Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I believe thoughtful is the math prof Leila schnieps, forgive the misspelling.

My understanding is that her daughter, and sometimes cowriter, was dating a guy who was friends with Rudy guede.

If so, then lessening guede's guilt by blaming others, may be more an expression of maternal instinct, then the product of 'thoughtful' analysis.

Thoughtful May be too freaked out by her daughters proximity to Rudy socially, to be thinking straight.

The daughter would be in a position to verify/deny the allegations Machiavelli makes about Amanda having some weird relationship with Rudy Guede.

Machiavelli takes one alleged-entry in Amanda's mobile from 2007, and parlays that into Amanda trading sex for drugs. Out of all the lies Rudy himself has told throughout all this, even this is not one of them.

It's interesting to note that on issues like this people who should/could be in the know, just don't bother to comment.
 
The daughter would be in a position to verify/deny the allegations Machiavelli makes about Amanda having some weird relationship with Rudy Guede.

Machiavelli takes one alleged-entry in Amanda's mobile from 2007, and parlays that into Amanda trading sex for drugs. Out of all the lies Rudy himself has told throughout all this, even this is not one of them.

It's interesting to note that on issues like this people who should/could be in the know, just don't bother to comment.

Or as Mach might say, 'create intentional sidetrackings'.
 
The truly stupid thing about Judge Nencini and his attribution of 3 of 5 identities on the bra-clasp, the DNA evidence is this:

Identity #1 is Meredith's.

Identity #2 is a now a destroyed DNA sample identified as from a group of men from which Raffaele cannot be excluded. It does not i.d. Raffaele, it is a group from which he cannot be excluded. Nencini says it is Raffaele's. That's not even what Stefanoni found.

Identity#3, Nencini claims could be Meredith's boyfriend without a single iota of evidence; just Nencini's assertion or speculation.

Identity #4 and #5 Nencini similarly speculates about, saying they could be Meredith's "amica". Even more scandalous than that #4 and #5 have only ever been id'ed as male samples, is this - Nencini claims/speculates without a single iota of evidence.

And further there can now be no further evidence, because Stefanoni destroyed the bra-clasp in storage. The so-called expert actually destroyed evidence while the legal process was still underway!

Rather than ad hominem, try dealing with this. It seems all you have is ad hominem. Good for you.
 
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contamination during centrifugation

My current favorite, though, is "Thoughtful", who fully understands that lab contamination occurs with some frequency (and, I assume that she understands that this happens with extra frequency when the lab is poorly run), but cannot for the life of her bring herself to fathom how the DNA of the actual crime victim can be the contaminant.

Hint: the victim's DNA was perhaps the most intensely analyzed in the history of this lab and constituted a large percentage of the samples studied prior to the knife finding. Carryover contamination is, by definition, a profile from a prior run.

Duh.
Contamination during concentration is one of a number of ways in which profile 36B could have been generated. On a discussion board about DNA sequencing I found this comment: "Instead of evaporating all of this, we bind it all to AMPure beads (2x cut), wash the beads once in 70% ethanol, dry them, and resuspend them in 10.5ul of hyb buffer. It takes all of 5 minutes, and no cross-contamination prone speedvac step!" (highlighting mine)

I also found this comment elsewhere: "Particular care should be taken to avoid contamination of commonly used rotors." Rotors are the portion of the centrifuge that holds the same and spins rapidly. From the context of the article, the author may have been referring to rotors used during organic precipitation of DNA or in post-precipitation drying of the pellet in a speed vac, but I am not sure.
EDT
Nothing that Stefanoni has said or done gives me the slightest bit of confidence that she even understands these sorts of problems, let alone takes precautions to avoid them.
 
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Thoughtful is still working for the defence on the phone calls,

quote:

Hey, 112 call timeline freaks (woohoo jar, mccall!)

There's some information in Sollecito's latest appeal submission, from the previously unavailable phone records of Marco Zaroli and Luca Altieri.

According to Zaroli's phone records, he made four phone calls from the landline at his place at 12:31 (9 minutes, to Altieri), at 12:40 (40 seconds, to Filomena), and then at 12:41 and 12:46 again to Altieri.

