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Which ambush?

The one where two officers were shot from over a hundred yards away, which seems to have taken advantage of the relatively stationary position of the officers caused by them addressing the protest, and also the crowds of the protest to obscure their identities and position. The shooters may or may not have also been protestors.

This 'no true protestor' argument has some validity. Unlike the police force, there is no way for the protestors to vet each other. Anyone can show up and protest and then riot, or loot, or commit other crimes. There are also fewer ways for protestors to actually address the crimes of their fellow protestors. It's important to note that several times during this entire ordeal following the death of Brown that protestors have done what they could to protect businesses, and people, and document crimes.

But they have also made decisions that have enabled crimes, such as this shooting. At first I was wondering why they were protesting the police chief resigning, which you would think they would be cheering, but it turns out they were protesting for more resignations. Still, protesting after dark has had the very predictable result of enabling the worst elements of among the protestors and others who simply want to take advantage of the protests to do things like loot and shoot. One might be able to make the argument that these things are worth it to continue the protests, which by their very nature are near impossible to keep completely smooth.

This wasn't Selma. As much as many of the protestors have tried to keep out bad elements, they haven't all tried, and they haven't done as much as they could.

Again, I'm not trying to claim an equivalency to the police actions, but handwaving the problems in the protestors does the cause no favors.


EDIT: Missed about five or six posts while typing this one.
 
Oh BS, all of the looting and burning happened during the night, and thanks to the police having to deal with "peaceful protesters" there was no manpower to stop it.

And the whole mess started with the "hands up don't shoot" lie which even the Justice Dept. was forced to admit.

I wish I could find a video, and I think I posted about earlier, but a local TV station was interviewing one of the "peaceful protestor" leaders, and he asker her (regarding the burning and looting) if she would report any troublemakers amongst her group, to which she replied that she wasn't a cop, that wasn't her job, it's the police's responsibility to stop crime etc. In other words, no.

Trash.
 
The Shooting of two Cops in Ferguson. You have been dancing aroud this for some time, because it does not fit into your scenario.
Well, back one page:
Someone did.


Even though the protestors did not aim the gun or pull the trigger, you are blaming them for the shooting because they were in the area? By this standard, should you not also blame those who manufactured and sold the gun? Or the people who built the street? Or the press? Or the other cops who were also there? If not, why not?

How is this not the 100% responsibility of the person who pulled the trigger?
I seem to be one of the few calling for the shooter to be held responsible. Others are blaming the protestors for having also been there. What, exactly, have I been avoiding?


eta: from the linked link.
Chief Belmar said people had a right to protest peacefully, but also said “there is an unfortunate association with that gathering” and the shooting.

“I feel confident that for whatever reason they were observers, whatever you want to call it, with the group of individuals that were down there protesting,” he said. “This is no reflection, again, on any of those guys, they can’t help it.”

Witnesses among the demonstrators denied any link to the shootings, saying that they believed the shots originated from the top of a hill about 220 yards directly across from the station. Chief Belmar did not specify a location, but estimated the distance at 125 yards.

“There’s just no way anybody I know did that,” said Bob Hudgins, a protester who is running for City Council. “This was completely out of the blue, and they were not attached or embedded” with the demonstration.

“Nobody’s happy about this today,” he said.
 
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I wish I could find a video, and I think I posted about earlier, but a local TV station was interviewing one of the "peaceful protestor" leaders, and he asker her (regarding the burning and looting) if she would report any troublemakers amongst her group, to which she replied that she wasn't a cop, that wasn't her job, it's the police's responsibility to stop crime etc. In other words, no.

Trash.

This.
If there are people who will not see any evil in the Ferguson Police Forcer, there are people who will not see any evil in the "peace protestors".

Frankly, the Governor of Missouri...who seems to be MIA a lot of the time in this.....needs to simply declare a state of emergency in Ferguson and simply ban all demonstrations for a couple of days. And temporary actions like this have been ruled on as being constituional time and time again.
 
The one where two officers were shot from over a hundred yards away, which seems to have taken advantage of the relatively stationary position of the officers caused by them addressing the protest, and also the crowds of the protest to obscure their identities and position. The shooters may or may not have also been protestors.

This 'no true protestor' argument has some validity. Unlike the police force, there is no way for the protestors to vet each other. Anyone can show up and protest and then riot, or loot, or commit other crimes. There are also fewer ways for protestors to actually address the crimes of their fellow protestors. It's important to note that several times during this entire ordeal following the death of Brown that protestors have done what they could to protect businesses, and people, and document crimes.

But they have also made decisions that have enabled crimes, such as this shooting. At first I was wondering why they were protesting the police chief resigning, which you would think they would be cheering, but it turns out they were protesting for more resignations. Still, protesting after dark has had the very predictable result of enabling the worst elements of among the protestors and others who simply want to take advantage of the protests to do things like loot and shoot. One might be able to make the argument that these things are worth it to continue the protests, which by their very nature are near impossible to keep completely smooth.

