Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I'm a parent. I have a daughter. I used to get woken up all the time at all hours of the night. I was conditioned that way from when she was newborn to about 3 years old. So it's no big deal to wake up in the middle of the night.

When she gets to be of college age and is on her own, I absolutely want to be called "in the middle of the night" if something is about to involve the police. From the call list it appears the she called her mom about 3-4 minutes before Raf called the police.

Asserting that this makes her look guilty is just more conformation bias.

A long time ago I used my confirmation bias to accuse Stefanoni of deliberately contaminating (essentially wiping) Raffaele's DNA on the bra clasp. My confirmation bias included my reading of Stefanoni rounding up her posse of lab aids to drive to Perugia 46 days after the crime to find the bra clasp, kind of like Machiavelli's view of Amanda standing guiltly in her kitchen while 7 older Italians stood closer to Meredith's bedroom door. More of my accusation was based on Stefanoni's stance and gleeful body language in front of the camera as she held up her trophy bra clasp in her dirty glove, kind of like Machiavelli's reading of Amanda's body language waiting in her front yard just after the body was discovered.

Imagine my disappointment when experts here explained that the amount of DNA on the bra clasp hook that might be compatible with a large subset of Italian men (including Raffaele) is (because of the low amounts) likely a result of contamination rather than a deliberate rub by Stefanini of Raf's DNA on the bra clasp hook. Imagine Machiavelli's disappointment when the DNA of four individuals showed up in small (trace?) amounts on the clasp hook (in addition to the victim's own ample DNA). :mad:
 
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This is definitely true. If it could be proven that the bra never left that room, then yeah you might have a case for placing Raffaele in the room, otherwise any number of people could have touched it anywhere, and the number of people can sometimes depend on how long Meredith wore that bra.

My sisters have told me they will sometimes wear the same bra a couple days in a row, sometimes more.

Another thing my sisters do, and I've actually seen them do it, is when they are introduced to a new guy, sometimes after shaking their hands, they will adjust their bras, sometimes before, sometimes after, and sometimes both, but mostly after. I told them about it, and they didn't consciously realize they were doing it, but the next time they did it, they realized it was kind of a grooming and attraction thing. Fix themselves up quickly. Like when you pass a mirror. Most people will stop and check to see if nothings out of place. That kind of thing.

Me and my sisters talk about some weird stuff, as you can tell,

d

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ETA: someone else here mentioned that touching the bra thing a long time ago (2 or 3 years ago), but I can't remember who exactly.

Hey Dave,

I think this idea (in HILITE) is what Dr Gill was talking about as the "CSI effect" or confirmation bias, in that BBC Radio 4 interview.

Even if the bra could be shown to have never left the room, finding DNA on it isn't necessarily incriminating, anymore than finding Amanda's DNA in her own bathroom.

Even though bathroom DNA is a more likely find, the fact is Amanda lived there, and Raf had a legitimate reason to visit, means their DNA could show up, certainly in trace amounts, or even in reliable quantities.

Now Raf's DNA in Meredith's vagina, or Raf's sperm on the pillow beneath her, would be harder to explain.

But the point Dr Gill made is that DNA can identify people who have no plausible or legitimate reason to be in the house, like Rudy.

PLUS, DNA is looked at in combination with the physical context in which it is found.
Chris H has referred to Gill's description as source (sampled from visible stains), to subsource (LCN, just shows up in the results).

Raf's lawyer Bonjourno argued he was not a dragonfly that could zip into the room, participate in a bloody violent murder, not step in wet blood, touch nothing else, and leave a trace of DNA only on a tiny metal bra clasp and not the bra fabric as Guede did - along with 2-4 other guys who also could be presumed on the same evidence to have done the same things. (a feat Dr Mark Waterbury described as a "scientific impossibility").