Zaroli testified that he then got immediately into his car and drove to pick up Altieri, then to the cottage. He estimated a time of arrival of 12:45-13:00 at the trial (but he didn't know what time the phone calls took place), and mentioned that the trip would have taken around 20 minutes iirc although it probably took a bit less than that.

Still, it cannot have taken him under 6 minutes, so this appears to put an end to the theory that Amanda and Raffaele called 112 while Marco and Luca were distracting the postal police officers.

I cannot believe that Raffaele's defense did not clarify all these issues much earlier in the process.
thoughtful

end quote.

The false wiki is now caught red handed on this, but it will not be amended I bet. Worth keeping an eye on.
 
Thoughtful is still working for the defence on the phone calls,

quote:

Hey, 112 call timeline freaks (woohoo jar, mccall!)

There's some information in Sollecito's latest appeal submission, from the previously unavailable phone records of Marco Zaroli and Luca Altieri.

According to Zaroli's phone records, he made four phone calls from the landline at his place at 12:31 (9 minutes, to Altieri), at 12:40 (40 seconds, to Filomena), and then at 12:41 and 12:46 again to Altieri.

Zaroli testified that he then got immediately into his car and drove to pick up Altieri, then to the cottage. He estimated a time of arrival of 12:45-13:00 at the trial (but he didn't know what time the phone calls took place), and mentioned that the trip would have taken around 20 minutes iirc although it probably took a bit less than that.

Still, it cannot have taken him under 6 minutes, so this appears to put an end to the theory that Amanda and Raffaele called 112 while Marco and Luca were distracting the postal police officers.

I cannot believe that Raffaele's defense did not clarify all these issues much earlier in the process.
thoughtful

end quote.

The false wiki is now caught red handed on this, but it will not be amended I bet. Worth keeping an eye on.

What I wish is that Thoughtful and Fiona would come into a properly moderated forum and debate these things. Then again, if they can "go against the grain" on .ORG and get away with it, maybe there is hope for .ORG yet.
 
My current favorite, though, is "Thoughtful", who fully understands that lab contamination occurs with some frequency (and, I assume that she understands that this happens with extra frequency when the lab is poorly run), but cannot for the life of her bring herself to fathom how the DNA of the actual crime victim can be the contaminant.

Hint: the victim's DNA was perhaps the most intensely analyzed in the history of this lab and constituted a large percentage of the samples studied prior to the knife finding. Carryover contamination is, by definition, a profile from a prior run.

Duh.


"Thoughtful" might be one of the most unintentionally ironic screen names de nos jours :D

The amusing (if it wasn't so serious) thing is that not-very-Thoughtful refers to a piece of bogus statistical "reasoning" with regard to the Kercher DNA trace on the knife. Her "argument" goes along these lines: if Kercher's DNA was on the knife, then what are the odds of it being there by accident/contamination vs the odds of it being there by virtue of the knife having been involved in the murder? She then "argues" that if the odds of the latter are significantly greater than the odds of the former, then one can reasonably conclude that the knife was involved in the murder.

To see such arrant nonsense come out of the mind of a supposed decent mathematician is shocking indeed, and it really speaks to the inability some pure mathematicians have to relate to the real work and to applied problems. After all, there are three fundamental problems with her flawed thesis here: 1) how does one assign an informed probability to contamination/accident? 2) how does one assign an informed probability to the knife being involved in the murder? 3) Even if one could assign informed probabilities to both of the above, what does that actually tell us in the real world about whether the DNA was the result of contamination.accident or murder?

Put the last flaw in another way: the odds of winning the jackpot prize in the UK National Lottery are something around 15 million to one. Yet at least one person (or syndicate) wins the jackpot most weeks. Rare events happen.

