Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[tsig]

When the guilt-folk don't have anything to say about the subject, they play the ad hominem card. Then they arrest the ad homenim card. Then they try to take the conversation from the issue at hand into those four places.

It's all they have, really.

Oh well, with few exceptions, the pro-guilt commentators tend to be unpleasant, vindictive, misanthropic bullies. As far as I'm concerned, the ugly combination of a) the personal attacks on anyone connected to the pro-acquittal point of view, and b) the maudlin, cloying cloak of fake morality by claiming to be "doing it all for Meredith" - a person whom none of them ever met and with whom they had no connection whatsoever before they started commentating on this case - is a huge red flag for me. As I've said before, I believe many of them are using this case to project their own failings and victimisations, as well as a nasty streak of schadenfreude and a pathetic need for group approval (and I sincerely think that this would make a fascinating sociological/psychological study area in itself).

Humm...

 

[Planigale]

One of the things one sometimes notices in science are results that are too good. People get perfect results and you just know they aren't right. An example of this is the footprint analysis of the bathmat. If you look up about footprint analysis you find that footprints vary in size. They vary by 2 - 5 mm depending on the dimension you measure. They vary from morning to evening. They vary depending on whether the print is standing or walking. They vary depending on how much weight you put on the foot. Measuring footprints is not easy, the dimensions are somewhat subjective so there is some inevitable variation in measurements of about a mm. So what do we find if we look at the footprint analysis.

A B
30 30
39 37
99 99
50 57
39 40
28 28 8 8 99 99 92 92 75 75 40 40
43 42

8/12 measures are identical. Including those only 1 mm difference 10/12 are identical. This would be unlikely for footprints of the same person taken at different times. If you consider these footprints are formed in different ways one with viscous ink on a firm non absorbent surface, the other on an absorbent yielding surface by bloodstained water, the likelihood that footprints from one individual would be so similar in dimensions seems very unlikely. These results are too good. We are all clear about use of callunia charges to suppress criticism of officials; so I want to be clear that all I imply is these results are extremely unlikely, not that there was any fraud involved in the measuring. I am sure the experts concerned were entirely neutral in their measurements, entirely objective, not at all suspect orientated; just very very lucky that all the factors managed to cancel themselves out resulting in 10/12 dimensions being identical.

 

[Samson]

Oh well, with few exceptions, the pro-guilt commentators tend to be unpleasant, vindictive, misanthropic bullies. As far as I'm concerned, the ugly combination of a) the personal attacks on anyone connected to the pro-acquittal point of view, and b) the maudlin, cloying cloak of fake morality by claiming to be "doing it all for Meredith" - a person whom none of them ever met and with whom they had no connection whatsoever before they started commentating on this case - is a huge red flag for me. As I've said before, I believe many of them are using this case to project their own failings and victimisations, as well as a nasty streak of schadenfreude and a pathetic need for group approval (and I sincerely think that this would make a fascinating sociological/psychological study area in itself).

The PMFer who just wrote this

I tell you this because i translate from English to French for European TVs and often stuff about tyranny vs. democracy, rights of immigrants, gays, Jews and Muslims, neo-nazis and freedom of expression, etc. etc. many simplistic ideas hurt my intelligence, and i often fight against the impulse of distorting or even stating the contrary on the sly; you'd have to have experience in both language for 20 years to notice the falsification. The same can be said about a lawyer who has decided to sell his client to the judge because he can't stand defending a scum, the scum wouldn't see it coming.
Now as a professional, the reason why you don't cheat is because it uses you up on the short term, weakens your position on the long term.

is a hard core guilter.

How?

 

[platonov]

Every cloud

In the time I have spent watching the case, Fiona is the only name that qualifies as an exception.

So, just to take the 2 names I mentioned, you regard platonov and Mach as
unpleasant, vindictive, misanthropic bullies.

I’m crushed.

I will console myself with the knowledge that no other members here share your opinion.

 

[Desert Fox]

The PMFer who just wrote this

I tell you this because i translate from English to French for European TVs and often stuff about tyranny vs. democracy, rights of immigrants, gays, Jews and Muslims, neo-nazis and freedom of expression, etc. etc. many simplistic ideas hurt my intelligence, and i often fight against the impulse of distorting or even stating the contrary on the sly; you'd have to have experience in both language for 20 years to notice the falsification. The same can be said about a lawyer who has decided to sell his client to the judge because he can't stand defending a scum, the scum wouldn't see it coming.
Now as a professional, the reason why you don't cheat is because it uses you up on the short term, weakens your position on the long term.

is a hard core guilter.

