Continuation Part 13: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Numbers]

mmmm..interesting. Is there anything that should be excised from the events of the interrogation that would only be excised by an Art 3 violation and not by an Art 6 violation? in other words: What does Art 3 give Ms Knox that Art 6 does not give her?

That's an interesting question. Certainly, Dayanan v Turkey would indicate that the statements Amanda Knox wrote while in custody but after interrogation, in which she did not have counsel, would not be admissible against her for conviction of any crime. I am unsure what the ECHR would judge about the Article 3 breaking of will in terms of how long that may be considered to be in effect after interrogation. It seems to me that the levels of uncertainty, which are greater in Memoriale I than in Memoriale II, would indicate to them and other objective persons a gradual return of her will and memory toward but not to an exact normal state. In other words, she expresses more confidence in her memory in Memoriale II.

 

[Numbers]

Reconsider my statement?! Vecchiotti is a coroner, and has always worked as such. Medico legale e delle assicurazioni means coroner.

Her CV is online. Your statements are false. She is a specialist in forensics. She is a professor, not a coroner. A "coroner" in English is a state (or county) official who determines the cause of death of persons who have died under uncertain circumstances; now often replaced by "medical examiner".

Here is part of Carla Vecchiotti's CV {Google Translation}:
1.1 - 1976 degree in Medicine and Surgery with 110/110 cum laude degree from the University of
Rome "Sapienza"
1.2 - 1976 certification in the practice at the University of Rome "Sapienza"
1.3- 1978 winner of the public to ten posts of Inspector (role doctors) at FS
1.4 - 1979 specialist diploma in Legal Medicine and Insurance with 70/70 and honors from
the University of Rome "Sapienza" with a thesis entitled "Investigation of system factors
Gm in the population of L'Aquila "
1.5 - 1981 Diploma in Culture Course in Social Medicine held at the University of
Rome "Sapienza" vote with 30/30 and praise

1.6 - 1986 internship at the Institute for Forensic Science in Budapest (Hungary) for a period of
update on instrumental techniques of personal identification of traces of blood, tissues and fluids
Organic non-blood
1.7 - 1983 Researcher for the scientific sector F22B at the Faculty of Medicine and Surgery
University of Rome "Sapienza", located to the full-time and, simultaneously, framed in
scientific sector MED / 43
1.8 - 1987 Researcher for the scientific sector F22B (MED 43) at the Institute of
Forensic Medicine of the University of Rome "Sapienza"
1.9 - 1987 Assistant at the S.S. Forensic Medicine I- Cons. January Trap. University of Rome
"Sapienza"
1:10 - 1991 Medical Director at the S.S. Forensic Medicine I-Consulting General Transplantation University
University of Rome "Sapienza"
1.11 - 2005 Suitability (DR n. 2749 of 16.12.2005) in the comparative evaluation for recruitment to n. 1
place for tenured university professor of band II for the scientific sector MED / 43
(Forensic Medicine), at the Faculty of Medicine, University of Bologna
1.12 - 2007 (DR n. 1395/07 of 30 October 2007) University professor of Role II band for the sector s / d
MED / 43 with the rank of Associate Professor (Forensic Medicine) with incardinamento in Degree
Techniques in Orthopaedics (CLUPS) of Latina
1:13 - 2008 (DR No. 3316 of February 27, 2008) Belonging at the Department of Forensic Medicine
(Currently the Department of anatomical, histological, forensic and of the musculoskeletal system -
Section of Legal Medicine) of the University "Sapienza" of Rome
1:14 - 2010 (DR No. 2774 of 29.08.2011) appointment as Associate Professor from dl
01.11.2010) for the scientific sector MED / 43 "Legal Medicine" of the 'University
"Sapienza" of Rome.

 

[Kauffer]

Reconsider my statement?! Vecchiotti is a coroner, and has always worked as such. Medico legale e delle assicurazioni means coroner.

So?

I asked you when and where she worked as a coroner. You don't seem to be able to answer.

