicated semen from both men. In reality it was probably semen from the boyfriend but the DNA from Mr. Scott was originally derived from saliva. Thus, mixed DNA does not mean mixed semen, just as mixed DNA in a bloodstain or putative bloodstain does not demonstrate mixed blood. So much for the mixed DNA in this case. Read Gill's book, if you want to educate yourself further.
 
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griffinmill,

I think that that we have finally made a breakthrough. According to John Butler (the author of the most widely used textbook in the field), no one has done more for the science of DNA profiling over the last thirty odd years than Peter Gill has. The central issue is that you don't believe any defense expert as a matter of principle, whereas you have not said anything skeptical of Giuseppi Novelli, despite his stance in this case being at odds with his previous words. Here is a very helpful passage from the interview:

"Q. What other cases have you had experience with elsewhere in the world, which would help us to put his Italian case into context?

A. There is one case I can allude to, which is the case of Adam Scott, which is quite a notorious case here in the UK. A man was accused of a rape, because his DNA profile was obtained from the swabs - the vaginal swabs, and it matched a man who was some hundreds of kilometres away from the crime scene. And he denied ever having been in the place in his life. The evidence was the DNA profile. He was arrested and incarcerated for about six months, and all the time he was protesting his innocence. Luckily for him it came to light that there had been a contamination event in the actual laboratory. His DNA profile had actually been submitted to the same laboratory a couple of weeks previously, and his DNA profile from that particular event from saliva, was transmitted into the casework analysis for the second system." (highlighting mine)

This plus the Leiterman case means that those of us in the reality-based community can now dispense with the "six-day-gap-means-no-contamination" nonsense pushed by the PG-commenters. It also allows us to debunk, yet again, another early myth from the case. The DNA from two men was found in this case, when a semen stain was tested. One of the DNA donors was the woman's boyfriend. The forensic technician who testified said that the mixed DNA indicated semen from both men. In reality it was probably semen from the boyfriend but the DNA from Mr. Scott was originally derived from saliva. Thus, mixed DNA does not mean mixed semen, just as mixed DNA in a bloodstain or putative bloodstain does not demonstrate mixed blood. So much for the mixed DNA in this case. Read Gill's book, if you want to educate yourself further.

On the Scott case:

"Mr Scott was charged in 23 October 2011 after a plastic tray containing a sample of his DNA was re-used in the analysis of a swab from a rape victim in Plant Hill Park, Blackley. The result of that test linked him to the crime."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19782917

The lab concerned is only a couple of miles from me - a private lab which, according to allegations had taken on too much work in the lead up to the closure of the UK's Forensic Science Service (FSS).

You may recall Peter Gill's concerns expressed in the media about the prospects for justice as a result of the closure. The problems with the Scott case lab and the company which owns it are also referenced here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...phe-warns-godfather-of-forensics-7606789.html
 
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Gill is a scientist; Stefanoni knows which side her bread is buttered on

The interview is a resume for other defense attorneys to read (ie., future clients). Note how he doesn't discuss probablities. He just poses questions.
griffinmill,

This is false. He rubbishes Stefanoni's ridiculous argument based upon where Amanda's DNA was found on the handle. He also points out the dubious notion that one can clean a knife of blood but not of DNA. A further note on the Adam Scott case. The lab ignored negative controls that showed DNA, as of course they should not.
 
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Are you guys quoting griffinmill correctly? Did he really just list a set of pro guilt talking points and then refuse to discuss them with the claim that he was aware of the FOA talking points that refuted his points?

This is the problem with the pro guilt community. All they have is a set of weak talking points that they repeatedly spam after they have been soundly refuted. They won't address the refutations but run and hide under their talking points blanket.

Let's review those talking points that he is repeating this time:

The bath mat print - a partial print that could belong to to just about anyone with that foot size. The print may not be definite enough to exclude either Raffaele or Rudy. But for Rudy alone we have a comprehensive theory that explains the creation of this particular print.