AND, there is the fact that Amanda says they spent the night together at Raf's apartment, and there is witness and computer evidence to support that alibi.
So for me, I can't agree a simple finding of a trace amount of DNA could ever be conclusive evidence of presence in the room when the crime was committed.
Nor would a larger than trace sample provide a substantially stronger case, for the reasons you describe, and the surrounding circumstances I described.

In this case though, Stef antics in the lab make it fairly plain that none of these DNA results from the knife or bra clasp are even real and legitimate findings.

There is a reality, a truth at the bottom of all these discussions. And fiddling with minor ticks in evidence results, doesn't alter the underlying reality. One set of footsteps in Meredith's wet blood - start with that and try fitting anyone else in that room - I can't do it.

Just for fun, consider this scenario:
I saw a TV show where an angry woman in Montreal, seduced a neighbor, saved his sperm, and planted it on the body of another neighbor she had killed, because the other neighbor had killed her cat.

Imagine a real life jury dealing with that fictional case? Tough to defend? Under the view you've described, dude is toast.
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I agree, but let's be clear; if the bra never left the room, you MIGHT be able to make a case placing Raffaele in the room, but it wouldn't prove he killed Meredith.

Like Chris keeps posting, DNA alone is not date-stamped,

d

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For those who would rather not rely on strawman arguments, the following is an English version of Raffaele's appeal amendment to Cassazione.

As you will see, the gloves are off. Also, no mention at all of withdrawal of alibi.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Summary-Sollecito-New-Reasons-of-Appeal.docx

The Court of Florence did not analyze Sollecito’s position separately from Knox’s.
Particularly it appears that the Court denied the need for such an analisys because Sollecito had not dissociated himself from Knox.

In truth in all the recorded statements by Sollecito, he claims he does not remember the details of that evening because he had smoked marijuana. He does not remember exactly if Knox went out of his flat or not. On the other hand Sollecito is not accusing Knox: he cannot believe that she may have participated to such a heinous crime.

But this should not have prevented the Court of Florence from examining the possibility of an acquittal of Sollecito independently from Knox’s position.

Moreover the appealed ruling itself admits than in her 1.45 statement Knox places herself at Piazza Grimana not together with Sollecito, but with Lumumba.

For what concerns witness Curatolo and his sighting of the two defendants together at Piazza Grimana that evening, his unreliability has already been exposed previously, together with the paradoxical fact that accepting his testimony as true would mean giving the two defendants an alibi.
 
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I agree, but let's be clear; if the bra never left the room, you MIGHT be able to make a case placing Raffaele in the room, but it wouldn't prove he killed Meredith.
Like Chris keeps posting, DNA alone is not date-stamped,

d

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Make a case that Raf was in the room, beyond reasonable doubt?

The sample size I think Dr Gill said was the equivalent of 4-5 cells.

If it could have been contaminated by Raf touching the outside door handle, which we know occurred. And carried in by a gloved technician, that seems a plausible route for contamination. Which means building a case beyond reasonable doubt is not possible.

The absence of any footprints in wet blood, in addition to Rudy's proves (imo) that no one else besides Rudy and Meredith were in the room when Meredith was attacked.

There's two issues I guess.

One is the quantity of DNA on the bra clasp itself, and how it might have come to be there.

The second, is the context of the totality of physical evidence in the room.

To make a case, or any argument, as to what happened, seems to me you have to account for everything.

You could prove Rudy Guede guilty, without any of the DNA. But finding Rudy's DNA in the quantity and frequency with which it was found, is wholly consistent with the violent and sexual nature of the act. (Sperm would be Rudy's too, if tested, or if the testing had been disclosed, my guess).

Question from another point of view: Would you make the same case about the 2-4 additional males also found on the bra clasp? Must they all have been in the room?

Your argument effectively precludes secondary, tertiary, or higher levels of transfer. But we're getting close.
 
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For those who would rather not rely on strawman arguments, the following is an English version of Raffaele's appeal amendment to Cassazione.