The ultimate irony is that not-very-Thoughtful wrote about a similar statistical fallacy in her book: the case of Sally Clark. She was erroneously convicted of murdering two of her children, largely based on the bogus statistical calculations of a prosecution expert witness who had simply (and extremely crassly) multiplied the raw odds of sudden natural child death (cot death syndrome) by itself in order to give the odds of it happening twice to the same mother. The incidence of cot death was reckoned to be around 1 per 8,500 children in the UK, and the prosecution "expert" squared that number to give a probability of 1 in 73 million that two of Clark's children had died of cot death. He then used this bogus statistic to persuade the court that it was somehow far more likely that Clark had murdered her two children - even though he didn't have the appropriate comparator statistic of what proportion of mother kill two of their children.

And regardless of the ins-and-outs of that particular case, the odds are somewhat meaningless when trying to determine what happened. After all, consider if only one child had died. Assuming the 1-in-8,500 statistic for UK cot deaths is broadly correct, this still would make it extremely unlikely - simply on the raw stats - that the child had died of cot death syndrome. And even when we get to attempting a conditional analysis (given that a child has died, what are the odds that it died from cot death vs murder by the mother), we would need somehow to attain a reasonable comparator probability that the mother had murdered her child. And that is near-impossible, given the individual circumstances of such an event.

In summary, not-very-Thoughtful has employed flawed mathematical thinking in her confirmation-biased attempt to show how the knife must have been involved in the murder. It's a very unedifying spectacle to behold.
 
Thoughtful is still working for the defence on the phone calls,

quote:

Hey, 112 call timeline freaks (woohoo jar, mccall!)

There's some information in Sollecito's latest appeal submission, from the previously unavailable phone records of Marco Zaroli and Luca Altieri.

According to Zaroli's phone records, he made four phone calls from the landline at his place at 12:31 (9 minutes, to Altieri), at 12:40 (40 seconds, to Filomena), and then at 12:41 and 12:46 again to Altieri.

Zaroli testified that he then got immediately into his car and drove to pick up Altieri, then to the cottage. He estimated a time of arrival of 12:45-13:00 at the trial (but he didn't know what time the phone calls took place), and mentioned that the trip would have taken around 20 minutes iirc although it probably took a bit less than that.

Still, it cannot have taken him under 6 minutes, so this appears to put an end to the theory that Amanda and Raffaele called 112 while Marco and Luca were distracting the postal police officers.

I cannot believe that Raffaele's defense did not clarify all these issues much earlier in the process.
thoughtful

end quote.

The false wiki is now caught red handed on this, but it will not be amended I bet. Worth keeping an eye on.


The one thing I'm afraid I can agree on is a disbelief as to why the defence teams didn't bring this up in the Massei trial and every time thereafter. I know I keep banging on about my belief that the defence teams fell down very badly in the Massei trial, but this looks like just another prime illustration of that I'm afraid.

(I still shake my head in utter disbelief, for example, in the knowledge that they allowed Curatolo's testimony to take root in the Massei trial, when something as simple and obvious as a quick inquiry to the out-of-town discos as to their opening schedule around the time of the murder (they were open on Halloween, 31 Oct, but all were closed on the following night, the night of the murder, even though Thursday nights were normally operating nights for them) could conclusively verify that there were zero disco buses operating on the night of the murder - thereby at a stroke driving a coach and horses through Curatolo's reliability and credibility.)
 
"Thoughtful" might be one of the most unintentionally ironic screen names de nos jours :D

The amusing (if it wasn't so serious) thing is that not-very-Thoughtful refers to a piece of bogus statistical "reasoning" with regard to the Kercher DNA trace on the knife. Her "argument" goes along these lines: if Kercher's DNA was on the knife, then what are the odds of it being there by accident/contamination vs the odds of it being there by virtue of the knife having been involved in the murder? She then "argues" that if the odds of the latter are significantly greater than the odds of the former, then one can reasonably conclude that the knife was involved in the murder.

To see such arrant nonsense come out of the mind of a supposed decent mathematician is shocking indeed, and it really speaks to the inability some pure mathematicians have to relate to the real work and to applied problems. After all, there are three fundamental problems with her flawed thesis here: 1) how does one assign an informed probability to contamination/accident? 2) how does one assign an informed probability to the knife being involved in the murder? 3) Even if one could assign informed probabilities to both of the above, what does that actually tell us in the real world about whether the DNA was the result of contamination.accident or murder?