Amanda's blood in the bathroom - Amanda herself discloses this one spot. She tried scraping it and found it was already dry. If it were not dry, she could have washed it away. Why touch it and leave it? Amanda's own testimony declaring that the bathroom was previously clean is used as proof that this single drop of Amanda's blood was from the night of the murder. I pointed out how the colors reflecting off that tap hide the existence of the blood on the tap. Is griffinmill aware of this refutation to his talking point?

The mixed DNA in the bathroom can clearly be identified as background DNA deposited over time by the residents that regularly used that bathroom. Just look at the substrate control samples taken in the bathroom. You do know what substrate controls are and why they are used? At least you would if you have been following this thread. If you ever run into that pseudo doctor Stefanoni, please explain it to her, she must have missed that day in school.
 
griffinmill,

This is false. He rubbishes Stefanoni's ridiculous argument based upon where Amanda's DNA was found on the handle. He also points out the dubious notion that one can clean a knife of blood but not of DNA. A further note on the Adam Scott case. The lab ignored negative controls that showed DNA, as of course they should not.

Was this Stefanoni's argument? It was certainly Comodi's argument, I think.
 
Are you guys quoting griffinmill correctly? Did he really just list a set of pro guilt talking points and then refuse to discuss them with the claim that he was aware of the FOA talking points that refuted his points?

This is the problem with the pro guilt community. All they have is a set of weak talking points that they repeatedly spam after they have been soundly refuted. They won't address the refutations but run and hide under their talking points blanket.
But you do not understand, Dan O. They may not have evidence, they may be refuted - but they still manage to assert their assertions heroically!

Let's review those talking points that he is repeating this time:

The bath mat print - a partial print that could belong to to just about anyone with that foot size. The print may not be definite enough to exclude either Raffaele or Rudy. But for Rudy alone we have a comprehensive theory that explains the creation of this particular print.
Can I be a compleat pain here? It is technically not a print, it is a track. A foottrack. Forensicly they(apparently) are two different animals.

And further, the medium of this foottrack is the pliant material of the bathmat. People who assert that the foottrack points to any one person in particular imply that it is a print, like a fingerprint captured on proper paper, as if done by an experienced police-technician down at the police station.

I'm not saying you are saying this Dan O., but it is as you say - it might be used to exclude someone maybe not, but there's no way in Wednesday that it can I.D. someone. (So far with 165B, there goes the whole case against Raffaele.)

Amanda's blood in the bathroom - Amanda herself discloses this one spot. She tried scraping it and found it was already dry. If it were not dry, she could have washed it away. Why touch it and leave it? Amanda's own testimony declaring that the bathroom was previously clean is used as proof that this single drop of Amanda's blood was from the night of the murder. I pointed out how the colors reflecting off that tap hide the existence of the blood on the tap. Is griffinmill aware of this refutation to his talking point?
Welcome to the concept of "all the other evidence". The first time I ran into this concept was in the late summer of 2011, when the DNA evidence was falling apart. Peter Quennel promised us "all the other evidence". Thnigs like the aforementioned bath mat track..... things like sex on a train.... things like "mixed-blood".... things like Amanda's blood in her own friggin' bathroom!, a lone drop on a faucet.... so much blood in fact, that when the postal police surveyed the bathroom, they thought everyone was overreacting over Meredith's locked door.

The mixed DNA in the bathroom can clearly be identified as background DNA deposited over time by the residents that regularly used that bathroom. Just look at the substrate control samples taken in the bathroom. You do know what substrate controls are and why they are used? At least you would if you have been following this thread. If you ever run into that pseudo doctor Stefanoni, please explain it to her, she must have missed that day in school.

Also griffinmill should watch the collection videos, taken by the Scientific Police themselves. With large swipes of collecting gauze, they found..... are you ready for it.... Meredith's and Amanda's DNA in the very bathroom they'd been sharing for weeks.

It leads me to believe that the next guilter talking point will be the clean-up - but this time a forensic-sterile clean in the late afternoon of Nov 1, to make the cottage ready to receive the forensics from the murder in the sterile environment....

..... so that we can be sure that what is found there is a result of the murder. Oh, all except the presumed semen stain on the pillow found underneath the victim's hips. That must have been from before, because as Massei says in his 2010 motivations report, "DNA does not have a timestamp..."