Currently she is Associate Professor of Forensic Medicine and Director of the Laboratory of Forensic Genetics at Sapienza University. She works from the School of Forensic Medicine in the Department of Anatomical Science Histology and Forensic Medicine

Here's her cv in English:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.uniroma1.it/&prev=search

And Italian:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.uniroma1.it/&prev=search

 

[Numbers]

More from Carla Vecciotti's CV {Google Translation}:

ACTIVITY 'SCIENTIFIC
(Research domains of interest and places to conduct such research, with collaborations etc.)
Conducts research in the field of forensic genetics, personal identification and sexual violence.
And 'Director of Forensic Genetics Laboratory of the Department of anatomical, histological,
forensic and locomotor apparatus - Section Forensic Medicine, University "Sapienza" of Rome,
where conducts surveys on identifying personal and parental reports on the ascertained.
From this research are derived monographs, chapters in books and works in full.
He participated as a speaker at numerous national and international conferences where intervened on
themes Forensic Genetics.
And 'member of the following scientific societies:
- Italian Society of Legal Medicine and Insurance since 1993
- Geneticists Forensic Italian (GE.F.I.)
- Participated in the Workshop of the Working Group of ISFG Speaking Inglese (ESWG RTW) in the year
2008
- Participated in the Workshop of the Working Group of ISFG Speaking Inglese (ESWG RTW) in the year
2010
- Participated collaborative exercise "Database Y-SNPs" coordinated by the University of
Marche.
- Participated as a contributor to scientific research coordinated by the Department of Zoology,
University of Oxford, Oxford, UK, (publication pending).
____
Note that the above scientific activities are related to forensics and genetics.

 

[Numbers]

Another page from Carla Vecciotti's CV (Google Translated}. The point of all this is to show the utter falsehood of Mach's statement. I would urge all readers here to approach with skepticism and verify statements.

Participated as a contributor to six "COFIN Projects of National Interest" in the Unit of Research
coordinated by prof. Alfredo Cup Department of Environmental Biology, University "Sapienza"
Rome.
Has organized the following sessions in Conferences:
- Sudden death: integrated multidisciplinary approach. IX Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 21 to 23 June 2006).
- Old problems and new perspectives in forensic genetics. X Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 26 to 28 June 2007).
- Investigations and evidence in crimes of pedophilia. XI Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress
SIMLA (Rome, 17 to 19 June 2008).
- Technical advice and expertise: quality control, training, criteriology choices. XII Days
forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 23 to 25 June 2009).
- The role of forensic genetics in the legal system in force. XIII Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 15 to 17 June 2010).
- Cold Case: Scientific advances and analysis of the test. Comparing experiences. XIV Days medicolegal
Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 14 to 16 June 2011).
He has participated as REPORTING TO CONFERENCES listed below.
- Report on "Personal identification: current problems and possible solutions" under the X
Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 26 to 28 June 2007).
- Report on "The physical signs of sexual abuse" within the XI Days medicolegal
Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 17 to 19 June 2008).
- Report on the theme "Quality control in the field of technical advice" under the XII
Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 23 to 25 June 2009).

 

[Kauffer]

On the subject of CVs, where is Stefanoni's?

I emailed Polizia Scientifica and kindly asked them to forward me Patrizia Stefanoni's CV for background information in connection with some research I'm doing about the Meredith Kercher murder.

They refused:

"About your request, sorry but the policy of our organization do not allow us to provide you information concerning people of our institute."

It was "signed" by the Director though, so I'm chuffed, of course.

 

[Diocletus]

That's an interesting question. Certainly, Dayanan v Turkey would indicate that the statements Amanda Knox wrote while in custody but after interrogation, in which she did not have counsel, would not be admissible against her for conviction of any crime. I am unsure what the ECHR would judge about the Article 3 breaking of will in terms of how long that may be considered to be in effect after interrogation. It seems to me that the levels of uncertainty, which are greater in Memoriale I than in Memoriale II, would indicate to them and other objective persons a gradual return of her will and memory toward but not to an exact normal state. In other words, she expresses more confidence in her memory in Memoriale II.

My understanding is that the Article 3 exclusionary rule is absolute, whereas the Article 6 exclusionary rule is subject to the "test" described in Ibrahim. In theory, the Art. 6 "test" could result in the admissibility of a statement taken in violation of procedural rights, whereas a statement that is derived from torture/degrading conduct can never be used, under any circumstances.

I don't think its a critical distinction in this case, because I think the Article 6 test will result in the inadmissibility of the statements taken in violation of Knox's procedural rights.

 

[Diocletus]

I emailed Polizia Scientifica and kindly asked them to forward me Patrizia Stefanoni's CV for background information in connection with some research I'm doing about the Meredith Kercher murder.

They refused:

"About your request, sorry but the policy of our organization do not allow us to provide you information concerning people of our institute."

It was "signed" by the Director though, so I'm chuffed, of course.

Wot? Suppressed? But Machiavelli promised that this thing would be readily available!

 

[Strozzi]

We already talked about how this doesn't describe reality. The police found several witnesses, two or three testified that the bar was open, only one said it was closed, albeit at an earlier hour, that didn't fit the police "need". Those saying the bar was open however only covered limited time frames or couldn't tell if Lumumba was there. So again you don't represent reality in your statements.