Put the last flaw in another way: the odds of winning the jackpot prize in the UK National Lottery are something around 15 million to one. Yet at least one person (or syndicate) wins the jackpot most weeks. Rare events happen.

The ultimate irony is that not-very-Thoughtful wrote about a similar statistical fallacy in her book: the case of Sally Clark. She was erroneously convicted of murdering two of her children, largely based on the bogus statistical calculations of a prosecution expert witness who had simply (and extremely crassly) multiplied the raw odds of sudden natural child death (cot death syndrome) by itself in order to give the odds of it happening twice to the same mother. The incidence of cot death was reckoned to be around 1 per 8,500 children in the UK, and the prosecution "expert" squared that number to give a probability of 1 in 73 million that two of Clark's children had died of cot death. He then used this bogus statistic to persuade the court that it was somehow far more likely that Clark had murdered her two children - even though he didn't have the appropriate comparator statistic of what proportion of mother kill two of their children.

And regardless of the ins-and-outs of that particular case, the odds are somewhat meaningless when trying to determine what happened. After all, consider if only one child had died. Assuming the 1-in-8,500 statistic for UK cot deaths is broadly correct, this still would make it extremely unlikely - simply on the raw stats - that the child had died of cot death syndrome. And even when we get to attempting a conditional analysis (given that a child has died, what are the odds that it died from cot death vs murder by the mother), we would need somehow to attain a reasonable comparator probability that the mother had murdered her child. And that is near-impossible, given the individual circumstances of such an event.

In summary, not-very-Thoughtful has employed flawed mathematical thinking in her confirmation-biased attempt to show how the knife must have been involved in the murder. It's a very unedifying spectacle to behold.

There was also her claim that all one needed to do was repeat the tests that Stefanoni had done, and one would come to a more precise interpretation of the results, such precision would increase each time the test was repeated.

I could not make head-nor-tail of what she was talking about - but will admit that others seemed to think she was on to something. To me it looked like she wanted to repeat tests on stuff that had long since been destroyed - the bra-clasp and the Meredith-material claimed to have been on the knife.

To me it looked like what she was wanting was to simply repeat the analysis that Stefanoni had done - which, of course, would perhaps entail Stefanoni to release the electronic data files.

If I have this wrong, I will retract. Thoughtful did have the decency once to go on to IIP and argue her case. IIRC no one, really, could make head-nor-tail of what she was actually arguing for.

However, she is one who is not afraid to go against the grain, as witnessed by her belief that Raffaele had called 112 before the arrival of the postal police. At some level she's willing to accept evidence, even if it points against the grain she'd like.

The baffling thing is the numbers of people who respond within closed-moderated boards with all sorts of ad hominem..... and simply do not engage the evidence at all.
 
The one thing I'm afraid I can agree on is a disbelief as to why the defence teams didn't bring this up in the Massei trial and every time thereafter. I know I keep banging on about my belief that the defence teams fell down very badly in the Massei trial, but this looks like just another prime illustration of that I'm afraid.
(I still shake my head in utter disbelief, for example, in the knowledge that they allowed Curatolo's testimony to take root in the Massei trial, when something as simple and obvious as a quick inquiry to the out-of-town discos as to their opening schedule around the time of the murder (they were open on Halloween, 31 Oct, but all were closed on the following night, the night of the murder, even though Thursday nights were normally operating nights for them) could conclusively verify that there were zero disco buses operating on the night of the murder - thereby at a stroke driving a coach and horses through Curatolo's reliability and credibility.)

Once again, one recalls what Barbie Latza Nadeau told CNN from Perugia on the night of the Dec 2009 convictions. "The prosecution was weak, but the defence was weaker. This could very well be overturned at appeal."

It's the mistake one makes when they think their innocence is obvious. It ignores the agenda the other side might have. The defence(s) made the same mistake about people like Curatolo, thinking that it was obvious the ridiculousness of what Curatolo was claiming, and.....

