DOJ: Ferguson PD descrimination against blacks is routine

[newyorkguy]

A new issue has developed in Ferguson: residents say they seldom see a police car.

The starkest change is perhaps in policing. Once considered an overzealous presence, the police seem far less visible these days, residents said, creating contradictory emotions.

There was a plan to have officers in cars do walking patrols -- a common tactic in communities where there has been a lot of mutual distrust between residents and police -- but I don't think they ever carried through on that.

Police officials said patrols were for a time reduced out of concerns about the safety of officers. In an interview last week, Mr. Knowles also said ticketing had fallen “through the floor” in the months since Mr. Brown’s death because the department had to divert officers to manage protests. Those protests have in recent weeks been sporadic and small.

Yet Mayor James Knowles also said it was imperative that the city examine and improve its policing practices. And, responding to some residents’ concerns that the police have become almost invisible, he added: “We’re not trying to scale back presence. We’re trying to improve the outcomes of the presence that we have.” News link

 

[mgidm86]

Of course it isn't. We all know the real reason for the problem - blacks are prone to criminal behavior because it's in their genes.

On the contrary, the problem won't go away until we ignore racist statistics and stop treating people according to the color of their skin.

That is not at all what I said - strawman, and an offensive one.

I would like to know how you came to this conclusion, poverty plays no part in crime, especially violent crime. Everyone from criminologists to sociologists says it plays a huge part.


Statistics like what? You listed 1,538 major offenses attributed to blacks in St. Louis. The black population in St. Louis is estimated at just over 156,000. That's one major crime for every 100 persons. That's not exactly a mindboggling number.

The way many police departments -- even Ferguson MO in recent months -- has dealt with controlling crime in high-crime neighborhoods is through community policing. To get both cops and residents to feel they're on the same side, want the same things and can achieve it if they work together.

In a place like Ferguson where police were tasked with producing revenue it's not possible to get the community on their side. How would that work? Interviews with local residents make it clear that this emphasis on writing tickets to produce dollars was well-known. The residents didn't need the DoJ to reveal this. They already knew it.

That, again, is not what I said. I said "Blacks are 36 times more likely to be arrested for murder, and are around 2.3 times more likely to be poor. Poverty doesn't seem to be a major factor."

If poverty were a major factor, then why are whites and other minorities not committing an amount of violent crimes proportionate to the amount of poor white/other people in the same area?

I'm just looking at numbers, not racist numbers. If the blacks in this area are 2-3 times more likely to be poor and commit 36 times more murders, I don't see poverty as a major part of the problem.

What I do see is a culture that glorifies the gang lifestyle, and social pressure to be a part of it. African Americans males are killing each other in most cases, largely due to gang activity, so I don't see racism as a big part of it either.

A lot of these crimes are committed by teenagers and young adults. It is a sad fact and I don't see how pretending this isn't true helps solve the problem.

 

[newyorkguy]

That, again, is not what I said. I said "Blacks are 36 times more likely to be arrested for murder, and are around 2.3 times more likely to be poor. Poverty doesn't seem to be a major factor." If poverty were a major factor, then why are whites and other minorities not committing an amount of violent crimes proportionate to the amount of poor white/other people in the same area?

This is an example of how statistics can be misleading. What percentage of the offenders are from low-income groups? You seem to be under the impression if Group A is 36 times more likely to commit a murder but only 2.3 times more likely to be "poor" that means the vast majority of murderers from Group A must not be poor.

First of all, that doesn't necessarily follow. For one thing, in St Louis the sampling size for the murderers is 109. The sampling size for those in poverty is 350,000. Second, linking poverty with crime rates is not a new theory. It goes back hundreds of years. There is a pathology to poverty that you see in most poor societies.

If you look at the city-data site for St. Louis you discover in 2009 70% of the city's wage earners earned less than $50,000 a year. You discover almost one-third of St. Louis households had a median income of under $20,000 a year. You show me a major urban area where one-third of the households have an income under $20,000 -- and that's households (over 47,000) meaning it probably amounts to over one hundred thousand people -- and I'm going to expect there is going to be a crime problem. And there is.

A lot of these crimes are committed by teenagers and young adults. It is a sad fact and I don't see how pretending this isn't true helps solve the problem.

