Merged Continuation Part 2: Discussion of the George Zimmerman case

Serious question, Zig: Are you under the impression that any time a person punches someone else that it is automatically the crime of assault?

What are you talking about? Nobody punched anyone. Zimmerman head-butted Martin's hands. That's the facts, and there isn't a shred of evidence that anything else happened. Zimmerman is totally guilty.
 
You're the one claiming Martin ran in terror from Zimmerman, and that was several minutes prior to the confrontation.

I made no such claim. You are lying. And rather poorly, I might add.

And no, a stranger following you with his hand in his pocket is not a license to attack them in Florida or any other state.

No one claimed "a hand in his pocket" is what prompted Martin to punch Zimmerman. So that's another lie.

WildCat, is it your position that when a person who has established themselves as a potential threat (a stranger who does not identify himself or announce his intentions watching you and following you home at night) makes a quick move for his pocket, that it is unreasonable to believe you might need to defend yourself?
 
What are you talking about? Nobody punched anyone. Zimmerman head-butted Martin's hands. That's the facts, and there isn't a shred of evidence that anything else happened. Zimmerman is totally guilty.

Oh okay, you're not actually interested in having a discussion.

Never mind then.
 
My claim is that Martin assaulted Zimmerman, and it is backed up by the available evidence.
Is it also your claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first? I believe that it once was your position, is it still?

If so, what evidence supports that?

You're claiming that Zimmerman assaulted Martin, and you have yet to provide a shred of evidence supporting that.
You will not find my having made that claim in either part of this thread, because I never have. That is, that Zimmerman assaulted Martin first.

So before we have a "first" you have to establish there was a "second", which you have not done.
Well, I think it's fairly established that Zimmerman and Martin had assaulted one another that evening, even if Zimmerman claimed he did so in self defense. Do you need evidence that Martin hit Zimmerman or that Zimmerman shot Martin?
 
He did make it when he asked who assaulted who "first". You can't have a first without a second, and therefore Upchurch is indeed claiming there was an assault by Zimmerman upon Martin.

Upchurch is making the only claim that critical thinkers can make with the available evidence: We don't know who started the altercation.

People like you claim as a fact Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

I have made the argument that Martin could very well have been defending himself against Zimmerman.

That argument has yet to be refuted or even remotely or competently challenged.

Therefore, it is unreasonable to assert - absent any factual substantiation - that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

But hey, we could end this whole thing right now if you - or anyone else - simply provided the evidence that proves Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

Somehow, I doubt that evidence will be forthcoming.

Maybe you can help him out?

Who's helping you gather the evidence to prove your claim?
 
Upchurch is making the only claim that critical thinkers can make with the available evidence: We don't know who started the altercation.

People like you claim as a fact Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

I have made the argument that Martin could very well have been defending himself against Zimmerman.

That argument has yet to be refuted or even remotely or competently challenged.

Therefore, it is unreasonable to assert - absent any factual substantiation - that Martin assaulted Zimmerman.
That's pretty much my position, as well, and has been the vast majority of this thread(s).
 
I made no such claim. You are lying. And rather poorly, I might add.
Now you're claiming Martin wasn't trying to get away from Zimmerman? This scenario gets different every time you tell it!

No one claimed "a hand in his pocket" is what prompted Martin to punch Zimmerman. So that's another lie.

WildCat, is it your position that when a person who has established themselves as a potential threat (a stranger who does not identify himself or announce his intentions watching you and following you home at night) makes a quick move for his pocket, that it is unreasonable to believe you might need to defend yourself?
Your confusion over self defense law is not evidence.
 
Upchurch is making the only claim that critical thinkers can make with the available evidence: We don't know who started the altercation.

But if this is true, then his acquittal would have to be the unambiguously correct legal decision, rather than a tragic miscarriage of justice by an obviously racist jury.

My world is falling apart! :faint:
 
Is it also your claim that Martin assaulted Zimmerman first? I believe that it once was your position, is it still?