As you will see, the gloves are off. Also, no mention at all of withdrawal of alibi.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Summary-Sollecito-New-Reasons-of-Appeal.docx
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Nice, thanx Bill.

Ha ha, I just got the Bill Williams, nickname (Bill is short for) and full name (Williams), joke. Sorry if it wasn't intended as a joke, but it's still funny to me.

Anyway, thanx again Bill,

d

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Make a case that Raf was in the room, beyond reasonable doubt?

The sample size I think Dr Gill said was the equivalent of 4-5 cells.

If it could have been contaminated by Raf touching the outside door handle, which we know occurred. And carried in by a gloved technician, that seems a plausible route for contamination. Which means building a case beyond reasonable doubt is not possible.

The absence of any footprints in wet blood, in addition to Rudy's proves (imo) that no one else besides Rudy and Meredith were in the room when Meredith was attacked.

There's two issues I guess.

One is the quantity of DNA on the bra clasp itself, and how it might have come to be there.

The second, is the context of the totality of physical evidence in the room.

To make a case, or any argument, as to what happened, seems to me you have to account for everything.

You could prove Rudy Guede guilty, without any of the DNA. But finding Rudy's DNA in the quantity and frequency with which it was found, is wholly consistent with the violent and sexual nature of the act. (Sperm would be Rudy's too, if tested, or if the testing had been disclosed, my guess).

Question from another point of view: Would you make the same case about the 2-4 additional males also found on the bra clasp? Must they all have been in the room?

Your argument effectively precludes secondary, tertiary, or higher levels of transfer. But we're getting close.
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I can't make a case cj, I can't even make a case for the three of them (pretty much virtual strangers to each other) deciding and psychologically agreeing to kill a fourth, and then keeping it secret for years.

To me, that's no different than picking three random people off a bus, and they then get together and decide and psychologically agree to kill a fourth, and then keep it secret for years.

If you took Rudy out of the picture, that would be more probable, but not by much, and that doesn't even include all the other improbables I'd also have to get over in order to believe they are probably guilty, but I'm still willing to be convinced that I'm wrong,

d

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For those who would rather not rely on strawman arguments, the following is an English version of Raffaele's appeal amendment to Cassazione.

As you will see, the gloves are off. Also, no mention at all of withdrawal of alibi.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Summary-Sollecito-New-Reasons-of-Appeal.docx



Alibi comes up 35 times in tha 2025 addition of Raffaele's appeal. In fact, it is even mentioned that Raffaele giving an alibi to Amanda is part of the reason that Raffaele was swept up in this mess in the first place. Never once is there a hint of Raffaele withdrawing his alibi for Amanda.

But he does challenge the judiciary to follow the law. They cam mot simply state that evidence against one is evidence against the other.


I don't see any problem with separation at this stage. If the court confirms guilt for both then Amanda will be able to fight extradition while the case works it's way through ECHR. If the court separates the two and finds Raffaele innocent, he will be unrestrained in his support for Amanda. Separation insures the maximum freedom to continue the fight.


The evidence is simply too strong in support of innocence for this case to persist once it reaches logical minds. Even those espousing guilt in these threads flee when facing the evidence. The verdicts will be overturned. It's only a matter of when.
 
Make a case that Raf was in the room, beyond reasonable doubt?

...


The case is made already in the appeal. Raffaele flew in on wings like a dragonfly, participated in the murder and flew out again without leaving any trace of his presence in the room.
 
Alibi comes up 35 times in tha 2025 addition of Raffaele's appeal. In fact, it is even mentioned that Raffaele giving an alibi to Amanda is part of the reason that Raffaele was swept up in this mess in the first place. Never once is there a hint of Raffaele withdrawing his alibi for Amanda.

But he does challenge the judiciary to follow the law. They cam mot simply state that evidence against one is evidence against the other.


I don't see any problem with separation at this stage. If the court confirms guilt for both then Amanda will be able to fight extradition while the case works it's way through ECHR. If the court separates the two and finds Raffaele innocent, he will be unrestrained in his support for Amanda. Separation insures the maximum freedom to continue the fight.


