Are low homeopathic dilutions safe?

[Milbrandt]

I saw a parody of a homeopathic "remedy" package that was shared on facebook by the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe. I quickly assumed that it was originally a package of Oscillococcinum and commented, like others, that it was 100% sugar.

When I took a closer look however, I saw that it was actually a package of Sinusalia, which is also produced by Boiron. I then checked whether it actually is just sugar (I like to be thorough) and was surprised to find a picture that says it contains a 3C dilution of Belladonna, Sanguinaria Canadensis and Spigelia Anthelmia (all of which are plants): http://www.downtowncdn.com/files/261643/sinusalia2.2.jpg
Boiron's website confirms this dilution: Link

That would mean that there is actually still some of the original substance left in the pills. I reckon there are other homeopathic "remedies" which contain substances in these low dilutions too.

This raises several questions to me (I use belladonna as an example here, but the same questions apply to other substances as well):

1. Does this mean that 1 part in a million (3C) of one tablet is actually from the belladonna plant? It says on their website that it "contains less than 10-8 mg alkaloids per dose" (I assume this refers to the tropane alkaloids, found in belladonna), one dose being two tablets (with a maximum of 6 doses, ie 12 tablets per day).
2. Do they really just put one drop of the diluted substance on a heap of pills and then let it evaporate, like I've heard many times? In that case, could you still actually call this a 3C dilution?
3. Is this even homeopathy? I've heard that dilutions below 12C aren't considered homeopathic by most homeopaths, though some disagree. I guess there is no objective way of telling which version homeopathy is the "real" one.
4. Most importantly: Is this safe? I assume the dose found in one single pill won't be dangerous, but what if someone used it regularly and/or a lot (say, the maximum dose or more) or takes a homeopathic overdose for the 10:23 campaign? Is this a real concern, or is it still too dilute to be dangerous (again, the same question applies to other substances)?

Also, I wonder how well this is regulated. I know that in many countries homeopathic remedies aren't subject to the same rigor of testing as real drugs are. In the USA, the FDA exempts them from "finished product testing for identity and strength". Does that mean that, in the USA, the maximum doses for these remedies aren't determined by the FDA?

 

[MRC_Hans]

In principal, low 'potencies' (below ca. 12C) contain active ingredient, and are potentially harmful.

However, original preparations 'mother tincture' are generally not very concentrated, so even in low dilutions, added to sugar tablets, the actual dose is so low that any effects are likely to be engligible.

The argument for FDA tolerating this (apart from, I presume, $$) is that it is no more harmful than other herbal remedies, which are also tolerated.

Hans

 

[Crossbow]

Sorry, but I am not sure what it is that you are asking ...

Standard homeopathic remedies/medicines are so heavily diluted that they are quite safe.

Therefore, further diluting something that is already so heavily diluted will not make that something any safer.

 

[MRC_Hans]

2. Do they really just put one drop of the diluted substance on a heap of pills and then let it evaporate, like I've heard many times? In that case, could you still actually call this a 3C dilution?

Well, that's what they do.

3. Is this even homeopathy? I've heard that dilutions below 12C aren't considered homeopathic by most homeopaths, though some disagree. I guess there is no objective way of telling which version homeopathy is the "real" one.

No, low potencies are fully recognized by traditional homeopathy.
There is no real one. Homeopathy is nonsense.
It is, however, not real homeopathy if several remedies are mixed. A very basic tenet in homeopathy is "the pure remedy".

4. Most importantly: Is this safe? I assume the dose found in one single pill won't be dangerous, but what if someone used it regularly and/or a lot (say, the maximum dose or more) or takes a homeopathic overdose for the 10:23 campaign? Is this a real concern, or is it still too dilute to be dangerous (again, the same question applies to other substances)?

I would expect the danger is small compared to all the other silly things done in alternative medicine. Homeopathic remedies are 'mostly harmless'.

Hans

 

[Olowkow]

Sorry, but I am not sure what it is that you are asking ...

Standard homeopathic remedies/medicines are so heavily diluted that they are quite safe.

Therefore, further diluting something that is already so heavily diluted will not make that something any safer.

Further dilutions will make the homeopathic remedy stronger, more potent!
Proceed with caution!!!

 

[Giordano]

My understanding is that many homeopathic "remedies" are highly diluted versions that are meant to do the opposite of what the concentrated extract does. That is the concept (although wrong).