How many hours did the police question the Swiss professor who came to them to affirm that he was in Le Chic that evening until late and conversed with Lumumba periodically throughout? He presented a receipt to document it, didn't he?

Seems to me that the Police could have taken (accepted) his statement in 15 minutes. Why did they question him for many hours?

He was a big problem for them. He was an exculpatory witness and not somebody they could detain for a five-year-old crime like Curatolo to prevent talking to journalists and defense counsel. The Swiss professor destroyed their case against Lumumba. Not only were they going to have to release Lumumba, but it messed up the orchestrated scenario they had constructed against Knox and Sollecito.

 

[MDDVS]

Wot? Suppressed? But Machiavelli promised that this thing would be readily available!

Lulz

 

[carbonjam72]

I emailed Polizia Scientifica and kindly asked them to forward me Patrizia Stefanoni's CV for background information in connection with some research I'm doing about the Meredith Kercher murder.

They refused:

"About your request, sorry but the policy of our organization do not allow us to provide you information concerning people of our institute."

It was "signed" by the Director though, so I'm chuffed, of course.

Maybe if you said you were researching an article on the 'best most advanced DNA labs and most innovative lab technicians in the world', and named a few people including Stefanoni in the middle of a longer list?

If Stef works or worked at a University, wouldn't her resume be public record? It's pretty clear from an earlier article that came up recently, Stef still thinks her methods of detection, ignoring contamination are the gold standard. She doesn't get her error, and is likely to keep repeating them until she is reigned in by some professional organization. Does Italy have any?

 

[js202]

caso chiuso

Another page from Carla Vecciotti's CV (Google Translated}. The point of all this is to show the utter falsehood of Mach's statement. I would urge all readers here to approach with skepticism and verify statements.

Participated as a contributor to six "COFIN Projects of National Interest" in the Unit of Research
coordinated by prof. Alfredo Cup Department of Environmental Biology, University "Sapienza"
Rome.
Has organized the following sessions in Conferences:
- Sudden death: integrated multidisciplinary approach. IX Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 21 to 23 June 2006).
- Old problems and new perspectives in forensic genetics. X Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 26 to 28 June 2007).
- Investigations and evidence in crimes of pedophilia. XI Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress
SIMLA (Rome, 17 to 19 June 2008).
- Technical advice and expertise: quality control, training, criteriology choices. XII Days
forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 23 to 25 June 2009).
- The role of forensic genetics in the legal system in force. XIII Days forensic Roman and European and
Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 15 to 17 June 2010).
- Cold Case: Scientific advances and analysis of the test. Comparing experiences. XIV Days medicolegal
Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 14 to 16 June 2011).
He has participated as REPORTING TO CONFERENCES listed below.
- Report on "Personal identification: current problems and possible solutions" under the X
Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 26 to 28 June 2007).
- Report on "The physical signs of sexual abuse" within the XI Days medicolegal
Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 17 to 19 June 2008).
- Report on the theme "Quality control in the field of technical advice" under the XII
Days forensic Roman and European Annual Congress SIMLA (Rome, 23 to 25 June 2009).

But, of course, such accomplishments are a pitiful bulwark against the sheer force of confirmation bias *demanding* Vecchiotti be a paid stooge. Oh, and a mere coroner. And Stefanoni - whose CV remains a mystery which ILE is apparently pleased to enforce - an accomplished, shining beacon of equity and science whose lab has never had an incident of contamination.

It really is time to begin ignoring the lunatic ramblings of persons who refuse to confront evidence and rational argumentation on their obvious face value.

 

[Numbers]

My understanding is that the Article 3 exclusionary rule is absolute, whereas the Article 6 exclusionary rule is subject to the "test" described in Ibrahim. In theory, the Art. 6 "test" could result in the admissibility of a statement taken in violation of procedural rights, whereas a statement that is derived from torture/degrading conduct can never be used, under any circumstances.

I don't think its a critical distinction in this case, because I think the Article 6 test will result in the inadmissibility of the statements taken in violation of Knox's procedural rights.

Yes, you are correct that the Article 6 exclusion relies on the 5-point test laid down in Ibrahim et al. v the UK. Analysis of Amanda Knox's situation against that test suggests strongly that her statements without benefit of counsel would indeed be excluded. Thus her statements must be excluded under either ECHR case-law provision.