If so, what evidence supports that?
It is my claim that the only evidence of an assault is Martin assaulting Zimmerman.

Do you have evidence of Zimmerman assaulting Martin?

Well, I think it's fairly established that Zimmerman and Martin had assaulted one another that evening, even if Zimmerman claimed he did so in self defense. Do you need evidence that Martin hit Zimmerman or that Zimmerman shot Martin?
Is it now your contention that Martin attacked Zimmerman after he was shot in the heart?
 
But if this is true, then his acquittal would have to be the unambiguously correct legal decision
Yes. However, the legal decision only tells that the court could not find Zimmerman guilty. It does not guarantee his innocence, as has been implied (and sometimes outright stated) by some on this thread.
 
Yes. However, the legal decision only tells that the court could not find Zimmerman guilty. It does not guarantee his innocence, as has been implied (and sometimes outright stated) by some on this thread.
Where does the preponderance of the evidence lie?
 
It is my claim that the only evidence of an assault is Martin assaulting Zimmerman.

Do you have evidence of Zimmerman assaulting Martin?


Is it now your contention that Martin attacked Zimmerman after he was shot in the heart?
No. Your contention was that in order for their to have been a first, it must be established that there was a "second". We know that Martin assaulted Zimmerman that night and we know that Zimmerman assaulted Martin that night. Of course, this is all a red hearing, since it doesn't inform us who assaulted whom first.
 
But if this is true, then his acquittal would have to be the unambiguously correct legal decision, rather than a tragic miscarriage of justice by an obviously racist jury.

My world is falling apart! :faint:

This might be too nuanced a point for some people to grasp, but I'll make it anyway.

It is possible that Zimmerman both initiated the altercation and did not murder Martin.

So the question of whether or not Martin assaulted Zimmerman has no bearing on Zimmerman's guilt or innocence regarding the murder charge.
 
Where does the preponderance of the evidence lie?
As far as I've seen, the only evidence concerning to who assaulted whom first is Zimmerman's testimony of events, who has a vested interest in making those events appear to be in his favor. The only other person who can speak to them is dead.

I'd say that, on this question, there is no preponderance of the evidence.

Unless, of course, you'd like to present evidence to support your claim?
 
Now you're claiming Martin wasn't trying to get away from Zimmerman? This scenario gets different every time you tell it!

No, I'm saying that I never claimed Martin "ran in terror from Zimmerman".

That's just a lie you told.

And by the way, Martin did run away from Zimmerman.

This is a fact established by Zimmerman's own NEN call.

People actually familiar with the details know this.
 
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Regarding the notion of whether it is reasonable or not to believe that Martin might have been acting in self-defense when he punched Zimmerman, I'll just leave this here.

An excerpt from one of Detective Serino's interviews with Zimmerman:
Serino: Okay, so by not, were you, your job’s not to really to do anything at all when it comes to that kind of, it wasn’t your job...
Zimmerman: [inaudible]
Serino: … to monitor him either, but for future reference, I mean you can usually dismiss a lot of this kind of insanity… I mean, had that been done, and that’s, you know, and from our vantage point, you’ve had two opportunities to identify yourself as somebody who was actually not meaning to do him harm. Problem being, is that we’re visiting in his mind’s eye, which I can’t get into because he’s passed, that he perceives you as a threat. Okay, he perceives you as a threat, he has every right to go and defend himself, especially when you reach into your pocket to grab a cell phone.


So tell me, WildCat, is this law enforcement officer from Florida just experiencing "confusion over self-defense law"?
 
But hey, we could end this whole thing right now if you - or anyone else - simply provided the evidence that proves Martin assaulted Zimmerman.

