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Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Slowvehicle said:
The claim has been bruited about the the textile "experts" were "in on it"; either deceived, or montrously incompetent, or simply dishonest.

Whereas, of course, archaeologists are above reproach.

Or something like that.
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OTOH, if archaelogists had been present, then .....

etc. ad infinitum.

Hans
 
Rincewind said:
I thought that the big show-stopper was that the body proportions were wrong?

So - not a real person anyway...
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There are a few show stoppers. That's what Jabba et al. don't get: if ANY ONE OF THEM is true, the shroud can't possibly be authentic. And that's before we get to theology--meaning that the shroud would, if any one of these lines of evidence is true, be a fraud even if we allow for the Son of God to become man and be murdered by a spear.

catsmate1 said:
Yep, the three labs used a variety of techniques. Including, in some cases, 80°C 5% hydrochloric acid baths for several hours. I don't see any chalk persisting after that treatment.
I'd be surprised if chalk survived the first stage of scraping, hot ether baths and ultrasonics.
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Agreed. Remember high school chemistry: the finer you grind something the more surface area there is and therefore the faster the reaction. Chalk or powdered marble would react orders of magnitude faster than the same amount of marble pre-grinding. Unless it overwhelmed the acid, I'd say it'd likely be gone within a few minutes.
 
Rincewind said:
I thought that the big show-stopper was that the body proportions were wrong?

So - not a real person anyway...
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The "show stopper" is the C14. There is really no way around those C14 dates, unless and until anyone publishes a paper in a front-line science research journal showing that the C14 dates were all wrong by many many centuries.

Until that is ever done, the C14 has put an end to the matter.
 
As has been stated multiple times, I don't even see why a believer would want to cling to the Shroud story. There is clear evidence that is can't be the Shroud. But some will grab on to any possibility to question this evidence, even some bizarre explanations that are less plausible than it being the result of aliens ray-gunning the tomb.

Why? If you believe in the divinity of Christ, than why care if the Shroud might be a fraud (is a fraud)? If it is a fraud, then that doesn't prove the Christ story is wrong. If it is authentic, did you really need that information to believe? And what exactly would it prove about Christ's divinity anyway?
 
Giordano said:
As has been stated multiple times, I don't even see why a believer would want to cling to the Shroud story. There is clear evidence that is can't be the Shroud. But some will grab on to any possibility to question this evidence, even some bizarre explanations that are less plausible than it being the result of aliens ray-gunning the tomb.

Why? If you believe in the divinity of Christ, than why care if the Shroud might be a fraud (is a fraud)? If it is a fraud, then that doesn't prove the Christ story is wrong. If it is authentic, did you really need that information to believe? And what exactly would it prove about Christ's divinity anyway?
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Don't forget the fact that if the Shroud IS the actual burial cloth of Jesus, that means the bible is wrong.

The bible clearly describes a head wrapping separate from any other covering. There is no sign of that in the shroud.
 
Giordano said:
Why? If you believe in the divinity of Christ, than why care if the Shroud might be a fraud (is a fraud)? If it is a fraud, then that doesn't prove the Christ story is wrong. If it is authentic, did you really need that information to believe? And what exactly would it prove about Christ's divinity anyway?
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It has something to do with "relics" which some religious minds seem to need, even though they are often essentially ridiculous like the Holy Foreskins, relics of Jesus' circumcision, of which there were about a dozen alleged examples in various churches in the Middle Ages.
 
abaddon said:
And this is why I do not trust you. You spend inordinate time dissembling as a skeptic, yet often throw the gambit of "but what if".

I'm sorry if it offends you, but as far as I can see, you are attempting to trojan horse your way into the discussion, and you can imagine my opinion of such behaviour.
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Exactly.
 
Craig4 said:
As an archeology student, I'm just dying to know what the hell difference it makes that there was no archeologist present when the sample was taken when there were two textile experts there? What is it you imagine an archeologist could tell you that the experts in textile could not? The shroud is there completely out of context to when and where it was "found". There's no stratigraphy and no other artifacts found with it to look at. There's just not much for an archeologist to study here. There are specialists in textiles and artifact restoration who might add value but more than the textile experts?
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I think it has something to do with the fact that Indiana Jones was an archaeologist, he looked for holy relics, fought the NAZIs, something about aliens.....? I get a little confused after that.
 
Just out of idle curiosity, I wonder whether anyone has ever depicted or proposed that the original design of the Shroud of Turin was that it be hung vertically in the long dimension, supported by a horizontal staff in the center between the rear and front heads. This would permit worshipers to walk around the work of art and view front and rear as if it were the body of Christ floating upwards to Heaven. It would make more sense than displaying it horizontally as it usually has been portrayed. It would also account for the apparently anomalous gravity effects on the hair and the blood.

Placing candles between the sheets would give the images an eerie surreal effect, but would likely have been a fire hazard.
 
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Olowkow said:
Just out of idle curiosity, I wonder whether anyone has ever depicted or proposed that the original design of the Shroud of Turin was that it be hung vertically in the long dimension, supported by a horizontal staff in the center between the rear and front heads. This would permit worshipers to walk around the work of art and view front and rear as if it were the body of Christ floating upwards to Heaven. It would make more sense than displaying it horizontally as it usually has been portrayed. It would also account for the apparently anomalous gravity effects on the hair and the blood.

Placing candles between the sheets would give the images an eerie surreal effect, but would likely have been a fire hazard.
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I would have thought there would be some record had it ever been so displayed, but it is an intriguing idea I never saw before.
 
abaddon said:
LOL the SoT shower curtain, who would buy such a tacky item?
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Shops in the streets near the Vatican would most certainly sell them to anyone who does want one, although that might be too tasteful for these outlets.

Plastic Virgin-shaped bottles full of Holy Water are more their line. And Pope Benedict key rings, when I was last there, though these may have been updated by now.
 
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