How?

There was a feminist who wrote an anti-Amanda Knox screed. I don't understand it myself.

 

[Machiavelli]

Now, it's obviously very easy for the police and PM to make earnest ex-post-facto declarations that they were actively seeking Mero, and even that they were literally minutes (or whatever) from reaching him and whisking him off post-haste to Perugia, but he just pipped them to the post. It's easy to claim that. But is it the truth....?

Anyhow, that's what my copy of "Darkness Descending" has to say on the issue, and it's very different in several critical respects from Machiavelli's version. But who knows: perhaps Machiavelli's copy of "Darkness Descending" has a different collection of words in it than my copy.......

By the way, Darkness Descending is not the only source, and obviously not my favourite source since it's full of errors (it also has a peculiar narrative about relation between police and media), however it never says that Mero was rebuffed on the phone.

But newspaper articles are not ex-post sources. The earliest written article already contains Mero's statements from his telephone conversation with the police on Nov. 11 (hence, on Nov. 10 journalists knew about it).
On Nov. 9 journalists had already told on TV that Swiss professor could be an alibi witness for Lumumba.

The news (article by Fiorenza Sarzanini of Nov. 11.) tell something more about the finding of the Swiss professor:

Il docente svizzero compare nell' inchiesta giovedì scorso. Durante l' udienza di convalida, Patrick nega di essere l' assassino, giura di non essere mai entrato nella stanza dove Meredith è stata uccisa. Dice di essere stato nel suo pub «Le Chic» «dalle 17.30, 18». Poi aggiunge: «Verso le 20 è arrivato un mio amico del Senegal di nome Usi... Al bar ci sono sempre stati clienti. Prima una ragazza belga che sta facendo l' Erasmus che è arrivata con quattro ragazzi, poi c' era un professore svizzero che alloggiava all' Hotel dei Priori di cui non ricordo il nome, poi è arrivata un' altra ragazza belga con degli amici». In tutto una decina di persone. Ai microfoni di Matrix, Usi ha confermato la circostanza, ha ricordato la presenza del professore, ma ha spiegato di non essere in grado di indicare quando è entrato nel bar. Anche i ragazzi belgi hanno detto di essere andati lì, «ma dopo le 22.15». Rimane dunque il docente. Per individuarlo sono stati sequestrati i registri dell' albergo. Gli investigatori lo hanno rintracciato e al telefono lui ha confermato l' alibi di Patrick. Ora dovrà però formalizzare il proprio racconto, entrare nei dettagli. Ci sono ancora moltissimi elementi da verificare, indizi da riscontrare

The Swiss professor has made his appearence in the investigation last Thursday. During the validation hearing Patrick denies being the murderer, swears he never entered the room where Meredith was killed. He says he was in his pub "Le Chic" since 17.30, 18. He adds "At about 20 a friend of mine came, nameed Usi, from Senegal... At there were customers the bar the whole time. First a Belgian girl who is on Erasmus arrived with four young men, then there was a Swiss professor who was staying at the "Hotel dei Priori", I cannot remember his name, then another Belgian girl arrived with friends ". A dozen people in total. Speaking to "Matrix" Usi confirmed the circumstance, he pointed out the presence of the professor in the bar, but said he wasn't able to indicate when he entered the bar. Even the Belgians young people said they went there "but after 22:15." Therefore, the professor remains. In order to identify him, they seized the Hotel records. Investigators have located him, and he confirmed Patrick's alibi speaking on the phone. Now, however, they will have to formalize his story, go into the details. There are still many things to verify, clues to be checked.

What it says is that a Swiss professor was among the "persons informed about facts" since Thurdsay, that means Patrick indicated him on Nov. 8. But he was unable to remember his name. So the police had seized the Hotel books and they identified him (this happened probably on Nov. 9).
At this point, Sarzanini doesn't go into details about how the Police managed to came into phone contact with him, she doesn't know that, she only says they finally managed to locate him, but it's clear from Sarzanini's article that the police was already looking for the Swiss professor before they could locate him, they were searching the hotel books to identify his name and they had managed to do so by Nov. 9. or 10.