While not undeniable proof, there are slme things I certainly find to be compelling reasons to believe Trayon did assault Zimmerman:

1.) The evidence that Trayvon doubled back and traveled a significant distance away from his destination in order to confront Zimmerman at the T - via timeline, NEN call, debris trail, witnesses hearing an aggressive confrontational voice at T responded to by a softer voice and then the sound of an attack which moved south rapidly which all fits Zimmerman's account, Jeantel testimony (not gonna run, by his father's house, gun not out, whoopbutt, swung first, actin' like security), Brandi Green's implication that Trayvon had been on the porch (I suspect he left items there he didn't want on him if Zimmerman proved to be a real authority figure or accompanied by one) etc.

2.) As stated before, the best explanation of Jeantel's post-call behavior and refusal to come forward is that she knew Trayvon had an illegal assault planned. Her behavior is completely inconsistent with a situation where she believed Trayvon to be legally in the right, or an innocent victim of Zimmerman's actions. Her actions fit perfectly with her knowing an assault was the entire purpose of confronting the stranger, and viewing Trayvon and maybe even herself as the culpable parties in need of deception and laying low.

3.) Zimmerman's account and how well it fit evidence.

4.) Zimmerman having all the injuries and injuries which spoke to a one sided attack.

5.) Trayvon's actions when witness 6 came out, as described by both he and Zimmerman. They speak to someone lost on violent rage, not someone merely seeking to subdue a threat and defend themselves who has just been presented with a third party who could assist.

6.) The dominant nature of Trayvon's position straddling Zimmerman. This fits more with a surprise assault of a vicious nature done out of anger and which has taken the victim off guard both in happening at all, and in how vicious and relentless it is. It fits less well with a give and take between two people.

7.) Zimmerman's terrified screams sand begging witness 6 for help fit better with a dominated victim who hadn't anticipated a physical confrontation, rather than someone who knowingly escalated by trying to detain, attack, or hold at gunpoint. His actions fit an overmatched person who was not in the right headspace for a physical fight but found himself in one anyway.

8.) The very fact that Zimmerman ended up shooting Trayvon is indicative. He's been calmly speaking on the phone moments before, as he voluntarily sought to alert, involve, and summon law enforcement to the scene. He was seeking to have THEM, not himself, resolve the matter. He did not sound agitated or angry on the phone to me, particularly toward the end as it became very casual and matter of fact. The worst he ever sounded to me was frustrated, when he first saw Trayvon run for it. Under these circumstances, what sort of things would need to happen in a mere two minutes or so from the call ending to get him to the point where he was willing to take the life of another human being whom he'd only suspected might be casing houses, up to that point? A vicious, relentless, terrifying and unexpected assault would fit the bill. A confrontation he had initiated and knew he had initiated, and which was of a character consistent with Trayvon merely trying to neutralize any threat he posed, which would be obvious to him, and which he knew would be settled soon and definitively by police hed summoned, is NOT consistent with him deciding to shoot another human being for the first time, and in the process put himself in enormous legal peril.

If Trayvon were just trying to stop this guy from accessing a weapon and harming him, I'd expect it to involve pinning his arms and asking "what the heck man?" and then calling out to John Good for assistance. Not wailing away on a prone, terrified, screaming victim heedless of his pleas, his not fighting back, and heedless of the witness's arrival and directive to cease.

9.) I also find compelling Trayvon's history of fighting, including him telling a female friend that he'd beaten a snitch but would be beating him again because the snitch's injuries hadn't been sufficient to satisfy his literal bloodlust, and another exchange where he affirmed that he wasn't merely a hoodlum but in fact a gangsta, and in which his friend cautioned him that his violent ways would result in him "getting one in yo chest" as the indeed did.

All this and more take me to a place of high confidence that he criminally assaulted Zimmerman and knew he was not justified in doing so by the standards of civilized people. Not certainty, but high confidence. Did he feel he was justified by his own lights? Probably. Does anyone ever not?

I also strongly suspect he knew exactly what Zimmerman's deal was, and that identifying himself was unnecessary. A concerned neighbor is just a fancy word for a nosy snitch in Trayvon's world.
 
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