...... further it should have been completely transparent the agenda of the prosecution to rely on so many "witnesses" who'd been recruited months after the events of the crime - Nara and Quintavalle also come to mind.

Defence lawyers already told the Mellas's that they had to be careful in accusing the PM of things.... the defence lawyers seemed to be taking their own advice, thinking that the obvious agenda of Mignini and Co. would be, well...... obvious.
 
The truly stupid thing about Judge Nencini and his attribution of 3 of 5 identities on the bra-clasp, the DNA evidence is this:

Identity #1 is Meredith's.

Identity #2 is a now a destroyed DNA sample identified as from a group of men from which Raffaele cannot be excluded. It does not i.d. Raffaele, it is a group from which he cannot be excluded. Nencini says it is Raffaele's. That's not even what Stefanoni found.

Identity#3, Nencini claims could be Meredith's boyfriend without a single iota of evidence; just Nencini's assertion or speculation.

Identity #4 and #5 Nencini similarly speculates about, saying they could be Meredith's "amica". Even more scandalous than that #4 and #5 have only ever been id'ed as male samples, is this - Nencini claims/speculates without a single iota of evidence.

And further there can now be no further evidence, because Stefanoni destroyed the bra-clasp in storage. The so-called expert actually destroyed evidence while the legal process was still underway!

Rather than ad hominem, try dealing with this. It seems all you have is ad hominem. Good for you.


Who is this post directed at Bill ?

Let’s hope it’s not someone who understands the distinction between Y chromosome and autosomal typing or you may not like the response :)
 
Who is this post directed at Bill ?

Let’s hope it’s not someone who understands the distinction between Y chromosome and autosomal typing or you may not like the response :)

Let's start with you.

Explain the difference. After that, we can then address Nencini just making things up out of thin air. But have a go at the issue which interests you.
 
Nonsense? The evidence quite clearly demonstrates that the knife was clean of all contamination. How many times does Stefanony have to write "Too Low" to make this clear?

To be more precise, the knife blade was certainly free of Meredith's DNA from contact with her and probably free of contamination by Meredith's DNA. The contamination with Meredith's DNA was likely from some source in Stefanoni's lab entering the sample during laboratory processing, which included a number of steps that could lead to contamination, including a concentration step that apparently often a concern for contamination.

On the Qubit fluorometer, a measurement of "too low" is of course not distinguishable from one of "no DNA present".
 
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We are Marshall

From the forensics laboratory at Marshall University:
PCR Laboratory
This laboratory has been specifically designed for DNA analysis using PCR amplification. Due to the fact that millions of copies of DNA are generated from an initial sample, contamination is always a concern. Our PCR Laboratory has negative air pressure, which means none of the air can escape into the hallway and contamination is prevented. link

From the ENFSI guidelines:
Post PCR rooms should be under pressure or have an airlock space between the lobby and the room itself or be geographically separated from the rest of the laboratory areas (i.e. DNA extraction, Pre-PCR, etc.).

Does DNA fly? I report; you decide.
 
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Who is this post directed at Bill ?

Let’s hope it’s not someone who understands the distinction between Y chromosome and autosomal typing or you may not like the response :)



Let's start with you.

Explain the difference. After that, we can then address Nencini just making things up out of thin air. But have a go at the issue which interests you.


Oh no Bill :) – I’m not going to waste my time on basic stuff like this 4 yrs down the road.
Why don’t you ask the ‘DNA experts’ like Dan O, Chris_Halkides or Diocletus to help out.
See if they agree with you; if they don’t they can explain your error & if they do you can all work together to get to the bottom of it. If after a week it’s still a mystery I will post a link or 2 to where it was explained on these threads. I am a layman in this field as are you four but it’s not complicated.


I did tell you that you wouldn’t like it but that seems fair to me.
 