...... well, all except Amanda's DNA which had to have been deposited the night of the murder. Yes, that's it.
 
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I'm not saying you are saying this Dan O., but it is as you say - it might be used to exclude someone maybe not, but there's no way in Wednesday that it can I.D. someone. (So far with 165B, there goes the whole case against Raffaele.)


I'm not saying that the bathmat stain identifies Rudy. All I am saying is that it fits into an overall narative that Rudy himself confirms for many points. Rudy says he got blood on his trowsers. Rudy says he went into the small bathroom. Rudy says that when he left the cottage his pants were wet and he had to cover them up. Did Rudy happen to leave out how he got Meredith's blood off his bloody hands? Putting Rudy in the shower to clean his hands and rinse the blood off the pant leg compleats the narative and accounts precisely for the partial foot shaped stain in diluted blood on the edge of the bathmat
 
Stefanoni testimony on the knife

Was this Stefanoni's argument? It was certainly Comodi's argument, I think.
Kauffer,

I used themurderofmeredithkercher to look up a translation of Stefanoni's testimony. It could be clearer, but she appears to be making an argument along these lines: "Trace B was taken in this point, not on the basis of any relevant trace from a biological point of view that was, shall we say, visible to the naked eye. However, to the eye was visible, under considerable illumination in fact, a series of striations/scratches/scores were visible, of which one was particularly deep, between inverted commas. They were however striations, so fairly superficial, but clearly visible. These striations went ... they ran largely parallel to the upper part of the blade, so more or less they were parallel to this side. Towards the point, shall we say, they started to descend a bit, so they followed a bit the shape of the point/tip, however they were striations, anomalies in this metal that were visible to the naked eye under an intense illumination, whereas the point of A was sampled, of the handle naturally, as also the D, F, with the intention of possibly finding DNA of the person who had grasped that weapon. In particular, the point A was done in a particular point in which there is the "limit-switch" [sic: fine-corsa in original: perhaps the hand-guard?] of the hand, in other words if I grasp the knife and strike a blow, my hand naturally would tend to go forwards, in that point the knife is made in such a way as to not allow [prevent] such a thing, otherwise my hand would go onto the blade, and so there is a short tail. In short, this part that sticks out here that you see, the sampling was done precisely corresponding to this area, and it had a positive outcome [of] the genetic profile of Knox Amanda."
 
He who pays the piper

The following is an English transcript of Dr. Peter Gill's presentation, March 12, 2015 on Italian TV - Porta a Porta:





Peter Gill Interview, 17/1/2015. English transcript

snip


You seem more interested in what Gill [the guy with the Shoebox story] had to say on Italian TV than was the case with Raffy!

And now RS has given another interview – what did he say this time :)
 
"blowing backwards and forwards"

What predictably disgusting foolishness. So Dr. Peter Gill, one of the fathers of DNA science is a paid "shill?" As is John Douglas, one of the most storied FBI agents in history and the inventor of profiling? As of course are Steve Moore, Jim Clemente, Greg Hampikian, and others.

Let's think this through, briefly: Dr. Peter Gill - a famous DNA scientist with dozens of refereed journal articles to his credit - fails to pass your smell test in a way that Patrizia Stefanoni - who sits at the prosecutor's table and refuses to release her data - effortlessly does? What serious person can you find who would support you?
Perhaps because you have no credentials to risk, your ilk have a bottomless imagination when it comes to the willingness of serious professionals to trade their reputations for a pay-off for which you have no evidence. In order to sustain your fantasy that a provincial madman cooked up before he even had the results of the evidence at his disposal, there is apparently no end to the character assassination in which you will indulge.


I can find one – a renowned DNA expert by the name of Peter Gill but he doesn’t know why he disagrees with himself.

