DOJ: Ferguson PD descrimination against blacks is routine

[jimbob]

Over on the officer forums they've apparently decided that the real problem is black people committing more crimes and that the reason searches of black people's cars are less likely to turn up contraband is because black people are better at hiding drugs.

How do they dismiss the remaining 100 pages of the report?

 

[jimbob]

You know, the more I think about this the less plausible it sounds.

Why would the residential population be the baseline? Wouldn't the relevant metric be the proportion of drivers on the roads?

I have no idea what the Ferguson area is like, so what is the racial makeup of the surrounding towns? If they are mostly white then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson to be white in a higher proportion than the population of Ferguson. If they are mostly black then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson more likely to be black than the population of Ferguson, and thus blacks would be more likely to be pulled over without any racial discrimination occurring.

After all, drivers don't just drive in the town they live in. Particularly in tightly-packed small suburbs in a metropolitan area a driver likely drives through many towns during their daily commute.

So, I don't think this statistic is really relevant without knowing more information than is available so far.

eta: one other possibility is age demographics. If the whites are on average 60 years old and blacks are on average 30 years old (I'm talking about drivers here) then blacks are more likely to get stopped more simply because younger drivers are more reckless, prone to speeding, etc. And given how quickly Ferguson's race demographics has changed in the last 20 years such a large disparity wouldn't surprise me at all, as younger people are more likely to move frequently while older people tend to stay put.

St Louis city is 47.9% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29510.html

St Louis county is 23.7% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29189.html


Ferguson is 67.4% black

If anything, out of town drivers would be more likely to be white, flattering FPD

 

[Walter Ego]

Over on the officer forums they've apparently decided that the real problem is black people committing more crimes and that the reason searches of black people's cars are less likely to turn up contraband is because black people are better at hiding drugs.

ftfy

 

[jimbob]

You know, the more I think about this the less plausible it sounds.

Why would the residential population be the baseline? Wouldn't the relevant metric be the proportion of drivers on the roads?

I have no idea what the Ferguson area is like, so what is the racial makeup of the surrounding towns? If they are mostly white then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson to be white in a higher proportion than the population of Ferguson. If they are mostly black then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson more likely to be black than the population of Ferguson, and thus blacks would be more likely to be pulled over without any racial discrimination occurring.

After all, drivers don't just drive in the town they live in. Particularly in tightly-packed small suburbs in a metropolitan area a driver likely drives through many towns during their daily commute.

So, I don't think this statistic is really relevant without knowing more information than is available so far.

eta: one other possibility is age demographics. If the whites are on average 60 years old and blacks are on average 30 years old (I'm talking about drivers here) then blacks are more likely to get stopped more simply because younger drivers are more reckless, prone to speeding, etc. And given how quickly Ferguson's race demographics has changed in the last 20 years such a large disparity wouldn't surprise me at all, as younger people are more likely to move frequently while older people tend to stay put.

St Louis city is 47.9% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29510.html

St Louis county is 23.7% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29189.html


Ferguson is 67.4% black

If anything, out of town drivers would be more likely to be white, flattering FPD

Just got to this section of the PDF - I'm only on page 64

'FPD reported 11,610 vehicle stops between October 2012 and October 2014. African Americans accounted for 85%, or 9,875, of those stops, despite making up only 67% of the population. White individuals made up 15%, or 1,735, of stops during that period, despite representing 29% of the population. These differences indicate that FPD traffic stop practices may disparately impact black drivers.³⁹ Even setting aside the question of whether there are racial disparities in FPD’s traffic stop practices, however, the data collected during those stops reliably shows statistically significant racial disparities in the outcomes people receive after being stopped. Unlike with vehicle stops, assessing the disparate impact of post-stop outcomes—such as the rate at which stops result in citations, searches, or arrests—is not dependent on population data or on assumptions about differential offending rates by race; instead, the enforcement actions imposed against stopped black drivers are compared directly to the enforcement actions imposed against stopped white drivers.'​

'39 While there are limitations to using basic population data as a benchmark when evaluating whether there are racial disparities in vehicle stops, it is sufficiently reliable here. In fact, in Ferguson, black drivers might account for less of the driving pool than would be expected from overall population rates because a lower proportion of blacks than whites is at or above the minimum driving age. See 2009-2013 5-Year American Community Survey, U.S. Census Bureau (2015) (showing higher proportion of black population in under-15 and under-19 age categories than white population). Ferguson officials have told us that they believe that black drivers account for more of the driving pool than their 67% share of the population because the driving pool also includes drivers traveling from neighboring municipalities—many of which have higher black populations than Ferguson. Our investigation casts doubt upon that claim. An analysis of zip-code data from the 53,850 summonses FPD issued from January 1, 2009 to October 14, 2014, shows that the African-American makeup for all zip codes receiving a summons—weighted by population size and the number of summonses received by people from that zip code—is 63%. Thus, there is substantial reason to believe that the share of drivers in Ferguson who are black is in fact lower than population data suggests.'
ETA:

WTAF:

Notably, on 14 occasions FPD listed the only reason for an arrest following a traffic stop as “resisting arrest.” In all 14 of those cases, the person arrested was black.