From the forensics laboratory at Marshall University:
PCR Laboratory
This laboratory has been specifically designed for DNA analysis using PCR amplification. Due to the fact that millions of copies of DNA are generated from an initial sample, contamination is always a concern. Our PCR Laboratory has negative air pressure, which means none of the air can escape into the hallway and contamination is prevented. link

From the ENFSI guidelines:
Post PCR rooms should be under pressure or have an airlock space between the lobby and the room itself or be geographically separated from the rest of the laboratory areas (i.e. DNA extraction, Pre-PCR, etc.).

Does DNA fly? I report; you decide.

Why wouldn't it fly like all the other molecules?
 
There was also her claim that all one needed to do was repeat the tests that Stefanoni had done, and one would come to a more precise interpretation of the results, such precision would increase each time the test was repeated.

I could not make head-nor-tail of what she was talking about - but will admit that others seemed to think she was on to something. To me it looked like she wanted to repeat tests on stuff that had long since been destroyed - the bra-clasp and the Meredith-material claimed to have been on the knife.

To me it looked like what she was wanting was to simply repeat the analysis that Stefanoni had done - which, of course, would perhaps entail Stefanoni to release the electronic data files.


Well what she was arguing there was that at the time of the Conti/Vecchiotti review of the DNA evidence for the Hellmann appeal, advances in low template analysis meant that it might - theoretically - be possible to get a positive result for Kercher's DNA from the knife, even though not-a-real-doctor Stefanoni had used all the testable (in 2007) material up in her original assay.

She was saying that if a new, even more sensitive test also came back as a positive for Kercher, then this would bolster the original Stefanoni result and (crucially) that it would automatically therefore bolster the case against Knox and Sollecito.

The problem is this: while the first part of the above paragraph is broadly correct, the second (italicised) part most certainly is not. Hellmann had already seen more than enough to throw into terminal doubt the entirety of low-template DNA evidence on the knife. The combination of the shockingly inept way it was handled in evidence, plus the shoddy and improper way it was treated in Stefanoni's laboratory, gave more than enough credible pathway for contamination. Therefore, even if a more sensitive test "confirmed" Kercher's DNA, that result would in effect mean nothing in terms of the only important factor: the question of whether such a result would constitute probative evidence against Knox and/or Sollecito.

That's Schneps' fundamental problem: she seemingly cannot see things in any sort of wider real-world context. In a strictly statistical context, her argument here has superficial merit. But when it's viewed correctly alongside the contamination problem (and the exponential increase of that problem with more and more sensitive tests....), it starts to look embarrassingly second-rate and flawed. It's a bit like Balding's analysis of Sollecito's DNA on the bra clasp hook - though to Balding's credit (and seemingly beyond the intellect of most pro-guilt commentators), he pointedly noted the difference between the question of the statistical probability of Sollecito's DNA showing up in the electropherograms of the bra clasp on the one hand, and the question of how and why that result might have been obtained.

And in a very similar manner, it wouldn't matter one iota if an even more sensitive test on the bra clasp could "confirm" Sollecito's DNA there: if there's a real possibility of contamination, then any further testing is wholly moot, just as it was with the knife. Oh but of course the bra clasp can't be tested again in any event can it: the dissembling, obstructive, incompetent not-a-doctor Stefanoni destroyed it by letting it rust until it rotted, didn't she........



However, she is one who is not afraid to go against the grain, as witnessed by her belief that Raffaele had called 112 before the arrival of the postal police. At some level she's willing to accept evidence, even if it points against the grain she'd like.

The baffling thing is the numbers of people who respond within closed-moderated boards with all sorts of ad hominem..... and simply do not engage the evidence at all.


Given a simple binary-outcome pure-logic situation with an obvious "yes or no" answer, she's good at that. And there's no way to ever have reconciled all the available, reliable evidence on that issue (even before the latest phone records revelations) to reach any other result than that Knox's and Sollecito's phone calls took place significantly before the postal police (and the others) arrived. As you say, though, it's amazing to observe how so many pro-guilt commentators' internal (and group-reinforced and validated) prejudices and confirmation biases leave them "unable to compute" when evidence contrary to their point of view turns up :)
 
Oh no Bill :) – I’m not going to waste my time on basic stuff like this 4 yrs down the road.
Why don’t you ask the ‘DNA experts’ like Dan O, Chris_Halkides or Diocletus to help out.
See if they agree with you; if they don’t they can explain your error & if they do you can all work together to get to the bottom of it. If after a week it’s still a mystery I will post a link or 2 to where it was explained on these threads. I am a layman in this field as are you four but it’s not complicated.