 

[Samson]

So, just to take the 2 names I mentioned, you regard platonov and Mach as
unpleasant, vindictive, misanthropic bullies.

I’m crushed.

I will console myself with the knowledge that no other members here share your opinion.

As I have said before, I read all the posts following the Hellmann declaration of innocence, non involvement, scientific surety that Mignini had wrongly jailed three people before being handed the killer on a platter, no claim to cleverness possible. Fiona was a lone voice amidst the hateful rabble saying they deserved to be regarded as legally innocent.
She now looks forward to Amanda's extradition, but that is for her to reconcile.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

better still

If you can prove that Vecchiotti's qualifications are better than Sefanoni's Amanda goes free?

And Raffaele also.

 

[Machiavelli]

You mention both masonic involvement for Brizioli and the youth gang and larger mafia gang, AND, you also seem to suggest that the Narducci family WAS involved in a satanic sect, procuring body parts from the MOF murders for satanic rituals.

Is that in fact your position?

Can you explain what is the connection, if any, between the masonic conspiracy as you see it, and the 'satanic sect' conspiracy in the Narducci trail/MOF cases?

I am unable to explain the details of those two issues, because the side trackings performed by some Narducci family members and a number of other folks did succeed in blocking the investigations and preventing to discover the whole truth.

What do Masons have to do with Satanists?

I don't know almost anything about Satanism (I don't think any significant "Satanist" organization exists, actually). I think there have been some instances of "Satanism" - and "Black magic" or "exoterism" above all - meant as aspects of cultural fashion that have emerged sometimes as a hobby of upper class elites.
I point out that it seems more frequently an interest in occult, exoterism and magic, rituals that may have some devilish taste, rather than declared Satanism.

As for Masonry, I don't see any structural relation between Masonry and satanism.

Masonry had a powerful role in Italian history, it was a main motor of its unification, we can say it's among the pillars of the modern Nation in some way. Masonry is also something very "Italian" insofar as it is said to be the ideal heir of Pythagoras' secret society (established in the Calabrian town of Kroton more than five centuries b.C.), an ideal handed down through the Italian Reinassance tradition of secret societies.

And does this in any way relate to Jews

No.
Nothing to do as far as I know.

Although, there might be some historical relation between Masonry and the State of Israel (mostly because of the role of some prominent actors, above all the Rothschield family). But there is otherwise no relation at all betwen Jews and Satanism (except for literature, the fact that Satan is a charachter of the Bible).

However, also Roman Catholicism is supposed to have nothing to do with Paedophilia. But we know that there have been people who used the Catholic Church for purposes that were not on the book, and they keep on covering each other.

oh, btw, in a US trial at least, I think its unheard of that an accuser would not be put on the witness stand and subjected to cross-examination. But others may know more.

There is nothing that prevents the defence from calling Mignini to stand cross-examination. There is no legal obstacle to that. I just guess the defence won't do that, because it's not conventient to them.

 

[Desert Fox]

If you can prove that Vecchiotti's qualifications are better than Sefanoni's Amanda goes free?

It actually should not matter. . . . Even if Stefanoni really found Meredeth's DNA on the blade, there is not an unbroken chain of custody. Basically, it is actually useless as evidence.

 

[Machiavelli]

So, just to take the 2 names I mentioned, you regard platonov and Mach as
unpleasant, vindictive, misanthropic bullies.

I’m crushed.

I will console myself with the knowledge that no other members here share your opinion.

The 'innocentisti' don't love us.

As for me, I have to console myself with some Grappa di Sassicaia now.

 

[Dan O.]

So the police were searching hotel registrations to locate a Swiss professor that might have been in Patrick's bar that evening. Which hotel would they be searching? What name would they be looking for? Do the hotel registrations require the listing of nationality? Or occupation? This seems pretty far fetched for the police to be doing. They could better spend their time interviewing potential witnesses in the apartments surrounding the cottage. Or collecting the videos from the other cameras in the surrounding streets.

Now I have no doubt that the police checked the hotel registrations. Once they had a name of the guest and the name of the hotel, they would look to discredit the witness against them if the registration didn't confirm that the professor was in town that night.

 

[Dan O.]

It actually should not matter. . . . Even if Stefanoni really found Meredeth's DNA on the blade, there is not an unbroken chain of custody. Basically, it is actually useless as evidence.

Did the police even have a "search" warrant when they acquired the knife?