 

[Newtons Bit]

It's almost like the report is thorough...

 

[JoeMorgue]

The concept of arresting someone for the sole crime of resisting arrest is just weird.

Especially since in most jurisdiction "resisting" doesn't have to be violent or even physical. It can literally just be arguing with the LEO about the "why" of you being arrested.

Bob: You're under arrest.
Ted: Why? What did I do?
Bob: You're under arrest for resisting arrest.

I'm not sure I understand the logical, legal, or constitutional justification for being able to arrest someone for resisting arrest without being able to justify why they were being arrested in the first place.

It's a legal Terminator-esque predestination paradox.

 

[Monketi Ghost]

... Especially since, if one is resisting arrest, one is already being arrested for a crime.
I know, it seems counterintuitive. If a person resists arrest, I think the police should just let them go.

 

[jimbob]

The concept of arresting someone for the sole crime of resisting arrest is just weird.

Especially since in most jurisdiction "resisting" doesn't have to be violent or even physical. It can literally just be arguing with the LEO about the "why" of you being arrested.

Bob: You're under arrest.
Ted: Why? What did I do?
Bob: You're under arrest for resisting arrest.

I'm not sure I understand the logical, legal, or constitutional justification for being able to arrest someone for resisting arrest without being able to justify why there were being arrested.

ETA: I think if one looks at the rest of the DoJ report, one can see the reason for this.

Maybe they were trying amendment bingo: "I've done the fourth, first and fifth - can you get the fourteenth?"

 

[dudalb]

Look, I admit I tend to give police forces the benefit of the doubt...and I think I have made clear in my posting history my dislike of the "anti cop" attitude which some people here have....but the evidence that the Ferguson PD is totally screwed up is so strong that I have to think that people defending it are suffering from "confirmtation bias" big time.

 

[jimbob]

... Especially since, if one is resisting arrest, one is already being arrested for a crime.
I know, it seems counterintuitive. If a person resists arrest, I think the police should just let them go.

I don't know if you are being sarcastic here.

In fourteen cases the only reason given for the arrest was "resisting arrest".

Everyone can understand that there could be an additional offence.

I'm almost surprised that there weren't any arrests for "failing to comply with an unlawful order"...

 

[JoeMorgue]

Even if there is legal validity to arresting someone solely on a "resisting arrest charge" that surely raises some red flags as to procedures.

At the absolute, 100% best case, total benefit of the doubt scenario it represents a massive waste of police and procedural time.

Even absent everything else that's been brought up in this report a police force shouldn't be wasting its time arresting people that wouldn't require being arrested if the initial encounter hadn't happened.

 

[JoeMorgue]

For me I think the big issues are:

- The obvious racial profiling.
- The use of the police force as a revenue generating force for the city.
- Lack of training of deescalation procedures (i.e. in nearly all the cases cited in the report the police missed multiple opportunities to not make the situation worse)
- Lack of training on the proper use of less lethal weaponry (specifically Tasers), the proper use of Police Canine Units, and proper takedown and restraint techniques.
- A police that very possibly is under funded, under manned, and over stretched.
- A total lack of Federal, State, or higher jurisdiction oversight that should have caught these problems.

 

[Newtons Bit]

it seems prudent to me to outlaw police performance being determined from the quantity of citations issued.

In Ferguson, much of the abuse comes from the city pushing the police to generate more revenue.

In NYC, the police management gave their police officers quotas on the number of weapons found a month, which has in turned led to a large number of people being arrested for carrying a completely legal pocket knife. All because some politicians want to be able to quote how great they are at finding weapons.

 

[jimbob]

it seems prudent to me to outlaw police performance being determined from the quantity of citations issued.

In Ferguson, much of the abuse comes from the city pushing the police to generate more revenue.

Yes -it's just asking for problems.