I think it's true everywhere that most crime -- especially violent street crime -- is committed by offenders under the age of 25. Corrections people refer to it as "aging out." You're writing that pretending it isn't true doesn't "help solve the problem." Solve what problem?

Are you implying if young blacks were better behaved than the police would treat black people of all ages nicer?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I ruminate.
The question for Ferguson is basically deciding which group of alphas they want running the show: those with legal guns and an oath to protect the citizenry, or those with violent intentions, no oath to any save themselves, and illegal/unregistered weapons.

Good to know that their legal guns and oaths excuse all their criminal actions. Holding them responsible is crazy talk, only black civilians should be held responsible and certainly only they deserve collective responsibility.

 

[ponderingturtle]

A lot of the practices documented in the report were illegal. One doesn't need to go through the ballot box to challenge those - the law is already there, just not being enforced.

If elections were the only acceptable way forward, then in municipalities with a majority of racists, the minorities would have no acceptable route to recourse - as opposed to reality, where protests can get enough focus to start investigations into these bent forces. he protests led to the DoJ report.

If they are too lazy to vote they clearly deserve to have their rights violated constantly. Aren't you paying attention?

 

[Wolrab]

If they are too lazy to vote they clearly deserve to have their rights violated constantly. Aren't you paying attention?

I don't think anyone is saying that. What is being said is they must take charge. The way to do that is by voting to fix things. It is well within their power and long overdue.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think anyone is saying that. What is being said is they must take charge. The way to do that is by voting to fix things. It is well within their power and long overdue.

Yea, because no one will ever hold the police accountable for the illegal actions with out that. Or take any real issue with them at all, after all you can just easily shift the talking points away from police misconduct to blame the community. Win win really.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Good to know that their legal guns and oaths excuse all their criminal actions. Holding them responsible is crazy talk, only black civilians should be held responsible and certainly only they deserve collective responsibility.

Jeez, is that what I said?
No, that's what you said. This is a forum for critical thinking. Quiz: what logical fallacy are you bathing in here?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Jeez, is that what I said?
No, that's what you said. This is a forum for critical thinking. Quiz: what logical fallacy are you bathing in here?

So what should be done about the constant violations of constitutional rights by the police? You have be consistently downplaying of this and ignoring it.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

So what should be done about the constant violations of constitutional rights by the police? You have be consistently downplaying of this and ignoring it.

My question first! What argumentive fallacy was used as a springboard to dive into the pool of blather that followed it?

 

[Upchurch]

The problem won't go away if we just give up. The solution may not be at all easy, but a solution that requires hard work is better than no solution at all. The DOJ ruling on this is a good start, take that and run with it.

I'm not suggesting that giving up will solve anything, but I'm also not convinced that simply swapping out people running the current system is the fix either. It's the current system, I think, that's the problem.

And, for the record, I don't claim to know what the solution ought to be.

 

[Upchurch]

My question first!

Gawdzilla's question was asked of you first. I don't think you're in any position to demand answers of others.

 

[ponderingturtle]

My question first! What argumentive fallacy was used as a springboard to dive into the pool of blather that followed it?

Yea true they were totally asking for it by all that slutty non voting. If only they behaved properly this would totally not be an issue.

 

[newyorkguy]

The upcoming election in Ferguson is on April 7 and three of seven city council seats are up for grabs. There are eight candidates -- none of the incumbents are running -- and four of them are black. Presently only one of the council seats is held by a black person; in a city with a 67% black population.

It is a daunting job though.

Running for local government is rarely glamorous, and at this moment in Ferguson, it seems especially unappealing. The next Council members will face enormous pressure and scrutiny during their three-year terms, all for a job that pays a $250 monthly stipend.

They will need to reach accommodation with the Justice Department, which this month called for sweeping changes in the city’s police and courts in an effort to end discriminatory law enforcement. They will need to find a new city manager and police chief, all the while under the eyes of political activists and media from around the world. News link

Voters have other concerns as well. One man who has served on various city boards and commissions says a frequent complaint that he hears is about street repair. Property owners are concerned with declining property values largely because of all the bad publicity. Another issue is finding the revenue to run the city. The police department was producing over $150,000 a month by writing summons. That number has already declined dramatically and the city needs to find a way to make up the difference.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

Yea true they were totally asking for it by all that slutty non voting. If only they behaved properly this would totally not be an issue.