 

[Machiavelli]

Well you got part of the way to a retraction but it was more than you could bear to finish it. Your attempt to defame Carla Vecchiotti is entirely predicated upon your obsession with her (and others) belonging to the enemy camp of those whose work has contributed to the widespread acceptance that Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito are innocent.

There is nothing I need to retract - my mistaking the word coroner instead of forensic pathologist is only a language issue - the only merit of my point was that Vecchiotti's job was to deal with post-mortem body examinations, and that she had been working for decades inside the institute that was shut down.

The bottom line is that Vecchiotti's job was to examine bodies, and she was in the very facility that was shut down. She was not doing something else somewhere else like LJ maintained.

She is not a coroner. She does not work in the mortuary. She is Director of a Forensic Laboratory. She is a forensic scientist.

Her curriculum speaks very clearly: she had been working for decades exactly at the facility that was shut down.
She was there not somewhere else. The whole institute was closed, not just a room, not just a "mortuary", the whole institute was considered chaotic and unreliable because of the way it was managed.
Moreover Vecchiotti used to provide counsel to authorize transplants, that was the work she was paid for according to her CV, in order to do that you need to deal with corpses as job, not to stay in chemical laboratories.

The malfunction of the whole Academic institute of Legal Medicine of La Sapienza may have something to do with how its personnel is chosen:

http://roma.repubblica.it/cronaca/2013/09/29/news/sapienza_giallo_sul_concorso_di_medicina_legale_e_il_bando_finisce_al_consiglio_di_stato-67492066/

 

[Machiavelli]

So the police were searching hotel registrations to locate a Swiss professor that might have been in Patrick's bar that evening. Which hotel would they be searching?

The Hotel Dei Priori.

What name would they be looking for? Do the hotel registrations require the listing of nationality? Or occupation?

Of course. Hotels in Italy require guests to present theit ID documents. All guests must do that.

This seems pretty far fetched for the police to be doing. They could better spend their time interviewing potential witnesses in the apartments surrounding the cottage. Or collecting the videos from the other cameras in the surrounding streets.

This comments are a pointless loss of time, leading the discussion off-topic. The police did collect videos from cameras in the surrounding streets.

Now I have no doubt that the police checked the hotel registrations. Once they had a name of the guest and the name of the hotel, they would look to discredit the witness against them if the registration didn't confirm that the professor was in town that night.

There was no witness "against them".

There was just a potential witness, indicated by two people (Patrick and Usi) and they obviously had to find him.
You really don't need to add anything to what is obvious.

 

[Machiavelli]

Did the police even have a "search" warrant when they acquired the knife?

Of course they had a search warrant.

 

[Bill Williams]

I had posted at least two newspaper sources reporting she was a researcher at Naples University for years before joining the Scientific Police. I put researcher in italic fonts because ths title has a specific contextual meaning in the Italian academic rules.



It is only and solely on others to prove their assertion. Why? But it is obvious. For two reasons. First, and foremost, because it is an innocentisti argument.
The innocentisti are the ones who brought the theory "Stefanoni is less qualifies than Vecchiotti and COnti" on internet forums.
They brought it, they stated the theory first, it has been discussed only because they build this argument out of their own initiative.
Second, because it is a potentially defamatory argument. It it's false, you are guilty of defamation. Since it's information potentially detrimental to someone's reputation, and may be false, you have an intrinsic duty to verify that before stating it.



Not exactly. Indeed there are some people who are more credible than others or presumed truthful, but there are also statements that carry a burden of proof because of their nature, there are rules, and this is the part you need to learn.

I guess, then, following your logic - that when la Repubblica calls her a "former researcher" this means that la Repubblica has reason to believe her Ph.D. has been revoked!

Well played, Machiavelli.

 

[Machiavelli]

I guess, then, following your logic - that when la Repubblica calls her a "former researcher" this means that la Repubblica has reason to believe her Ph.D. has been revoked!

Well played, Machiavelli.

What do you think you will achieve by trying nonsense puns?

I'm starting to believe this is your true hobby.

 

[tsig]

What do you think you will achieve by trying nonsense puns?

I'm starting to believe this is your true hobby.

When the verdict comes down they will have to rename this Tears and Excuses.

 

[Desert Fox]

Of course they had a search warrant.

And that they only took one knife and do not have a solid chain of custody is no nevermind to you?