For me I think the big issues are:

- The obvious racial profiling.
- The use of the police force as a revenue generating force for the city.
- Lack of training of deescalation procedures (i.e. in nearly all the cases cited in the report the police missed multiple opportunities to not make the situation worse)
- Lack of training on the proper use of less lethal weaponry (specifically Tasers), the proper use of Police Canine Units, and proper takedown and restraint techniques.
- A police that very possibly is under funded, under manned, and over stretched.
- A total lack of Federal, State, or higher jurisdiction oversight that should have caught these problems.

True - it also is not limited to Ferguson

Hazelwood at least seems rather iffy too.

There is evidence that the Court Clerk and a City of Hazelwood clerk “fixed” at least 12 tickets at each other’s request, and that the Court Clerk successfully sought help with a ticket from a clerk in St. Ann. And in April 2011, a court administrator in the City of Pine Lawn emailed the Ferguson Court Clerk to have a warrant recalled for a person applying for a job with the Pine Lawn Police Department. The court administrator explained that “[a]fter he gets the job, he will have money to pay off his fines with Ferguson.” The Court Clerk recalled the warrant and and issued a new court date for more than two months after the request was made.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Ferguson judge behind aggressive fines policy owes $170,000 in unpaid taxes

The judge in Ferguson, Missouri, who is accused of fixing traffic tickets for himself and colleagues while inflicting a punishing regime of fines and fees on the city’s residents, also owes more than $170,000 in unpaid taxes.

Ronald J Brockmeyer, whose court allegedly jailed impoverished defendants unable to pay fines of a few hundred dollars, has a string of outstanding debts to the US government dating back to 2007, according to tax filings obtained by the Guardian from authorities in Missouri.

Brockmeyer, 70, was this week singled out by Department of Justice investigators as being a driving force behind Ferguson’s strategy of using its municipal court to aggressively generate revenues. The policy has been blamed for a breakdown in relations between the city’s overwhelmingly white authorities and residents, two-thirds of whom are African American.

Full story at: http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/06/ferguson-judge-owes-unpaid-taxes-ronald-brockmeyer

 

[Aepervius]

Two questions does anyone believe it is possible the majority of the discrepancy in arrests etc could be because most of the crimes are committed by African-Americans in Ferguson? Or do you have to be racist to even think it is a possibility?

I have lived in what american call it a racially loaded area. In my experience the local white young guys were as much likely to do bad stuff. but they were far far more likely to not be searched, suspected, or disturbed.

Unless you got a real statistic on *real* crime happening without getting caught, I tend to think the white guys simply get off easy on it.


In fact look at the search rate / arrest : 47/36=1.3 and 562/483=1.16

What i think like in the case I observed de-situ, is that both white and black have similar small crime rate, but black being searched are getting caught more often.

Anyway I do not see your proposition to be demonstrated with only the data present, which can (and IMHO is) an artefact of the selection bias on who to search.

 

[Aepervius]

Look, I admit I tend to give police forces the benefit of the doubt...and I think I have made clear in my posting history my dislike of the "anti cop" attitude which some people here have....but the evidence that the Ferguson PD is totally screwed up is so strong that I have to think that people defending it are suffering from "confirmtation bias" big time.

I did .... until I started to know and frequent a group of policemen.

Bottom line : they were your average person. Neither paragon of virtue, nor paragon of intellectuality.

Would you trust your average person ? I do not.

 

[JoeMorgue]

When we are faced with social issues of this level I try to look at it simply as a problem them to be rather then focus on where the blame lies (or worst still start immediately obsessing over which ideological side hast to accept blame and which gets to take credit.)

I fully admit that a factor, a factor that in no way excuses the FPD but a factor none the less, is that the FPD probably was undermanned, over worked, and had to deal with a crime ridden and extremely hostile to the police (if entirely justified) populace. One side being the villain doesn't make the other side the hero.

I hope either the future FDP or whatever Law Enforcement Organization replaces it receives the tools, manpower, and training they need I don't feel that that contradicts anything else I've said in this thread.

 

[Walter Ego]

Look, I admit I tend to give police forces the benefit of the doubt...and I think I have made clear in my posting history my dislike of the "anti cop" attitude which some people here have....but the evidence that the Ferguson PD is totally screwed up is so strong that I have to think that people defending it are suffering from "confirmtation bias" big time.

There's a reason cops are called...

PIGS

... and you don't have to be black to know why.

 

[dudalb]

There's a reason cops are called...

PIGS

... and you don't have to be black to know why.

Thanks for demonstating exactly the kind of blind hatred toward the police I despise. People who blindly demonize the police are just as bad and stupid as those who blindly support them no matter what.

BTW the 60's ended about 50 years ago.....