Thus many concentrated homeopathic extracts are poisonous. So relatively concentrated ("low" dilutions) homeopathic solutions are potentially dangerous, depending on the concentration. It is only the highly diluted solutions that are mainly (or all) sugar water.

 

[Darwin123]

Further dilutions will make the homeopathic remedy stronger, more potent!
Proceed with caution!!!

And for heaven's sake don't pour any of it into the sink!

 

[Giordano]

And for heaven's sake don't pour any of it into the sink!

Excellent point: I save almost all my water for the toxic waste disposal days at our local sanitation department.

On the other hand, my shower water, representing a diluted extract of me, is so powerfully awesome that I sell it to celebrities for $1000 a bottle.

 

[Milbrandt]

However, original preparations 'mother tincture' are generally not very concentrated, so even in low dilutions, added to sugar tablets, the actual dose is so low that any effects are likely to be engligible.

Standard homeopathic remedies/medicines are so heavily diluted that they are quite safe.

Therefore, further diluting something that is already so heavily diluted will not make that something any safer.

Right, so the original substance is actually already diluted before the 3C dilution process? I've heard this before, but I couldn't find a source that confirms this.

Well, that's what they do.

Again, I've heard before that they just drop the dilution on the pills, but wasn't able to confirm they actually do this. Sometimes I wonder whether that is just a thing that "we" skeptics take at face value. I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though.

No, low potencies are fully recognized by traditional homeopathy.
There is no real one. Homeopathy is nonsense.

I know it is nonsense, but it can still be helpful to know what the different stances on this subject are within the world of homeopathy. So you're saying that no homeopath would say that this isn't homeopathy? (Barring exceptions, you never know what individual homeopaths may say about it).

I would expect the danger is small compared to all the other silly things done in alternative medicine. Homeopathic remedies are 'mostly harmless'.

Hans

I agree, just look at some herbal remedies with high/uncontrolled doses of potentially dangerous substances, sometimes even marketed as being homeopathic (which I know they're not). I just wondered whether that might distract from potential dangerous doses in homeopathic remedies, which shouldn't be ignored simply because other alternative practices are more dangerous. They can be ignored however, if the original substance is already diluted enough and/or if they really just put a drop of the dilution on the pills.
I'm just not convinced that this is always the case when they make these pills.

All I'm really asking for is a source that confirms this, at least regarding the big homeopathic companies like, for instance, Boiron.

 

[Olowkow]

If a company's management believes in BSC* nonsense enough to actually manufacture this homeopathic stuff, how could one reasonably expect the staff to be concerned with sanitation or purity of the water, especially since large amounts of water are wasted in production.

*Guano related reality

 

[MRC_Hans]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzX_rT9a-o

Hans

 

[Olowkow]

And for heaven's sake don't pour any of it into the sink!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzX_rT9a-o

Hans

I'm speechless.
Someone's clearly making a ton of money on this stuff. Nice equipment. Looks all sciency. I wonder where they find qualified PhD chemists.

 

[Milbrandt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWzX_rT9a-o

Hans

I see, that does seem to be how I've heard the process described before. I can't really see how much of the dilution is actually sprayed on it though, and it does seem to me that it is a little more than just a drop of water on a heap of pills. Again: I do know that due to the nature of homeopathy and its high dilutions, it doesn't actually matter how much of it is sprayed on the pellets (in most, if not all cases).
I never knew this process was called triple impregnation though.

Of course, there are other forms of homeopathic remedies than pellets. This website says that "The tablet forms of remedies are usually softer and made of lactose (milk sugar) and the remedy is actually impacted into the tablet and not just covering the outside as with pellets." and "Creams and gels can be in lower potencies usually just a 1X and have crude substance."
Then again, I have no idea what they actually mean by "impacted into" the tablet.

I realize of course that the big companies like Boiron are probably smart enough to keep the concentration of harmful substances in their remedies low enough to be safe. I do wonder about some "hobbyist" homeopaths who might not be so thorough.

All in all, I am more convinced than I was that the concentrations are as low as I've always heard, at least when it comes to Boiron.

 

[Milbrandt]

I'm speechless.
Someone's clearly making a ton of money on this stuff. Nice equipment. Looks all sciency. I wonder where they find qualified PhD chemists.