This wasn't Selma. As much as many of the protestors have tried to keep out bad elements, they haven't all tried, and they haven't done as much as they could.

Again, I'm not trying to claim an equivalency to the police actions, but handwaving the problems in the protestors does the cause no favors.


EDIT: Missed about five or six posts while typing this one.

The organizers of these protest have done a damn poor job of weeding out the bad elements.
IMHO time to simply ban all demonstations in Ferguson for a couple of days.
 
Wait, they were in police uniforms? and they had weapons on them? Well, if you act like a thug, people will treat you like a thug.

Sounds really stupid, doesn't it?

As far as I've heard, the two police who were shot are expected to make a full recovery, and I'm glad to hear it. This does nothing to change the main problem at hand, though - which is the wild overpolicing of the people in the area.
 
I never said that.
But,frankly, since it's clear that the protests in Ferguson always seem to end in violence, the time has come to simply ban them on a temporary basis.
 
And there are people who will not see that not every protestor is evil.

I don't see every protestor as evil, but I do see every protest in Ferguson having an evil element in it. This evil element absolutely poisons every protest that carries it, and taints every protestor who chooses to participate in the protest.

You think the message of last night's protest will be "more cops should resign"? No, the message will be "Ferguson is crawling with violent douchebags who are willing to loot, burn, and shoot people under cover of so-called 'peaceful protests'".

And Ferguson is also apparently full of people who will continue to stage "peaceful protests" regardless. I think it's obvious that the peaceful protestors are interested in solving other problems than violent protestors in Ferguson, and accept the violence as a worth-while tradeoff for the goals they are working towards.

Not that there's anything wrong with that. The people of Ferguson know better than I do, what their problems are and what trade-offs they need to make. Let them police their own violent element, if they don't trust or want the police to do it. If it's a serious problem, let the governor ban protests for a few days. But I think the time has definitely passed for "but I'm a peaceful protestor!" to serve to deflect responsibility for the violence. The protests are serving as cover for the violence. That's something the peaceful protestors need to accept as a worthwhile trade-off for what they're doing, or else they need to stop doing it.

And of course, "stopping crime is the job of the police" is a complete non-starter.
 
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...or those are the only times protests get coverage.

Well, let's be honest. Ferguson became big news because the police in the area decided to attack the reporters who showed up for the protests. That was an incredibly foolish move - we saw them arrest a Washington Post reporter, we saw them tear-gas Al-Jazeera. We heard/saw them just flat-out attacking people who were simply walking down the street, who were broadcasting.

And now apologies are expected. I'm guessing the answer is "no".
 
I don't see every protestor as evil, but I do see every protest in Ferguson having an evil element in it. This evil element absolutely poisons every protest that carries it, and taints every protestor who chooses to participate in the protest.
Despite having no control over what other people may do during a protest, all protestors at a protest where something bad happens is tainted with evil?



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Despite having no control over what other people may do during a protest, all protestors at a protest where something bad happens is tainted with evil?
Yes, and I explained why in the part of the post you snipped. Violence in the protest taints the peaceful nature of the protest. It's no longer peaceful. Those protestors who set out to protest peacefully are now participating in a violent protest. That they are participating peacefully does little to alter the public perception--or the reality of the violent protest. I don't know what the solution is, for these peaceful protestors in violent protests, but I do think it's obviously a problem for them.
 
It's nearly farcical, the protester's view that police are the problem, when they make this sort of thing possible for the criminal element that's the actual problem. Useful idiots indeed.
 
So, will the prosecutor put "witnesses" on the stand who he knows weren't there? Because, you know, that's all the evidence, and he just has to put it all to the jury?

Huh?

Oh, he won't? Interesting...
 
It's nearly farcical, the protester's view that police are the problem, when they make this sort of thing possible for the criminal element that's the actual problem. Useful idiots indeed.

It is possible for there to be more than one problem.

Apart from the riots, I don't know what the crime rate is.

The police force is a problem. That is what the DoJ report said.

Putting it crudely - the police were acting as an extortion racket

'Between July 1, 2010, and June 30, 2014, the City of Ferguson issued approximately 90,000 citations and summonses for municipal violations. Notably, the City issued nearly 50% more citations in the last year of that time period than it did in the first. This increase in enforcement has not been driven by a rise in serious crime. While the ticketing rate has increased dramatically, the number of charges for many of the most serious offenses covered by the municipal code—e.g., Assault, Driving While Intoxicated, and Stealing—has remained relatively constant'

'In fiscal year 2009, 16,178 new cases were filed, and 8,727 were resolved. In 2014, by contrast, 24,256 new offenses were filed, and 10,975 offenses were resolved.'