The evidence is simply too strong in support of innocence for this case to persist once it reaches logical minds. Even those espousing guilt in these threads flee when facing the evidence. The verdicts will be overturned. It's only a matter of when.

The only reason that Raffaele is still in this is because of his alibi for Amanda, as well as 165B.

And 165B had to be gone for 46 days after everything else fell apart against Raffaele. (And Stefanoni had to keep quiet about the allele peaks above 50 RFU on 165B which suggested many minor contributors, all male: thus contamination.)

I was going to grab "Honor Bound" and quote from it how Raffaele put together for himself, while in solitary, the fact that Amanda could not have gone out - despite the suggestion by the cops that she must have. But I thought, "what's the use. The pro-guilt lobby are going to see the dropping of an alibi in a glance of his, or in a photograph."

Besides, they think he's a liar anyway. Good for them. He writes in Honor Bound that at his own interrogation, the cops wrote up a confession for him to sign, a confession which was a mash-up of the events of Oct 31 and Nov 1st, where one night she'd gone out and the other (Nov 1st) where she hadn't. It only slowly dawned on him that he had, in effect, cut Amanda loose by signing - "cut her loose", in the sense that it gave to cops something to leapfrog into her room with - "Raffaele has withdrawn your alibi."

There he is thinking, "Withdrawn her 'alibi'? Why does she need an alibi, she was with me!"

It's only when they threw it all at him, too, that both of them needed an alibi, which was, after all, the point of throwing it all at him. They threw it all at him on the basis of Nike sole-rings which matched nothing to do with him, and no mention of his involvement in Amanda's coerced confessions.

Nothing. Raffaele sits in solitary for 6 months thinking, "what's this got to do with me?" Then he figures out that what they're telling him about Amanda's involvement cannot be true.....

I agree Dan O. This document as a whole is daring Cassazione to convict him on evidence which has nothing to do with him.

And as per usual, the pro-guilt lobby just wants something against Amanda.
 
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That is very important. . . .To this day, neither the Italian legal system or the guilters pro guilt side are interested in Raffaele Sollecito. he is kind of dragged along when all they really want is tie Amanda to a stake, pile up some wood, and light it on fire (literally on the part of some pro guilt posters I have read.)
 
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Is statistical probabilities even a real science? I've heard it said that you can make any statistic say anything you want it to

Statistics is just mathematics. It isn't science. Using statistics with the rules of probability to make predictions or interpret data is also mathematics.

Science is a process that leads to verifiable theories about how things work, like gravity or evolution.

And no, you can't make a statistic say anything you want it to. You can, however, mislead people with data when they're not willing or prepared to look at it closely. The people interpreting polling data for the Romney campaign in 2012 managed to mislead themselves into believing he was going to win that election. They did that by telling themselves that the people being polled in the weeks before the election weren't representative of the people who would actually vote -- in other words, they had the right numbers but they didn't believe them.

That's not a problem with the math.
 
Statistics is just mathematics. It isn't science. Using statistics with the rules of probability to make predictions or interpret data is also mathematics.

Science is a process that leads to verifiable theories about how things work, like gravity or evolution.

And no, you can't make a statistic say anything you want it to. You can, however, mislead people with data when they're not willing or prepared to look at it closely. The people interpreting polling data for the Romney campaign in 2012 managed to mislead themselves into believing he was going to win that election. They did that by telling themselves that the people being polled in the weeks before the election weren't representative of the people who would actually vote -- in other words, they had the right numbers but they didn't believe them.

That's not a problem with the math.
I found that election really interesting, because I was watching the Ladbrokes betting shop. The media need a close race to sell stories, but a betting shop must make money. Ladbrokes convinced me early (put your money where your mouth is) that Romney had only a remote chance of winning.
I was further intrigued by the history of the Mormon church, which made it implausible for a sentient human to let them in the door.
Having said that, New Zealand grieves for 9 children orphaned by a dreadful car crash in New Zealand today.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11415779
 
How interested are you?
IIRC correctly that issue has been addressed at some length here.