I know, baffling isn't it?
My main thought when watching this video was what a terrible waste of energy, plants and other resources this is.

My understanding is that many homeopathic "remedies" are highly diluted versions that are meant to do the opposite of what the concentrated extract does.

On the other hand, my shower water, representing a diluted extract of me, is so powerfully awesome that I sell it to celebrities for $1000 a bottle.

Making jokes about homeopathy can be tricky, right?

 

[Giordano]

I know, baffling isn't it?
My main thought when watching this video was what a terrible waste of energy, plants and other resources this is.




Making jokes about homeopathy can be tricky, right?

I was well aware of what I was saying about myself. My kids in particular agree that a highly diluted extract of me would induce "coolness" and attractiveness in any recipient. The more dilute the better.

 

[Milbrandt]

I was well aware of what I was saying about myself. My kids in particular agree that a highly diluted extract of me would induce "coolness" and attractiveness in any recipient. The more dilute the better.

I admire self-deprecation and consider it a great quality. Unfortunately, I have no talent for it whatsoever.

 

[ddt]

I realize of course that the big companies like Boiron are probably smart enough to keep the concentration of harmful substances in their remedies low enough to be safe. I do wonder about some "hobbyist" homeopaths who might not be so thorough.

All in all, I am more convinced than I was that the concentrations are as low as I've always heard, at least when it comes to Boiron.

I would still be careful, though. Anotherr company had a product Zicam on the market which was only pulled after a decade. Its concentration of zinc (1X, so indeed higher than the 3C you're talking about) affected people's smell - about 900 people lost their sense of smell.

 

[Trebuchet]

Here in the USA, homeopathy is not defined, but is exempted from FDA regulation. (Thanks, idiots in congress.) That allows companies like Zicam to offer "homeopathic" preparations with ingredients like "zincum actium, 2x; zincum gluconium, 1x" -- which in English is 1% zinc acetate and 10% zinc gluconate! Hahnemann must be spinning in his grave.

The FDA did manage to get a Zicam nasal spray taken off the market a few years back after a number of users permanently lost their sense of smell.

Edit: Cross posted with ddt. Only one Zicam preparation was taken off the market, there are still lots of others.
http://www.zicam.com/our-products.php

 

[Mojo]

My understanding is that many homeopathic "remedies" are highly diluted versions that are meant to do the opposite of what the concentrated extract does.

No. The basic principle is that a remedy that causes particular symptoms in a healthy volunteer will cure a patient suffering from similar symptoms. 'Provings' (the way homoeopaths figure out which symptoms the remedies are supposed to cause) are carried out using the diluted remedies. Originally Hahnemann 'proved' undiluted remedies, but at this point he was also treating patients with the same undiluted remedies. When he figured out that he was poisoning his patients (took him about 20 years, apparently) he came up with the idea of the dilutions, and also advocated that 'provings' be carried out with the diluted remedies. The dilution is not meant to reverse the effect, but rather (according to aphorism 128 of the Organon) to demonstrate "the full amount of the powers" of the remedies.

 

[Giordano]

No. The basic principle is that a remedy that causes particular symptoms in a healthy volunteer will cure a patient suffering from similar symptoms. 'Provings' (the way homoeopaths figure out which symptoms the remedies are supposed to cause) are carried out using the diluted remedies. Originally Hahnemann 'proved' undiluted remedies, but at this point he was also treating patients with the same undiluted remedies. When he figured out that he was poisoning his patients (took him about 20 years, apparently) he came up with the idea of the dilutions, and also advocated that 'provings' be carried out with the diluted remedies. The dilution is not meant to reverse the effect, but rather (according to aphorism 128 of the Organon) to demonstrate "the full amount of the powers" of the remedies.

I suspect that we are talking past one another here, but I would be happy to be corrected. I learned that homeopathic chemicals that caused certain symptoms at a concentrated dose in a healthy person were proposed at very high dilution to reduce that type of symptom when caused by a disease. In other words, chemicals that cause a fever when dosed in a concentrated form in a healthy person would be thought to reduce fevers (e.g. when caused by the flu) if used at extremely dilute doses. Sort of an idea that extreme dilutions create a negative state that reduces the positive state. This appears to be Wikipedia's concept of homeopathy. Is there a different concept for homeopathy? Of course it is nonsense whatever the concept.