Link



Dr Gill was also challenged over what appeared to be conflicting evidence on the reliability of Low Copy Number DNA testing.
Mr Pownall was questioning him about the amounts of DNA below which results could be relied on.
Giving evidence, Dr Gill said at a certain DNA level information taken from the results could be "informative".
But Mr Pownall pointed out that in papers Dr Gill had written on the subject he had said that at that level the results were "uninformative".
Mr Justice Weir intervened to say it "seems rather an important topic on which to be blowing backwards and forwards on.
'Shades of grey'
"One minute it's informative, the next it's uninformative." He asked which he should accept as expert evidence.
Dr Gill replied that it was a complex area in which there were "shades of grey".
The judge said: "When this evidence is presented on behalf of the prosecution no one talks about it in terms of shades of grey. It's put forward as evidence I can rely on."
This is not the first time the judge has intervened during the evidence of a forensic expert and on Friday, he once again commented that "this is not a scentific symposium, this is an important trial".
Mr Justice Weir then told Dr Gill that it was "very unhelpful for me to have you saying, 'informative one minute and 'uniformitative' the next", adding "why are you saying that?"
"I do not know," Dr Gill replied.

Now this was merely a mass murder [29 victims] trial where he was giving evidence.

Obviously he is much more precise and trustworthy when speaking on BBC radio or Italian TV.
 
Comedy indeed. He's kidded an entire court.

PRESIDENTE - and what about the knife? Did it smell of bleach?
W - It was inside the drawer, I did not smell it, Mr. President, but when I open the drawer I felt a whiff of smell of bleach, however it was predominant throughout the room.

The bleach is detectable in the drawer too, apparently, over and above it's detectability in the rest of the flat, despite:

W – the first thing I noticed was a very strong odor of bleach in the kitchen, and diffused throughout the apartment, it was smelled by me and by all my colleagues.



The more we think about the kitchen knife, the more ridiculous the notion of its employment as a murder weapon becomes.
This kind of thing drives me crazy. It demonstrates an attempt to color his testimony. That somehow the use of bleach is somehow nefarious. That it demonstrates the cleanup of a murder, as opposed to every day cleaning.
 
I can find one – a renowned DNA expert by the name of Peter Gill but he doesn’t know why he disagrees with himself.

Link





Now this was merely a mass murder [29 victims] trial where he was giving evidence.

Obviously he is much more precise and trustworthy when speaking on BBC radio or Italian TV.

Care to comment on the substance of what Gill was saying about this case? Or do you just prefer to dwell on the stuff that doesn't matter.
 
I'm not saying that the bathmat stain identifies Rudy. All I am saying is that it fits into an overall narative that Rudy himself confirms for many points. Rudy says he got blood on his trowsers. Rudy says he went into the small bathroom. Rudy says that when he left the cottage his pants were wet and he had to cover them up. Did Rudy happen to leave out how he got Meredith's blood off his bloody hands? Putting Rudy in the shower to clean his hands and rinse the blood off the pant leg compleats the narative and accounts precisely for the partial foot shaped stain in diluted blood on the edge of the bathmat

Agreed.

What separates Rudy Guede from even the pro-guilt lobby, is that Guede attempts a narrative of the crime - in his case, one in which the evidence he suspects will have to be found (and probably already found) might be skewed into his own innocence-narrative.

However, it shows the perils of trying to manufacture this sort of "limited hang-out". The only thing Rudy admits to, IMO, is to not call for help after seeing someone else do the deed.

That anyone would believe Rudy on anything is simply unbelievable. Yet, Judge Nencini cherry-picks one aspect of Rudy's ever-changing narrative to use to convict AK and RS!

Which one is this? That the fight which led up to Meredith's death was the culmination of a fight over rent money. Rudy is the only source of that - and in ironical fashion, this is part of Rudy's larger narrative where it was Meredith who let him into the cottage (not Amanda) and that he and Meredith had had consensual sex.

Nencini just ignores that part - cherry-picks one factoid from Rudy's account from the others based on...... what?

However, I agree. The nature of the foottrack on the bathmat does not positively i.d. Rudy either. It's hard to know what to make of Rudy's tale that he got blood on his trousers and went into the bathroom to clean off.... it's the same problem that caused Massei to invent the notion of a clean-up.....

...... in the short hallway outside of Meredith's room to the bathroom. There's no actually forensic evidence of a clean (swirls revealed by luminol, etc.) just the absence of evidence.
 
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