I'm shocked that a rational argument is absent from this post. Shocked.
Hint: same fallacy

 

[Wolrab]

Yea, because no one will ever hold the police accountable for the illegal actions with out that. Or take any real issue with them at all, after all you can just easily shift the talking points away from police misconduct to blame the community. Win win really.

I stated earlier that bad cops should be prosecuted, fired, or both.

The citizens do bear some responsibility by voting out the corrupt and incompetent.

 

[Upchurch]

The citizens do bear some responsibility by voting out the corrupt and incompetent.

But not so much responsibility that it dismisses or excuses their rights being trampled upon. It certainly doesn't excuse writing off the oppressed as lazy.

 

[Upchurch]

RedState: Many Conservatives are Blowing it on the Ferguson DOJ Report

This article mirrors much of the arguments made in this thread (and maybe the other one, in case I'm confusing them again):

The reflexive defense of the FPD by conservatives tends to come from two sources: the first is the belief among many conservatives that Officer Darren Wilson was telling the truth and that the witnesses and friends of Michael Brown were lying – and thus by extension, the DOJ is perceived to be taking the “Michael Brown side” and therefore is not credible. However, this particular source of distrust makes no sense as the DOJ likewise did not charge Officer Wilson in connection with the Michael Brown shooting. Thus, insofar as the credibility of a person is judged by whether they believe the spurious “hands up, don’t shoot” narrative, the DOJ comes down on the side of conservatives.

The second is the belief that the FPD was unfairly targeted by the DOJ as retribution for the fact that Officer Wilson was not indicted by the local authorities. Many conservatives I have spoken to are of the opinion that the FPD is no worse than any other police department and that they oppose the FPD being targeted simply because of the Michael Brown incident. I suppose this is probably true, but what I don’t understand is why that is seen as a feature, not a bug. The information I am going to describe below is appalling and breathtaking. If Ferguson is no worse than other cities, then why don’t we say that the problem is that all cities need to look very hard at fixing their municipal police departments, rather than that the Ferguson PD should be excused?

The author then breaks the article down into five conclusions:

1. The Ferguson Police Department acts almost exclusively as a revenue generation machine for the city.
2. The Ferguson PD Habitually Uses Excessive Force
3. The Ferguson PD has Utterly Failed to Supervise its Officers’ Use of Force
4. The Ferguson PD Systematically Punishes Residents of Ferguson for ‘Contempt of Cop’
5. The Evidence of Racial Bias in the Administration of Justice in Ferguson is Overwhelming

The author then starts his summary with:

I am not going to sugar coat this or engage in a lot of pointless throat clearing here – the report, taken as a whole, even in terms of material collected exclusively from FPD documents, is incredibly damning of police and municipal court practices in Ferguson. Anyone who can read the actual report itself and be comfortable with the fact that citizens of an American city live under such a regime is frankly not someone who is ideologically aligned with me in any meaningful way. The practices of the FPD and Municipal Court are destructive to freedom and in blatant violation of our constitutional rights, and they depend for sufferance on the fact that most people are not willing (or, in the case of most of Ferguson’s residents, able) to mount an expensive legal fight for relatively trivial amounts of money such as are involved in a traffic ticket. Evidence of the Ferguson PD’s knowledge of their blatantly unconstitutional practices (especially with respect to the habitual issuance of arrest warrants for missing a payment) is shown in the report by the way that the Municipal Court regularly drops these warrants as soon as a defendant appears with counsel.

This is as fair as of a summary of the DOJ report as I think there can be.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

But not so much responsibility that it dismisses or excuses their rights being trampled upon. It certainly doesn't excuse writing off the oppressed as lazy.

How much effort does it take to vote once every few years?

 

[jimbob]

How much effort does it take to vote once every few years?

I think that is missing the point slightly

A lot of the practices documented in the report were illegal. One doesn't need to go through the ballot box to challenge those - the law is already there, just not being enforced.

If elections were the only acceptable way forward, then in municipalities with a majority of racists, the minorities would have no acceptable route to recourse - as opposed to reality, where protests can get enough focus to start investigations into these bent forces. he protests led to the DoJ report.