For my own part I am interested in where RS gives AK an alibi in his appeal doc.
While I am waiting for a response you could read the thread. I suspect that despite the obvious disparity you will have your answer first ;)

At appeal, one concentrates on matters that have a bearing on one's case. I know you can't understand this however.

But talking of alibis, what do you make of Curatalo's alibi for both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito?

Apparently, they were both in Grimana when the murder took place.

Shall we rely on Curatalo, or call him a booby and throw out his evidence?
 
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Here's our translation of Steffi's letter if anyone wants to have a look. I haven't had a chance to compare it to the fake wiki's.

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...fanoni-Micheli-Pascali-extra-data-request.pdf

It looks very close to theirs.

Isn't this the bit where the money is? The bit that calls her out as a prosecution stooge and condemns her in the eyes of the international forensic scientific community?

"No other information, especially of a computerized nature, such as the log files requested by Professor V. Pascali, is necessary, to a genetic scientist, for the interpretation of analytical data, unless one hypothesizes falsification of the data presented"
Doesn't the good scientist say: "Here's my data; I stand by my work; go ahead and take a look"?

Does one have to hypothesise falsification? Aren't these files sometimes analysed by third parties who find honest error too?

Interesting too that she says that if the judge orders the disclosure then it would be:

"the only ever time in forensic history known to this office"

Does she mean in Italy or anywhere in the world?

Either she's deliberately misleading the judge or else there are countless cases - all criminal cases in fact in which the work of the Forensic Genetics section of the Polizia Scientifica was utilised - where, definitively, guilty or innocent, defendants have not received a fair trial.

This would appear to be extraordinary.
 
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Alibi comes up 35 times in tha 2025 addition of Raffaele's appeal. In fact, it is even mentioned that Raffaele giving an alibi to Amanda is part of the reason that Raffaele was swept up in this mess in the first place. Never once is there a hint of Raffaele withdrawing his alibi for Amanda.

But he does challenge the judiciary to follow the law. They cam mot simply state that evidence against one is evidence against the other.


I don't see any problem with separation at this stage. If the court confirms guilt for both then Amanda will be able to fight extradition while the case works it's way through ECHR. If the court separates the two and finds Raffaele innocent, he will be unrestrained in his support for Amanda. Separation insures the maximum freedom to continue the fight.


The evidence is simply too strong in support of innocence for this case to persist once it reaches logical minds. Even those espousing guilt in these threads flee when facing the evidence. The verdicts will be overturned. It's only a matter of when.

Have you been using Comodi’s time machine again?

Not for quite some time it would appear :)
 
Now that The Cheshire cat has completely disappeared

At appeal, one concentrates on matters that have a bearing on one's case. I know you can't understand this however.

But talking of alibis, what do you make of Curatalo's alibi for both Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito?

Apparently, they were both in Grimana when the murder took place.

Shall we rely on Curatalo, or call him a booby and throw out his evidence?



Macavity is back.

ps Now, now – lets not have any more of this.
 
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the only time in history?

MichaelB,

Thank you; this letter is very revealing: "If your Honor deems it necessary to provide this information (the only ever time in forensic history known to this office), the undersigned is willing as long as the technical consultant for the defense utilizes the same standard parameters of analysis utilized by our laboratories and recognized internationally, otherwise the data would be manipulated in a subjective manner." Compare this with the ABA standards on DNA evidence which explicitly make the raw data discoverable or the many quotes at viewfromwilmington on this subject. And this is more evidence, if it were actually needed, that the defense asked for forensic data but was refused, rendering the trials unfair. How people can continue to defend Stefanoni or the Italian system with respect to discovery is much more mysterious than this case itself ever was.
 
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