'FERGUSON LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS ARE FOCUSED ON GENERATING REVENUE
City officials have consistently set maximizing revenue as the priority for Ferguson’s law enforcement activity. Ferguson generates a significant and increasing amount of revenue from the enforcement of code provisions. The City has budgeted for, and achieved, significant increases in revenue from municipal code enforcement over the last several years, and these increases are projected to continue. Of the $11.07 million in general fund revenue the City collected in fiscal year 2010, $1.38 million came from fines and fees collected by the court; similarly, in fiscal year 2011, the City’s general fund revenue of $11.44 million included $1.41 million from fines and fees. In its budget for fiscal year 2012, however, the City predicted that revenue from municipal fines and fees would increase over 30% from the previous year’s amount to $1.92 million; the court exceeded that target, collecting $2.11 million. In its budget for fiscal year 2013, the City budgeted for fines and fees to yield $2.11 million; the court exceeded that target as well, collecting $2.46 million. For 2014, the City budgeted for the municipal court to generate $2.63 million in revenue. The City has not yet made public the actual revenue collected that year, although budget documents forecasted lower revenue than was budgeted. Nonetheless, for fiscal year 2015, the City’s budget anticipates fine and fee revenues to account for $3.09 million of a projected $13.26 million in general fund revenues.8'

'The report stated that the acting prosecutor had reviewed the City’s “high volume offenses” and “started recommending higher fines on these cases, and recommending probation only infrequently.” While the report stated that this recommendation was because of a “large volume of non-compliance,” the recommendation was in fact emphasized as one of several ways that the code enforcement system had been honed to produce more revenue.'

'In combination with a high fine schedule, the City directs FPD to aggressively enforce the municipal code. City and police leadership pressure officers to write citations, independent of any public safety need, and rely on citation productivity to fund the City budget. In an email from March 2010, the Finance Director wrote to Chief Jackson that “unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections next year. What are your thoughts? Given that we are looking at a substantial sales tax shortfall, it’s not an insignificant issue.” Chief Jackson responded that the City would see an increase in fines once more officers were hired and that he could target the $1.5 million forecast. Significantly, Chief Jackson stated that he was also “looking at different shift schedules which will place more officers on the street, which in turn will increase traffic enforcement per shift.” Shortly thereafter, FPD switched to the 12-hour shift schedule for its patrol officers, which FPD continues to use. Law enforcement experience has shown that this schedule makes community policing more difficult—a concern that we have also heard directly from FPD officers. Nonetheless, while FPD heavily considered the revenue implications of the 12-hour shift and certain other factors such as its impact on overtime and sick time usage, we have found no evidence that FPD considered the consequences for positive community engagement. The City’s 2014 budget itself stated that since December 2010, “the percent of [FPD] resources allocated to traffic enforcement has increased,” and “[a]s a result, traffic enforcement related collections increased” in the following two years. The 2015 budget added that even after those initial increases, in fiscal year 2012-2013, FPD was once again “successful in increasing their proportion of resources dedicated to traffic enforcement” and increasing collections.'

'FPD has communicated to officers not only that they must focus on bringing in revenue, but that the department has little concern with how officers do this. FPD’s weak systems of supervision, review, and accountability, discussed below in Part III.A., have sent a potent message to officers that their violations of law and policy will be tolerated, provided that officers 12 continue to be “productive” in making arrests and writing citations. Where officers fail to meet productivity goals, supervisors have been instructed to alter officer assignments or impose discipline. In August 2012, the Captain of the Patrol Division instructed other patrol supervisors that, “[f]or those officers who are not keeping up an acceptable level of productivity and they have already been addressed at least once if not multiple times, take it to the next level.” He continued: “As we have discussed already, regardless of the seniority and experience take the officer out of the cover car position and assign them to prisoner pick up and bank runs. . . . Failure to perform can result in disciplinary action not just a bad evaluation.” Performance evaluations also heavily emphasize productivity. A June 2013 evaluation indicates one of the “Performance-Related Areas of Improvements” as “Increase/consistent in productivity, the ability to maintain an average ticket [sic] of 28 per month.”
Not all officers within FPD agree with this approach. Several officers commented on the futility of imposing mounting penalties on people who will never be able to afford them. One member of FPD’s command staff quoted an old adage, asking: “How can you get blood from a turnip?” Another questioned why FPD did not allow residents to use their limited resources to fix equipment violations, such as broken headlights, rather than paying that money to the City, as fixing the equipment violation would more directly benefit public safety.10'

'The February 2011 report notes Judge Brockmeyer’s statement that “none of these changes could have taken place without the cooperation of the Court Clerk, the Chief of Police, and the Prosecutor’s Office.” Indeed, the acting prosecutor noted in the report that “I have denied defendants’ needless requests for continuance from the payment docket in an effort to aid in the court’s efficient collection of its fines.”'



24,000 citations in one year for a population of 21,000 is nothing short of outrageous. Many of the citizens of Ferguson would have been better off under Ankh Morpork's Thieves Guild.
 
I'm sure restricting people's right to peacefully assemble to daylight hours only would be a major Constitutional violation. Can anyone cite the part of the first amendment that provides for that? The same thing applies to someone who commits an act of violence during a demonstration. That's an individual act. The people protesting peacefully still have the Constitutional right to assemble to protest against the government.

This has always been an issue with any protest when there's a violent act. The people who are opposed to the aims of the demonstrators in principle always use the violent act as a rationale to stop the protests.
 
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