I did tell you that you wouldn’t like it but that seems fair to me.

Answer me this, platonov.... which you will not. You'll instead opt for the cute reply (read: evasion).

Should a DNA analyst read a peak above 50 RFU on an electrophoretic graph as stutter or as an allele?

On this rides the whole thing..... that there were extra-minor contributors to the bra-clasp Exhibit 165B, and that they were all male. I'll give you a hint, neither Chieffi from Cassazione nor Nencini from the second-grade, Florence trial address this. Indeed, unlike Massei, Nencini's court seems to accept minor contributors other than Raffaele, and he even speculates (with no evidence to back him up) as to the owners!

If you do not want to attempt the answer to this, perhaps someone else will.

*******

ETA - C&V's report proves that Massei erred in not calling Stefanoni's analysis, "suspect centred". Indeed, despite tantalizing hints in the Massei report about "minor contributors" (plural), the only issue of interest to Massei was the likelihood that Raffaele was one of those minor contributors.

C&V's report blows that thinking/ruling out of the water. Indeed, the more likely that Raffaele is on that clasp, the more likely ALSO that three further male contributors are on that clasp.

Chieffi is silent on this, returning to Massei's reasons - the likelihood of Raffaele being on the clasp. Chieffi virtually ignores the issue of other "minor contributors" (and why not, his was not a fact-finding court!) Stunningly, Nencini wades into those waters, with his fiction that the extra contributors might be Meredith's boyfriend and two of her amicas. That alone should be a reason why Cassazione 25 March should reverse/annul Nencini.
 
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Why wouldn't it fly like all the other molecules?


Exactly. It can fly, and it does fly. Albeit in minuscule quantities. And that's the whole point. When labs were/are working only with larger PCR quantities, any such airborne contamination could be ignored, because the quantum of potential contamination material was negligible compared to the quantum of DNA being looked for. And even slightly dirty machines were not a problem, for the same reason.

But...... when DNA testing has moved into the low-template and ultra-low-template range, all of a sudden the sensitivity of the testing has moved into a range where airborne (and machine-borne) contamination suddenly is a very real problem indeed. Even the minuscule amounts carried in the air (or minute contamination traces on the machines or other equipment) can now be more than enough to adversely influence low-template tests.

Which is, of course, precisely why the strict and exacting protocols that Chris quoted above are absolutely mandatory when a lab is working at the low-template level. It's arguable, in fact, that the absence of such protocols (airlocks, separation and/or positive/negative pressure test areas, plus extremely strict equipment sterilisation protocols) should, in and of itself, disqualify a lab from submitting admissible low-template DNA work to the courts.

I always chuckle when certain pro-guilt commentators seek to misdirect with statements along the lines of "Oh, the courts in the UK, New York State, countries x, y and z etc, all rule that low-template DNA is admissible in evidence". Those commentators always (strangely :D ) forget to add the critical point that such low-template evidence is admissible, but only under specific conditions - chiefly those related to the super-strict protocols that MUST be applied when collecting, storing, transporting and testing samples in the low-template range.
 
According to Zaroli's phone records, he made four phone calls from the landline at his place at 12:31 (9 minutes, to Altieri), at 12:40 (40 seconds, to Filomena), and then at 12:41 and 12:46 again to Altieri.

Zaroli testified that he then got immediately into his car and drove to pick up Altieri, then to the cottage. He estimated a time of arrival of 12:45-13:00 at the trial (but he didn't know what time the phone calls took place), and mentioned that the trip would have taken around 20 minutes iirc although it probably took a bit less than that.

...


I'm trying to update my comprehensive timeline and having a little difficulty reconciling this info. Would you be able to provide the exact details from the sources? Are Filomena's phone records also available?
 
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