In addition, her conviction by Hellmann for calunnia did not follow from the totality of the evidence that Hellmann presented in the motivation report; rather, that presentation showed that the statements were the products of a procedurally illegal and coercive interrogation, and thus not usable under Italian law, constitution, or ECHR case-law. Thus, the conviction was the product of arbitrary reasoning, and therefore under ECHR case-law, unfair, a violation itself of Article 6.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

the distinction between full and partial profiles is not very meaningful

"It is also possible for one individual to transfer DNA that has originated from another person (secondary transfer). Initial experiments involved a good and poor DNA shedder shaking hands for a period of 1 min after which the poor shedder immediately gripped an inert object for 10 s. Consistently, where one particular pair of individuals was involved, the full profile of the good shedder was transferred to the object and that of the poor shedder could not be detected. The study was then repeated employing a time delay of 30 min between handshaking and object-holding. Mixed profiles were recovered from the object; full and partial profiles from the good and poor shedder, respectively. Analysis of mixture proportions revealed that approximately 70% of the total DNA was that of the good shedder; the individual who had not had any direct contact with the item.'" From A. Lowe, et al., "Use of low copy number DNA in forensic inference," International Congress Series 1239 (2003) 799–801.

Given that secondary transfer produced a full profile and primary transfer produced a partial profile in this experiment, there is no reason to focus myopically on only transfers that produces a full profile, as some in the PG community do. I have previously documented the existence of a fivefold contact transfer of a partial profile, among other pieces of evidence.

With respect to Machiavelli's incorrect assertion, a simple PubMed search on Carla Vecchiotti turned up a number of papers.

 

[Bill Williams]

But, of course, such accomplishments are a pitiful bulwark against the sheer force of confirmation bias *demanding* Vecchiotti be a paid stooge. Oh, and a mere coroner. And Stefanoni - whose CV remains a mystery which ILE is apparently pleased to enforce - an accomplished, shining beacon of equity and science whose lab has never had an incident of contamination.

It really is time to begin ignoring the lunatic ramblings of persons who refuse to confront evidence and rational argumentation on their obvious face value.

My view is that Machiavelli knows how to post Stefanoni's C.V., and now simply will not. Just before his last hiatus, he challenged us to find it and said the subject no longer interested him.

 

[Desert Fox]

My view is that Machiavelli knows how to post Stefanoni's C.V., and now simply will not. Just before his last hiatus, he challenged us to find it and said the subject no longer interested him.

Is it still the same Machiavelli?

 

[Bill Williams]

Reconsider my statement?! Vecchiotti is a coroner, and has always worked as such. Medico legale e delle assicurazioni means coroner.

So?

I asked you when and where she worked as a coroner. You don't seem to be able to answer.

Currently she is Associate Professor of Forensic Medicine and Director of the Laboratory of Forensic Genetics at Sapienza University. She works from the School of Forensic Medicine in the Department of Anatomical Science Histology and Forensic Medicine

Here's her cv in English:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.uniroma1.it/&prev=search

And Italian:

http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=it&u=http://www.uniroma1.it/&prev=search

For some reason, Machiavelli is simply unable to tell the truth about the most basic of facts about the players in the DNA analyses at trial. Machiavelli is tremendously interested in constructing a reality about them....

1) Stefanoni is a Ph.D. (with no known thesis, and probably not a doctor by standards other than the low ones in Italy)

2) Vecchiotti is "only a coroner", despite proof displayed that she is a professor of Forensic Medicine and a practitioner of Forensic Genetics at a major Italian university.​

Something must be at stake for Machiavelli, and those he posts to protect. It's amazing, though, that he would post transparent lies.

ETA - from here, Machiavelli will post some dietrology to dispute these undisputable facts. He will then declare that it is not important, because of judges like Massei and Nencini, who can see no reason why Stefanoni would lie to the court.

There's the problem there. It is the judges' eyesight.

 

[Bill Williams]

Is it still the same Machiavelli?

I cannot keep track. "Machiavelli" himself has addressed this - saying that the variations in English usage belongs to his own varying weariness, and ability to go back over and refine a post once composed.

Who knows?

 

[Bill Williams]

Another page from Carla Vecciotti's CV (Google Translated}. The point of all this is to show the utter falsehood of Mach's statement. I would urge all readers here to approach with skepticism and verify statements.

Participated as a contributor to six "COFIN Projects of National Interest" in the Unit of Research
coordinated by prof. Alfredo Cup Department of Environmental Biology, University "Sapienza"
Rome.
Has organized the following sessions in Conferences:

Look! Proof right there that Vecchiotti is only a coroner!

 

[Bill Williams]

Machiavelli - have you found Stefanoni's C.V.? Something tells me we won't be hearing from you much on this....

I am not even searching for it.

You are perfectly able to retrieve her CV yourself by writing an e-mail, if you need it.

This is Machiavelli's final position on whether or not Stefanoni has a Ph.D., and deserves the title "Doctor", in the sense of having defended a Ph.D. thesis.